I am now a Muzzle loading hunter

snake284-1snake284-1 Senior MemberPosts: 2,500 Senior Member
With Teach's expert enabling and advice, I have entered the world of Muzzle Loading shooting and hunting.

I am hoplessly addicted now. He lined me up with a nice, like new Thomson Center 50 cal. Renegade! I'm in love. I had my ups and downs this weekend but I'm learning and it's great. Once you shoot one, there's nothing like it. It addicts you fast.

I always said I wanted to go Flint. But with Teach's common sense advice, I went percussion to learn on. And I'm happy I did. There's a learnng curve you need to get by before you try flint. There's more to flint than meets the eye. Infact there's more to black powder and Muzzle loading in general than meets the eye. I don't think inline would be my cup of tea, but I've learned something else here, never say never. Once you get a taste of it, there's no telling what will happen.

For one thing, it's a break from the norm. I still love my centerfire rifles and always will, but this gives me a break and something else to keep from getting into a monotinous rut.

Another thing it allows you opportunities to hunt more. This special season adds two weeks to regular deer season.

And another thing, it's a challenge above regular hunting.
So, with all that, it's a winning proposition for me.

Anyway, here's what happened and how things lead up to this weekend.
I found out a couple weeks ago there was a Muzzle Loading season sometime in January in the county I hunt in. I didn't know when it started and didn't pursue it too hard because I didn't have a black powder gun. Then I mentioned it on here and Teach gave me some options. Then he found out about a deal at a local gun store in Tennessee. He said he'd buy it and send it to me if I wanted it. So I got the money together ad sent it and he sent the rifle. I figured the season would be over before I got it, but figured it would be good for next year. But lo and beghold the rifle showed up Friday.

As soon as I saw the rifle had arrived, I packed up and went to Victoria to get some powder and balls and stuff. I told the saleman at my favorite Gun Shop what I had and what I needed. He evidently didn't know beans from Shinola and sold me powder in pellet form for an inline. Well, at that point I didn't know an inline from a hole in the ground. So I bought into it. With Teach's advice on the phone though I realized my mistakes and went back and got the right stuff. I got a can fo Tripple 7. Teach suggested something else, but that was all they had. He said it'd work though.

Anyway, I got most everything I needed, but had a party that I was one of the guest of honors at that I had to attened Saturday (My sister's 70th Jan.21, my 65th, Jan. 22, and my mother's 90th, Jan. 23rd Birthday party. Finally on Sunday mnorning my friend Arnold and I went to the lease. I had seen a mega buck on Saturday Morning before I went to victoria to exchange the powder, and figured he'd be back around the same place.

First off though I needed to shoot the rifle to sight it in and learn all the particulars on how to load it and everything. Here again Teach came through and coached me through everything. Well the first shot, I missed the paper completely. But after I made a slight adjustment in elevation it was right on. So I went hunting. Arnold and I went hunting. I put Arnold in my blind to see if he could see a hog and I took off in my Suburban to find that big deer. But he was no place to be found. So I went back to my specific area and called Arnold's cell phone and told him to get out of the blind and we would walk around. So I met him by the feeder and we walked through the brush and trees to the back of the lease.

I sat on the fence at the back of the lease in the trees and brush and Arnold went to a blind a couple of hundred yards up the fence line where it overlooked a hay meadow. I sat there for two hours and Arnold comes walking up and tells me about three big bucks he saw playing in the hay meadow and he said they went back into the tree line and back toward my feeder, he thought. We then walked the fence line to a gap in the brush that lead to my blind which was about 1/4 mile away. We got up in the blind and sat til dark.

About 5 PM here comes a rockin chair. A nice buck, not quite as big as the one I had seen Saturday morning, but he was a shooter and he was nice. He crossed the sendero and came into the field where my feeder is. Here was my only shot, 150 yards out. But I figured as good as this muzzleloader was shooting that morning, it would do the job. I took careful aim at the top of his back above and behind the shoulder an inch or so. "PoP!" All that went off was the primer. It had shot flawlessly before, but now it didn't work this time. So I put another primer on it, and sat back to wait for another deer. Soon here came another one but he wouldn't come within range.

