Barrel Lapping and Fire Lapping and David Tubbs views on Barrel Breakin

snake284snake284 Senior MemberPosts: 20,700 Senior Member
Here's some interesting food for thought some of you disbelievers might find interesting.
Whatever, I'm not trying to revive old arguments but just thought some of you would like to read it.

http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/lapping.html



http://www.davidtubb.com/davidtubb/content/templates/common/pdfs/break_in_article_new.pdf
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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Comments

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,917 Senior Member
    Hmmmm- - - - - -I believe Forrest Gump's mama had something to say about forcing abrasives down a rifle barrel at bullet speeds.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,679 Senior Member
    Bore lapping and "barrel break in" are completely different things.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    The reason they are both together is they both were on Tubb's site. Not really that much relationship.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,064 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    The reason they are both together is they both were on Tubb's site. Not really that much relationship.

    If it doesn't involve chipmunks, public nudity and archaic ritual...I'm not interested. :deadhorse:
    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    Spk, you are a very SICK person, but of course I like that!
    :rotflmao: :rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,579 Senior Member
    Mike, you like/believe in breaking in a barrel. That's all fine and good, and well within your right...... but for GOD'S sake, give it a freakin' REST.

    What's next, a thread on how much better the 270 Win is than any other round on the planet???


    The rest of us have long since realized you're not going to budge one iota from your, "barrels shoot much better if they're broken in" stance. So how about realizing that you are NOT going to change the minds of us who thinks it's a crock and move on
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,489 Senior Member
    While I've lapped a few barrels with a lead slug poured on a cleaning brush and coated with very fine abrasive, I've never even considered firing abrasive coated bullets down a bore. The lead slug coated with fine abrasive can clean up some of the tool marks and make a barrel less prone to fouling, and do wonders for a bore that has been neglected.

    On that fire lapping, consider this. A high speed projectile coated with abrasive and roaring down the bore will invariably imbed abrasive in the steel as the bullet mashes the abrasive into the bores surface. Why in Hades anyone would consider such a thing as an intelligent course of action is beyond my comprehension.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    I've never been to Hades, Charon would not take my quarter.

    However, I have used Tubb's bullets at one point. It was in attempt to rescue an old factory barrel that had never been particularly precise and which had a strong tendency to accumulate copper. I did the whole 50 bullet drill, it took a few hours. At the end, I shot a five-shot group that measured in the 3s. So I would say that it worked well for me. I would never do that to a lapped custom barrel.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 6,691 Senior Member
    Peg,
    That is exactly the only way I would recommend Tubb's set-up myself.
    On a factory barrel that is shooting terrible-You have nothing to lose.
    On a custom tube I would never do it. If it doesn't shoot good I am talking first to the smith and second to the barrel maker.
    Pegasus wrote: »
    I've never been to Hades, Charon would not take my quarter.

    However, I have used Tubb's bullets at one point. It was in attempt to rescue an old factory barrel that had never been particularly precise and which had a strong tendency to accumulate copper. I did the whole 50 bullet drill, it took a few hours. At the end, I shot a five-shot group that measured in the 3s. So I would say that it worked well for me. I would never do that to a lapped custom barrel.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • DurwoodDurwood Senior Member Posts: 970 Senior Member
    A good friend of mine who has worked as a machinist for a living and as a gun smith recently tried the Tubb bullets in a pesky Ruger 77 6.5x55 that had a tendency to accumulate copper fouling beyond what he felt was normal. He said when he was finished there was no appreciable gain in accuracy or reduction in fouling, but the process did errode several thousands of an inch from the throat of the barrel so he promptly traded it...
    You have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts:guns:
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    Some barrels are beyond rescue.
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    A good nylon brush, a decent solvent, some JB Bore Paste (occasionally) and a bottle of Bore Tech Eliminator will do wonders.

