Why so few .45acp carbines?

alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior MemberPosts: 7,792 Senior Member
I'm half toying with the idea of getting a pistol caliber carbine again. As I've been looking around I keep wondering why no love for the good ol .45? There are so many options on 9mm but almost no one makes a .45. have thought about a 1927a1, but they're definitely on the pricy side and also heavy. There are a few companies that make ARish kits, but again on the pricy side. Not in a hurry, maybe someone will come out with something interesting sometime soon.
"Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
-DoctorWho

Comments

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,660 Senior Member
    I have been toying with the same idea for years, but can't bring myself to lay out the dollars for something that would basically just be a toy, for me. I love the idea of Thompson's and grease guns, etc., but don't see them as practical, given the versatility of standard AR-15s, which satisfy most of my plinking urges.

    I have almost 'pulled the trigger,' about a dozen times, on a Mech-Tec conversion for my G-20, but I know I would never use it enough to justify the expense. And, if it turned out not to be very accurate, I would be so disappointed that it would end up languishing in the back of my safe.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,652 Senior Member
    Probably ammo cost, I would wager. Just like there's more 9mm and .40 handguns than there is .45.
    I've got a hipoint 9mm in the ati stock that looks like the Beretta carbine. It's accurate, reliable, and handy....but I never shoot it. I need to just get rid of it I suppose.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 3,955 Senior Member
    Since PCC has started being allowed in USPSA, IDPA and Steel Challenge, it has taken off. Thing is, there is no major and minor PF for it so it does not behoove anyone to shoot bigger than 9mm. Some matches there are more PCC's than pistols. They have really taken off. Ticks people off that their 5000 dollar race gun can be beaten by an 800 rifle.

    Check QC10.COM. They make a 40 and 45. Some say they are the best PCC's made.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,792 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Probably ammo cost, I would wager. Just like there's more 9mm and .40 handguns than there is .45.
    I've got a hipoint 9mm in the ati stock that looks like the Beretta carbine. It's accurate, reliable, and handy....but I never shoot it. I need to just get rid of it I suppose.
    Yeah I had one of those as well. Sold it during one of the panics because it never made it to the range. I also didn't care for the 10 rnd mags. Hipoint does make a .45 now so a possibility. We'll see.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,792 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Since PCC has started being allowed in USPSA, IDPA and Steel Challenge, it has taken off. Thing is, there is no major and minor PF for it so it does not behoove anyone to shoot bigger than 9mm. Some matches there are more PC's than pistols. They have really taken off. Ticks people off that their 5000 dollar race gun can be beaten by an 800 rifle.

    Check QC10.COM. They make a 40 and 45. Some say they are the best PC's made.
    Interesting. I had no idea about them being allowed in competitions now. Been a few years since I've made it to matches regularly. Something to look into I guess.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,337 Senior Member
    Beretta had the CX4 Storm for a while, but they're 800-1000 now. There is a 45 at the Cabelas here for 900. Steve had a 40, it was fun, but no better then Jerry's or my HiPoint.

    Again, price is going up, but if you can find one, Marlin used to make a dandy PC in 9 and 45, Marlin Camp Rifle. Uses 1911 mags. Solid little guns. But, they're nit tactifool enough for the current market and would never sell.

    I've also pondered the Mechtech glock conversions. You can buy Glock lowers online for 2-300$, about 500 for the upper. So still in that 700-1000 range.

    I wish there were more options, especially in 45 or better yet, 10mm
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,471 Senior Member
    I'd like to see Ruger and Marlin bring back their carbines in .45 ACP and other chamberings. There really isn't much choice in anything but 9mm in carbines. There's more out there than you'd think now.

    I have the Mech Tech .45 upper carbine adapter for 1911 and like it a lot.

    Here's a few links to give you agood idea of what's available. A semi auto Tommy gun would be nice! The second link is an overview of some of the newer ones.

    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/category/firearms/rifles/semi-automatic/45-acp.do

    http://gundata.org/blog/post/best-45-acp-carbines/

    http://www.justrightcarbines.com/
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 8,452 Senior Member
    I'd like to see the Croatian factory where XD's are made make a carbine that takes XD magazines
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 3,955 Senior Member
    You can always build your own. Palmetto sells all the parts you need. Shop around and you can keep it around $500.00


    Maybe not. Thought PSA had stuff for 40 and 45. Looks like just 9mm. QC10 sells parts though.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,470 Senior Member
    Velocity increase over a standard 5" barrel is usually less than 200FPS - in other words, it ain't worth the trouble.