Anyway, when it got dark we called it a day and went to the gate. There I got out of the Suburban and shot it out across the lake. No go. Pop again. So I took the nipple out. I cleaned the nipple with a fish hook that I cut the curve part off of. Then I I put it back in and put another cap on and "POP again! Only the primer. I tried three more primers but they were a no go. So we went home.

Once I let Arnold off and got to my daughter's house (Three of my kids were still here from the party the day before and had fryed a Turkey so they had called me to stop by and I did) I called Teach and told him what happened and what I had done. So he gave me instructions on what to do. So that's what I'm going to do here in a few minutes. I'm going to pull the nipple out again and pour a couple grains black powder in it and put the nipple back in and try it again. He thinks this will blow whatever is in the way out and help ignite the powder charge which should clear the chamber and barrel. Then I can pour boiling water down the barrel and clean it properly.

So yes, I had a few isues, but this was my first attempt and as Teach says, I'm in a learning curve. All I know is I like it thus far and I'm not giving up. The way I look at it, I at least got a shot at a very nice buck. Even though I didn't kill it, it was still a great experience.
I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
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Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    Good luck with getting the charge in the barrel to shoot- - - -pack several granules of powder into the flash channel under the nipple- - - -don't be stingy with it. Just be careful not to get the nipple thread full of powder, as forcing the nipple back in over powder granules could get a little difficult, and possibly dangerous. Keep us posted!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,092 Senior Member
    Jim,

    I had a problem similar to yours before. I have done what Teach has recommended, which is to remove the nipple, pour a little powder directly into the hole, replace the nipple, and try again. Before doing that, make sure the ball is seated snugly over the powder charge.

    Another thing I did once was to check the tightness of the hammer. In one csae, the screw holding the hammer to the lock place (or whatever it's called) had worked loose a little, and by tightening it up I was able to get the rifle to fire.

    There's also a spiral hook you can attach to the end of a ram rod that can be used to screw into the lead ball from the muzzle. By doing this, you can pull the ball out. Be sure you exercise caution if you do this, as you have to pull pretty darn hard. Also, if you have a metal ram rod, use that instead of a wooden one.

    I'm sure that others can offer other advice, but that's some of the things I've done. Also, FWIW, the biggest problems I have had with the front stuffers is forgetting put loadin a powder charge before seating the ball. It happens.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Attention snake person. I know you're new here but we have a rule. No pic=no gun=$5.00 fine.
    Please contact a moderator for pay pal info.

    That is all.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    If you have to do it, a ball puller (a screw with, ideally, a brass collar to keep it centered in the bore) can be used to fish that stubborn little ball out of the barrel. Try Teach's method first, the man knows whereof he speaks. I've used the ball puller upon returning home after a group hunt, with no real opportunity to shoot the gun to clear it, and with living in the city at the time the best option was the ball puller.

    Word of advice, save your under-the-barrel ramrod for strictly loading purposes, invest in a good-quality solid type loading/cleaning rod with a handle or "palm saver" ball on it. Thompson Center makes one with a ball (picture a ramrod-length rod affixed to the ball of a small bullet starter), mine is a Knight Muzzleloading heavy duty loading rod with a swiveling "T" handle and a built-in cleaning jag. I used the ball puller in this rod and with a strong steady pull after getting that screw into the lead ball, it slides right out.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    Here's the best way to clear a fouled barrel, either a charge that won't fire, or the dreaded "dry ball" where the ball is seated with no powder under it:

    https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_322&products_id=15330&osCsid=rm539nkl19iv3q4iui29hbkq35

    This one comes with adapters for percussion, flint, and 209 primer systems. BTW, Snake just called me- - - -the powder down the nipple hole worked- - -the bore is clear now!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Teach, I've seen those, and I will be the first to admit they work and work well.