    Trick bullets? Nada!
  • deadeyedeadeye Member Posts: 73 Member
    I did the lapping bullets to my son's Model 70 in 30'06. That barrel stripped copper but it did shoot in the .3's. After just 5 of each grit and cleaning, by the time i was done, it shot a group that measured .2's and no copper fouling. They do work!!
    No Need To Run, You Will Only Die Tired
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    Paul I am not arguing this point. I have my opinions and you have yours. I feel I have a right to list any website that has to do with guns. And if you look up David Tubbs you will see he is a very well known marksman. I am only sharing information so that other people on here whether they share your opinion or not can see both sides of the issue. Also, while barrel lapping has something in common with breakin, it is also a different subject. If you don't want to read or discuss the pros and cons of breakin or lapping for that matter, don't read it. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head here. i just listed web sights.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,333 Senior Member
    I fire lapped a .223 and it improved it from bad to not-so-bad. So it worked for me. It sure heats up the barrel, so it takes a while to get it right. I didn't use the most abrasive, just the last two stages.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    I believe there are 5 levels of bullets and the final two levels are quite tame. I would say that if you had a bad barrel and only used the last two bullets, you completely circumvented the process, which is why you saw little improvement.

    I am not saying that Tubb's bullets are a magic cure-all, but if you are going to use them in an attempt to address a barrel problem, you need to use them all as intended.
  • deadeyedeadeye Member Posts: 73 Member
    On Tubb's site he says that if you are only going to use just a few grits that the first 2 would be his choice. The last one of the five is about the same as shooting a naked copper bullet to burnish the metal.
    No Need To Run, You Will Only Die Tired
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    For my two cents, I would use them as a last resort on a factory barrel that didn't shoot good after I tried bedding, pressure point, recrowning, and as many different loads and seating depths as I could. Then I would use the lapping bullets starting with the coursest and cleaning after each different grit and fire regular bullets for group every couple of grits to see if it worked. No way I would use this on a custom barrel or a barrel that showed promise. Like I said, only as a last resort before canning said barrel.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    Carl, when they lap a barrel do they sand down the lapping plug or is it a tight fit? And does the plug also ride in the grooves?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,337 Senior Member
    Wow, I am so relieved to know so many of you guys know so much more then David Tubbs does! Amazing! I guess being arguably the greatest shooter that is alive has nothing to do with his products and theories. No no, you guys know way more then the guy who has mastered nearly EVERY discipline of shooting, and set more records then anyone.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    Wow, I am so relieved to know so many of you guys know so much more then David Tubbs does! Amazing! I guess being arguably the greatest shooter that is alive has nothing to do with his products and theories. No no, you guys know way more then the guy who has mastered nearly EVERY discipline of shooting, and set more records then anyone.

    First of all, his name is Tubb, not Tubbs.

    Second, he sells products and he is free to make any claim he wants to make about the efficacy of his products. As I matter of fact, I have several of his products in my ARs. I have his springs, his pistol grip and his CWS.

    Third, his FinalFinish products are indeed controversial, and by that I mean that most barrel makers will immediatly void their warranty if you use the FF bullets in their barrels. When I used the FF bullets, I knew my barrel was crap and this was a last gasp attempt. I followed the instructions to the letter and ran through all the bullets and it worked for me. I do know of other people who have tried them with no improvement. My guess is they probably misdiagnosed the problem in the first place; perhaps it was not the bore that needed attention. Read what Snake said he would do before getting to fire-lapping, it's very good. But when you get to the fire-lapping, don't do it halfway.

    I know some folks who are incredibly good at video games and yet have no clue how a computer works and can't write a line of code to save their lives.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 6,691 Senior Member
    MHS,
    I have visited with David a number of times over the years.
    I respect his ability, and at times wished I lived closer to Canadian.
    FF is the one product that I would never use unless it was a factory barrel that just wouldn't shoot.
    I agree with what Peg said about them being controversial as well.
    Being a great shooter and marketing the best products do not always go hand-in-hand.
    His reticle is so busy for me, I have no desire to use it.
    Does it mean it is bad? No. Just means that I will "skin the cat" in a different way to shoot distance.
    Wow, I am so relieved to know so many of you guys know so much more then David Tubbs does! Amazing! I guess being arguably the greatest shooter that is alive has nothing to do with his products and theories. No no, you guys know way more then the guy who has mastered nearly EVERY discipline of shooting, and set more records then anyone.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    Pegasus wrote: »
    First of all, his name is Tubb, not Tubbs.

    Second, he sells products and he is free to make any claim he wants to make about the efficacy of his products. As I matter of fact, I have several of his products in my ARs. I have his springs, his pistol grip and his CWS.