    Behold:

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,566 Senior Member

    I wish there were more options, especially in 45 or better yet, 10mm
    You can buy the MechTech 1911 conversions in 10mm

    I've thought about one a few times
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,598 Senior Member
    As I have contemplated this, the advantage of a pistol carbine is increased velocity and reach with a pistol cartidge. The .45 is slow and heavy to begin with, so making it go 200 or 300 fps faster doesn't really get it moving that fast. The ballistic profile of a 230 gr .45 slug making 1000 FPS isn't that flat. A Federal HST 230 gr bullet is making about 500 FPE from an 18 inch barrel. If you zero it at 75 yards it has a 4.3 inch drop at 100 yards and 420 FPE and about a 20 inch drop at 150 yards.

    Low energy and poor flight characteristics and higher ammo costs.


    Meanwhile a 9 mm 115 gr +p makes more muzzle energy and drops just 2 inches at 100 yards and 375 FPE with a 75 zero and just 10 inches at 150 yards and costs less.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,598 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    You can buy the MechTech 1911 conversions in 10mm

    I've thought about one a few times

    Me too, but I have yet to hear about an accurate 10mm carbine. A definate WANT,

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    It may be that the market consists of a majority of wannabe pistoleros who are ignorant of the superior control a long arm offers.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,471 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    As I have contemplated this, the advantage of a pistol carbine is increased velocity and reach with a pistol cartidge. The .45 is slow and heavy to begin with, so making it go 200 or 300 fps faster doesn't really get it moving that fast. The ballistic profile of a 230 gr .45 slug making 1000 FPS isn't that flat. A Federal HST 230 gr bullet is making about 500 FPE from an 18 inch barrel. If you zero it at 75 yards it has a 4.3 inch drop at 100 yards and 420 FPE and about a 20 inch drop at 150 yards.

    Low energy and poor flight characteristics and higher ammo costs.


    Meanwhile a 9 mm 115 gr +p makes more muzzle energy and drops just 2 inches at 100 yards and 375 FPE with a 75 zero and just 10 inches at 150 yards and costs less.

    D

    You're asking a pistol carbine to substitute as a full grown rifle. You will ALWAYS be disappointed when doing this. And accurate bullet placement trumps velocity and FPE every.........single.........time.

    Time for an example of mass vs. velocity. Which would you rather catch barehanded, a baseball at 90 mph, or a softball at 90 mph? The ONLY difference is mass and diameter. Should be same-same, right? Weight and diameter ratios of baseball and softball are reasonably similar to 9mm and .45.
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Me too, but I have yet to hear about an accurate 10mm carbine. A definate WANT,

    D

    Bullets designed specifically for a pistol platform at pistol ranges rarely do well in rifles when stretching the range beyond which the cartridge and bullet were designed to perform. Keep range within the limits of cartridge design and you won't be disappointed. Even .45-70 450 grain bullets at Springfield Trapdoor velocities drop like a rock past 100-150 yards, but I won't be volunteering to catch one at 200 yards.

    FWIW, I've taken 230 grain HP .45 ACP bullets and trimmed their weight to 200 grains, and they perform pretty good velocity and accuracy wise at 100 yards. A short piece of nylon rod fills the hollow point for better flight characteristics. If you want accuracy at distance bullets for 10mm, then you need something besides truncated cone, truncated cone HP, and round nosed HP fodder to choose from to achieve that accuracy. It's pretty much a fact that short fat bullets suck at long range accuracy.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,337 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    You can buy the MechTech 1911 conversions in 10mm

    I've thought about one a few times

    I meant without going the kit route. I've eyed the G20 many times. Got lots of 10mm ammo and brass, nothing to fire it through
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,590 Senior Member
    A big part of the problem is the really GOOD .45 ACP carbines come with a lot of "Imperial entanglements".

    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,056 Senior Member
    I'm half toying with the idea of getting a pistol caliber carbine again. As I've been looking around I keep wondering why no love for the good ol .45? There are so many options on 9mm but almost no one makes a .45. have thought about a 1927a1, but they're definitely on the pricy side and also heavy. There are a few companies that make ARish kits, but again on the pricy side. Not in a hurry, maybe someone will come out with something interesting sometime soon.


    Quarter Circle 10.

    Dedicated 45ACP lowers/uppers and they use Glock 21 mags.

    You're welcome. :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,875 Senior Member
    TNW

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • beanfieldbeanfield Member Posts: 84 Member
    Be more inventive.

    My bad, this one's already been done.

    Pics of the converted SKS... it works as a simple blow back...gas system is inop...uses Glock mags




    https://www.ingunowners.com/forums/long-guns/84112-45-acp-carbines-4.html
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,357 Senior Member
    beanfield wrote: »
    Be more inventive.

    My bad, this one's already been done.