    I also will admit that I am my father's son, and that man was a skinflint of the first magnitude - he could squeeze a dollar and, I swear, open his hand and show you five quarters, a nickel, and three pennies.

    Which goes to say that I put together a pretty portable and compact kit to keep the ol' Lyman GPR in working order at home or in the field, and I've not felt the dire need to drop forty bucks on something that I have an option to do the same job for about four.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,640 Senior Member
    How much pressure would be required to blow a ball out? Would an air compressor do it?
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • farm boyfarm boy Senior Member Posts: 987 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    How much pressure would be required to blow a ball out? Would an air compressor do it?

    I would think so. They sell those little kits with an adapter nipple that use the little 12 gram CO2 cartridges. They don't have much in the way of volume. I think 90 psi should handle it nicely. Maybe even well enough to be deadly?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,640 Senior Member
    Co2 pressures are WAY higher than 90 psi. Volume wise, though not so much. I do know a 12 gram cartridge will inflate my skinny road bike tires to around 100 psi.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    Jim,

    I had a problem similar to yours before. I have done what Teach has recommended, which is to remove the nipple, pour a little powder directly into the hole, replace the nipple, and try again. Before doing that, make sure the ball is seated snugly over the powder charge.

    Another thing I did once was to check the tightness of the hammer. In one csae, the screw holding the hammer to the lock place (or whatever it's called) had worked loose a little, and by tightening it up I was able to get the rifle to fire.

    There's also a spiral hook you can attach to the end of a ram rod that can be used to screw into the lead ball from the muzzle. By doing this, you can pull the ball out. Be sure you exercise caution if you do this, as you have to pull pretty darn hard. Also, if you have a metal ram rod, use that instead of a wooden one.

    I'm sure that others can offer other advice, but that's some of the things I've done. Also, FWIW, the biggest problems I have had with the front stuffers is forgetting put loadin a powder charge before seating the ball. It happens.

    Thanks JBC, and Jerry told me the same thing, that sooner or later I'd forget the powder and try to shoot it. I was scared this was the problem, but Arnold swore up and down he saw me drop 70 grains down the barrel before I inserted the patch and ball. Also, I thought about making sure that the ball was snug over the powder charge. But that's a very good point.

    Anyway, I took the rifle out in the country and took out the nipple, carefully poured some powder in until the level was just below the threads, then screwed the nipple back in. Presto! Or rather BANG! It shot!!! I was so relieved to feel the recoil and see that smoke come out the barrel. Now I know why they call it a smoke pole.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Attention snake person. I know you're new here but we have a rule. No pic=no gun=$5.00 fine.
    Please contact a moderator for pay pal info.

    That is all.

    Sorry Razor, but I guess being a Newby of almost six years, I just don't have all the rules down yet. If this stupid computer would cooperate, I could put some up from Photobucket. Maybe I will soon. Oh and as for the fine, Hold your breath and the money should be there when you wake up, NOT!!!:silly::silly::roll2::roll2::roll2:
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    How much pressure would be required to blow a ball out? Would an air compressor do it?

    Chris, yes according to Teach compressed air works fine and that would have been my next move had the powder under the nipple trick handn't worked. But work it did and boom! she went. I was never so happy to feel recoil in my life. So now my barrel is clear and I have poured boiling water down the bore. All sorts of sin came out that nipple hole when I poured it through there.

    But even though the compressed air works well, you don't have an air hose when you're out in the sticks hunting, so I'm going to get one of those kits Teach suggested incase I drop a dry ball while I'm hunting.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,640 Senior Member
    Once you settle on your powder charge, load up your gun. Once the ball is seated, mark your ramrod where it meets the end of the barrel. That will tell you if you have a powder charge when you load it the next time.


    I was testing the fit of a Minnie ball one day. It fit. Too good. So good in fact, it dropped about half way down the barrel...without powder. I pushed it the rest of the way down and sprinkled a few grains of powder through the nipple hole. It came out with surprising force...
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    darth_vader_pics.jpg

    If you really HAVE a muzzleloader, then the compressed air will work, don't point it at anything you want to keep though, it will leave with force. 777 is a little hotter than GOEX so watch the load data. If you hang around 70gr of 2F and it shoots well, that will push a ball through a deer. 150 yards is a little long for a 50cal RB. Roundballs do not fly like bullets, they drop off energy fast, and the smaller the ball the faster it drops. Rule of thumb from the PA roundball shooters I have talked to is in GENERAL figure a 45 cal good to 75, a 50 to 100 and a 54 to 125. Not 100% true, but for most of us, its pretty close.
    Now, before everyone starts in on Tim Murphy with me, we are talking putting a deer down quickly, not putting a hole somewhere in a enemy and its OK if infection takes them in a week or 2.
    Keep your shots reasonable for the rifle you have and you will be successful. I have shot my Lyman (gpr .50) a lot and would not be afraid of a 125 yard shot on a deer with it. At 125 yards there is right around a 4 in drop from a 100 yard zero and my load was a bit warmer than yours. After that the trajectory begins to look like a rock.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    For the guys who are interested in trying the "dry lube" patches that use soluble cutting oil as the lubricant, here's a couple or options for the oil:

    High-volume shooters:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/300848204089?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

    Plinkers/hunters:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/380503067746?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

    Put about 2-3 ounces of oil in a 1-pint canning jar, add a cup of water, and a drop or two of dishwashing liquid to help the oil emulsify. Cut several strips of cotton denim material about 1 1/4" wide, about 1 foot long. Roll these srtips up, put them in the oil/water mix, and shake the jar for a minute or so. Fish the strips out, lay them flat on a cookie sheet, and either sun-dry them or put the pan in a "warm" oven- - - -about 180-200 degrees. When the water evaporates out, the oil will stay in the patch material. The fabric will have a slightly slippery feel, but it won't be nearly as greasy as the prelubed patches that most round ball shooters buy- - - -hence the name "dry-lube" patch. I use the 1-foot strip "as is", simply tap the patched ball level with the muzzle using a short starter and trim it level with the muzzle with a patch knife or a box cutter. One precaution- - - -dry lube patches have a tendency to smolder downrange, so use a felt Wonder Wad or a couple of fiber over-powder wads if you choose to hunt with dry lube patches in an area where dry leaves or other flammable material might be encountered.

    Selecting patch material- - - -go to a fabric store or other sewing supply place, and take your dial caliper or micrometer along. Check out the cotton denim material (no polyester blends) for thickness by compressing it tightly between the jaws of the caliper, or give the micrometer a firm twist. This simulates the pressure the round ball will exert on the rifling as the ball is seated. Hunting loads usually like .015" thick patch material, or if you're going to clean after every shot (target work) try an .017" thick material. Buy about 1/2 yard of material and you'll have enough for several hundred patches. Wash the sizing out of the material by tossing it in with the next load of colored laundry- - - -you don't want the denim fading all over mama's nice white bed sheets! Cut the material into 1-foot long strips, and you'll be good to go! This type of patch helps us chunk gun shooters get sub-MOA groups at 60 yards with iron sights and patched round balls!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    I didn't even know that muzzle loaders came in 270! Congratulations on the new interest.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    I didn't even know that muzzle loaders came in 270! Congratulations on the new interest.