    Pics of the converted SKS... it works as a simple blow back...gas system is inop...uses Glock mags




    [url]https://www.ingunowners.com/forums/long

    That is interesting.[/url]
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • beanfieldbeanfield Member Posts: 84 Member
    Pistol rounds are okay in rifles. I had a couple 9 mm carbines. One a Hi Point 995TS and the other a Suomi M31 SMG. I also tried .45 Colt in a Browning 1885, boy that was a challenge. I thought a lever action in .38/.357 mag would be nice, maybe one in .44mag. Never saw a Ruger PC and the Marlin Camp carbines were alright, but way over priced in my book.

    I had a lot of fun with both my 9mms. I had a guy give me guff about not being able to hit anything past 100 yards with them, so I slapped a cheap 3x9 Tasco on the back of the Hi Point to prove him wrong. I put a line of bowling pins in front of an 8" target placed out at 300 yards. This cheap Mil dot scope was sighted in at 100 yards and I think I ended up placing the first or second dot below the crosshair on target, then pins started to fall. Even the naysayer had fun laying those pins over with this cheap rig. I still have the Hi Point, because it's fun and cheap to shoot. Got rid of the M31 because someone wanted it more than I.

    I bought a FAL and pilfered the scope off of the Hi Point. After four rounds of .308s, the Tasco turned itself into a baby rattle.



  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,357 Senior Member
    Those M31's are HEAVY, but recoil is negligible.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • beanfieldbeanfield Member Posts: 84 Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Those M31's are HEAVY, but recoil is negligible.

    My M31 had a trigger that felt like I was mashing the starter of my '49 Chevy half ton.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,687 Senior Member
    I have no use for one. They are not known for killing deer at over 100 yards. That's what I do mainly, I love my 1911 A-1 45 ACP but for SD and Snakes. Not for hunting at medium to long ranges.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,875 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I have no use for one. They are not known for killing deer at over 100 yards. That's what I do mainly, I love my 1911 A-1 45 ACP but for SD and Snakes. Not for hunting at medium to long ranges.

    Hard to argue with that. Even my most accurate ones, I wouldn't use at anything over ~150 yds, BUT the vast majority of my hunting is done well inside 100 yds, so mine get a lot of use. They're light, handy, and have never failed to drop whatever I've shot at.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,551 Senior Member
    Another thing to consider with the .45, especially in an AR, is the bolt face. .45 is HUGE compared to 9mm or even 10mm/.40. While you can rather easily modify an AR bolt for 9mm or even the 10mm/.40, you need a whole 'nother one for the .45. One that's more like AR-10 sized. It's possible to do, but takes a fair amount of finagling to make it work out with very non-standard parts. That's even more 'spensive.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,010 Senior Member
    there are some out there but it will depend on what you want.

    i got an AR in 45acp along with a 9mm and now a 10mm.

    they are fun to shoot.
    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,062 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    As I have contemplated this, the advantage of a pistol carbine is increased velocity and reach with a pistol cartidge. The .45 is slow and heavy to begin with, so making it go 200 or 300 fps faster doesn't really get it moving that fast. The ballistic profile of a 230 gr .45 slug making 1000 FPS isn't that flat. A Federal HST 230 gr bullet is making about 500 FPE from an 18 inch barrel. If you zero it at 75 yards it has a 4.3 inch drop at 100 yards and 420 FPE and about a 20 inch drop at 150 yards.

    Low energy and poor flight characteristics and higher ammo costs.


    Meanwhile a 9 mm 115 gr +p makes more muzzle energy and drops just 2 inches at 100 yards and 375 FPE with a 75 zero and just 10 inches at 150 yards and costs less.

    D
    That's an interesting comparison.

    You chose 230 grain in .45 and 115 in 9mm. Comparing SD's that's (0.16154 versus 0.13036)
    To be more fair. I think 185 versus 115 or 230 versus 147 would be more telling.

    You chose non +p versus +p.
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/454698/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-45-acp-230-grain-hst-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20

    I'm assuming you added a 100 or 200 fps to these numbers. I don't really know.

    Finally, I'd be more interested in downrange performance than at the barrel and your own numbers suggest the .45 has more downrange energy and impulse than the 115 grain load you chose.

    Cost per round and a steeper trajectory seem to be the only real concern. If I can manage to holdover an extra two inches at a 100 yards. I might be able to hold off an extra two more if I was using a .45 acp round.

    Anyway, I still like the idea of a .45 pistol caliber carbine. I wonder if you could fire .45 Super through them if you change to a heavier spring. I reload for both already so cost isn't an issue.

    I've always considered a pistol carbine to be a short to short-medium range firearm at best so I'd be using it for HD and short range varmit control. I have a lot better choices for long range.

    :beer:
    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,470 Senior Member
    If you want a carbine that maximizes the output of a pistol caliber, start with one that's already fast. The .357 Magnum can be pushed well beyond 2,000 FPS in an 18" barrel. Behold:

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

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