    No they don't Craig, but I hear tell they do come in something close to 720...:rotflmao::roll2::rotflmao:
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    Teach, would shooting the cloth with spray Ballistol work? As long as you didnt soak it the principal should be the same.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    darth_vader_pics.jpg

    If you really HAVE a muzzleloader, then the compressed air will work, don't point it at anything you want to keep though, it will leave with force. 777 is a little hotter than GOEX so watch the load data. If you hang around 70gr of 2F and it shoots well, that will push a ball through a deer. 150 yards is a little long for a 50cal RB. Roundballs do not fly like bullets, they drop off energy fast, and the smaller the ball the faster it drops. Rule of thumb from the PA roundball shooters I have talked to is in GENERAL figure a 45 cal good to 75, a 50 to 100 and a 54 to 125. Not 100% true, but for most of us, its pretty close.
    Now, before everyone starts in on Tim Murphy with me, we are talking putting a deer down quickly, not putting a hole somewhere in a enemy and its OK if infection takes them in a week or 2.
    Keep your shots reasonable for the rifle you have and you will be successful. I have shot my Lyman (gpr .50) a lot and would not be afraid of a 125 yard shot on a deer with it. At 125 yards there is right around a 4 in drop from a 100 yard zero and my load was a bit warmer than yours. After that the trajectory begins to look like a rock.

    Oh come on Varmintist, you doubt me just because I have no pics??? :tooth:

    Actually, I do have Teach as my witness. He sent me the rifle.

    As for being a long shot for what I was shooting, I understood this and also Teach told me that over 100 yards is getting long for the 50 shooting round balls. But this was the last day and the last hour of Muzzle Loading season and I had a BIG DEER in my sights. When that rifle went poof and fizzled, the thought of grabbing the 8x57 from Arnold did cross my mind. But that would not have meant crap to me. I'll wait til next year and go back with a vengence.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    Hmmmm- - - - -interesting idea- - - - -I just might have to try that one! The advantage to the soak/evaporate routine would probably be a better degree of uniformity between patches. That would be important for target work, not so much for hunting.
    jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    OK then all you more experienced front stuffers, I gotta ask this. What is the advantate of mini balls and other conical bullet types? Greater range? And will they shoot in my rifle?

    On the Tripple 7 Container it has listed loads such as caliber-50, Bullet/Sabot 240 grain Hornady XTP, 50/44, Primer-CCI 11, Velocity-1820 FPS. Will that give me greater range and is it recommended?
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    If you have to do it, a ball puller (a screw with, ideally, a brass collar to keep it centered in the bore) can be used to fish that stubborn little ball out of the barrel. Try Teach's method first, the man knows whereof he speaks. I've used the ball puller upon returning home after a group hunt, with no real opportunity to shoot the gun to clear it, and with living in the city at the time the best option was the ball puller.

    Word of advice, save your under-the-barrel ramrod for strictly loading purposes, invest in a good-quality solid type loading/cleaning rod with a handle or "palm saver" ball on it. Thompson Center makes one with a ball (picture a ramrod-length rod affixed to the ball of a small bullet starter), mine is a Knight Muzzleloading heavy duty loading rod with a swiveling "T" handle and a built-in cleaning jag. I used the ball puller in this rod and with a strong steady pull after getting that screw into the lead ball, it slides right out.

    Thanks gunrunner for that advice. I had thought about a scenario like that and was wondering how much force it would take to remove a patched ball from a barrel like that. Then Teach told me about the air pressure and the CO2 cartridge kit. But I was lucky enough that I really hadn't forgotten to load the powder. Then Teach suggested removing the nipple and pouring in some powder below it, and when I put some powder under the nipple and it fired I was very relieved. Teach and some others have told me that it is inevitable that at some point in time I will load a ball without any powder, so it helps me to know all these tips.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    What is the advantate of mini balls and other conical bullet types?

    Virtually none, in my opinion. True Minie' bullets were a slip-fit down a fouled bore, and the hollow base would expand to engage the rifling as the powder fired. This made loading much faster under battlefield conditions, but accuracy was horrible. Very low powder charges were needed to prevent blowing part of the skirt off the Minie' bullet and turning it into a boomerang. My .577 Enfield only uses 60 grains of powder behind a 490-grain Minie' bullet. I've heard stories of minie balls traveling in a wide circle and hitting, or nearly hitting the shooter. Conical bullets are close-fitting projectiles without a hollow base made of pure lead that obdurate to catch a little of the rifling on firing. Their main advantage is more weight than a patched round ball, but they need a much faster rifling twist to be accurate, and their weight and trajectory make them suitable only for very short range.

    Inlines with saboted bullets or almost full-bore jacketed projectiles with some sort of plastic seal can be fired with heavy powder charges. These bullets need a VERY fast rifling twist, and are basically centerfires that load from the front. That's where the cheaters get the idea that 150-200 grains of powder can be used in a so-called "muzzleloader", and 200-yard shots are possible. Your Hawken will work OK with .44 or .45 jacketed pistol bullets and the right plastic sabots, since it's probably got a 1:48" twist that will stabilize a saboted bullet. Accuracy won't be great, but it's adequate. Ditto for round balls- - - -they really work best with a 1:66" to a 1:72" twist rate, but the 1:48" is a good compromise between round balls and sabots. Leave the full-bore jacketed bullets with the plastic seals to the inliners. You'll shoot patterns, not groups with the Hawken rifling!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Virtually none, in my opinion. True Minie' bullets were a slip-fit down a fouled bore, and the hollow base would expand to engage the rifling as the powder fired. This made loading much faster under battlefield conditions, but accuracy was horrible. Very low powder charges were needed to prevent blowing part of the skirt off the Minie' bullet and turning it into a boomerang. My .577 Enfield only uses 60 grains of powder behind a 490-grain Minie' bullet. I've heard stories of minie balls traveling in a wide circle and hitting, or nearly hitting the shooter. Conical bullets are close-fitting projectiles without a hollow base made of pure lead that obdurate to catch a little of the rifling on firing. Their main advantage is more weight than a patched round ball, but they need a much faster rifling twist to be accurate, and their weight and trajectory make them suitable only for very short range.


    Inlines with saboted bullets or almost full-bore jacketed projectiles with some sort of plastic seal can be fired with heavy powder charges. These bullets need a VERY fast rifling twist, and are basically centerfires that load from the front. That's where the cheaters get the idea that 150-200 grains of powder can be used in a so-called "muzzleloader", and 200-yard shots are possible. Your Hawken will work OK with .44 or .45 jacketed pistol bullets and the right plastic sabots, since it's probably got a 1:48" twist that will stabilize a saboted bullet. Accuracy won't be great, but it's adequate. Ditto for round balls- - - -they really work best with a 1:66" to a 1:72" twist rate, but the 1:48" is a good compromise between round balls and sabots. Leave the full-bore jacketed bullets with the plastic seals to the inliners. You'll shoot patterns, not groups with the Hawken rifling!
    Jerry

    That's what I wanted to know. I was severely ignorant on this. But like you say, I'm in a learning curve. Also, I don't desire to shoot a Boomarang, so I'll stick with round balls.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 3,047 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    Oh come on Varmintist, you doubt me just because I have no pics??? :tooth:

    Actually, I do have Teach as my witness. He sent me the rifle.

    As for being a long shot for what I was shooting, I understood this and also Teach told me that over 100 yards is getting long for the 50 shooting round balls. But this was the last day and the last hour of Muzzle Loading season and I had a BIG DEER in my sights. When that rifle went poof and fizzled, the thought of grabbing the 8x57 from Arnold did cross my mind. But that would not have meant crap to me. I'll wait til next year and go back with a vengence.

    Seems like the perfect opportunity for an unethical shot with an un-proven weapon in the hands of an inexperience (with a muzzle loader) shooter.:bang:

    Sako
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,640 Senior Member
    Also, depending on the barrel and bullet diameter, the bullet might not fit real tight. Which means it could move forward off the powder charge. That's no bueno.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Teach, what about the bullets we used to call Maxi-balls. They've got lube grooves. I used to use them in my TC Hawken. They worked well.
    As far as patch lube I just chewed on my patches before using them.
    On the yardage thing. I sight in at 100 yds, (scoped inline), But I can't ever remember shooting at deer over 80 yds, or so, usually much closer and no way am I shooting at 150.
    These days I load 80 grains of loose Pyrodex and 348 grain powerbelt full caliber, copper plated with a plastic spire point type tip with the attached plastic bases, .54 cal. I haven't taken a deer with one yet but accuracy wise they're fine. And they load like a dream.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,075 Senior Member
    The Maxi-Ball is the type of conical I was referring to that's almost bore size. Those aren't lube grooves- - - -they're "driving bands". They load and shoot well from a clean bore, but after a few shots without cleaning they get very hard to force down the barrel. Lee made one called a R.E.A.L. bullet, (rifling engaged at loading) that had one slightly oversized driving band at the front that caught the rifling a little as the bullet was rammed. It supposedly kept the bullet from getting cocked on firing as the rest of the driving bands caught the rifling due to obduration. Any conical big enough to get a good bite on the rifling would have to be hammered down the bore with a mallet and a metal ramrod, which is how the very first projectiles in the 16th.-century European rifles were loaded. Someone finally figured out that a cloth patch could give a slightly undersized ball some spin, and also seal powder gases behind the ball. Spit-patching is fine, as long as the ball is fired pretty soon after loading. Oil-based lubes allow a loaded rifle to be carried for several hours, or even days without rusting the bore.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The Maxi-Ball is the type of conical I was referring to that's almost bore size. Those aren't lube grooves- - - -they're "driving bands". They load and shoot well from a clean bore, but after a few shots without cleaning they get very hard to force down the barrel. Lee made one called a R.E.A.L. bullet, (rifling engaged at loading) that had one slightly oversized driving band at the front that caught the rifling a little as the bullet was rammed. It supposedly kept the bullet from getting cocked on firing as the rest of the driving bands caught the rifling due to obduration. Any conical big enough to get a good bite on the rifling would have to be hammered down the bore with a mallet and a metal ramrod, which is how the very first projectiles in the 16th.-century European rifles were loaded. Someone finally figured out that a cloth patch could give a slightly undersized ball some spin, and also seal powder gases behind the ball. Spit-patching is fine, as long as the ball is fired pretty soon after loading. Oil-based lubes allow a loaded rifle to be carried for several hours, or even days without rusting the bore.
    Jerry

    i will defer to your experience and expertise. But we put lube between those bands. And again, they worked fine.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    Oh come on Varmintist, you doubt me just because I have no pics??? :tooth:

    Actually, I do have Teach as my witness. He sent me the rifle.
    nope, we dont change the rules on hearsay. It could be a conspiracy.

    As for being a long shot for what I was shooting, I understood this and also Teach told me that over 100 yards is getting long for the 50 shooting round balls. But this was the last day and the last hour of Muzzle Loading season and I had a BIG DEER in my sights. When that rifle went poof and fizzled, the thought of grabbing the 8x57 from Arnold did cross my mind. But that would not have meant crap to me. I'll wait til next year and go back with a vengence.
    No buts, it just isnt a good idea with roundballs. Velocity drops off pretty fast around 100 yards and you are shooting a non perfect sphere. Think baseballs. Pitchers can curve and drop then by putting spin on them, that is what happens to a roundball when it slows down. They can do weird things.
    There is a reason that inlines are different, and this is it. The shooter has to limit himself and know when NOT to take the shot. A 100 yard shot with a 50cal caplock with 70 gr of 2F is pretty much the max you will want to go. If you are 1:66 twist you can pump up the charge some but the 1:48 that I have seen seem to like a milder charge in the 70-80 gr range. Even when you get them close the roundball damage is a hole, there is no huge shock damage like a modern bullet. You want to give that bullet every advantage, speed is the best one.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
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