    Third, his FinalFinish products are indeed controversial, and by that I mean that most barrel makers will immediatly void their warranty if you use the FF bullets in their barrels. When I used the FF bullets, I knew my barrel was crap and this was a last gasp attempt. I followed the instructions to the letter and ran through all the bullets and it worked for me. I do know of other people who have tried them with no improvement. My guess is they probably misdiagnosed the problem in the first place; perhaps it was not the bore that needed attention. Read what Snake said he would do before getting to fire-lapping, it's very good. But when you get to the fire-lapping, don't do it halfway.

    I know some folks who are incredibly good at video games and yet have no clue how a computer works and can't write a line of code to save their lives.

    Second of all, I do not care how he spells his name!

    Thirdly, some of the greatest shooters came out of the Camp Perry matches way back when. These guys didn't have any of the super solvents or space-age crap that exists today to simply clean a rifle barrel. They cleaned their guns, went out and shot, were outstanding at windage adjustments and had a great time without all this fall-de-roil stuff.

    I suppose the ultimate question is: How clean can you clean a barrel? So what? Give us common sense folks a break will ya?

    In fact, I am getting ready to try a bore solvent that was suggested by one here. I am doing this because I am interested in new products, and most importantly, I have always respected this particular forum member.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,489 Senior Member
    Wow, I am so relieved to know so many of you guys know so much more then David Tubbs does! Amazing! I guess being arguably the greatest shooter that is alive has nothing to do with his products and theories. No no, you guys know way more then the guy who has mastered nearly EVERY discipline of shooting, and set more records then anyone.

    Whatever..............I'll take my cues from these two. They make and lap barrels. They know what makes an accurate barrel. A little information on how barrels are actually produced is just gravy.

    http://firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm

    http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,258 Senior Member
    My dad wasn't getting the accuracy he wanted out of his Hi Power rig (Armalite National Match A2) so he did the Tubb's thing. I can't remember if he saw any improvement though.
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "It's far easier to start out learning to be precise and then speeding up, than it is having never "mastered" the weapon, and trying to be precise." - Dan C
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    Second of all, I do not care how he spells his name!

    Thirdly, some of the greatest shooters came out of the Camp Perry matches way back when. These guys didn't have any of the super solvents or space-age crap that exists today to simply clean a rifle barrel. They cleaned their guns, went out and shot, were outstanding at windage adjustments and had a great time without all this fall-de-roil stuff.

    I suppose the ultimate question is: How clean can you clean a barrel? So what? Give us common sense folks a break will ya?

    In fact, I am getting ready to try a bore solvent that was suggested by one here. I am doing this because I am interested in new products, and most importantly, I have always respected this particular forum member.

    N230WA, good for you. I think everyone should be able to mangle each other's name.

    Actually, I think the ultimate question is simply "why are you talking about cleaning?" This thread is not about that, it's about fire-lapping a barrel with FF bullets. I think you have been sniffing too many solvents.

    Oh, and it's spelled "fol-de-rol" or "folderol."
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,551 Senior Member
    It is a poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word.
    -A. Jackson
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,700 Senior Member
    Pegasus wrote: »
    First of all, his name is Tubb, not Tubbs.

    Second, he sells products and he is free to make any claim he wants to make about the efficacy of his products. As I matter of fact, I have several of his products in my ARs. I have his springs, his pistol grip and his CWS.

    Third, his FinalFinish products are indeed controversial, and by that I mean that most barrel makers will immediatly void their warranty if you use the FF bullets in their barrels. When I used the FF bullets, I knew my barrel was crap and this was a last gasp attempt. I followed the instructions to the letter and ran through all the bullets and it worked for me. I do know of other people who have tried them with no improvement. My guess is they probably misdiagnosed the problem in the first place; perhaps it was not the bore that needed attention. Read what Snake said he would do before getting to fire-lapping, it's very good. But when you get to the fire-lapping, don't do it halfway.

    I know some folks who are incredibly good at video games and yet have no clue how a computer works and can't write a line of code to save their lives.

    Yep exactly, and everybody told Columbus the world was flat too. You never know about new ideas until you actually talk to someone you have faith in that has tried it-them, or you have tried it-them yourself. It's always a crap shoot. When I put something like this up, I mean it for discussion. I always like to hear different opinions no matter if they're negative to the idea or positive. It makes me no difference but that's how we learn. I am NOT trying to start a crap storm here. I was seriously just interested to what your opinions would be after you read said articles. I realize there's a lot of experience on this site. I have some of that myself. Some of you I can compete with and some I can't. But you won't see me sitting on my laurals waiting for the truth to hit me on the head from some lightning bolt. And when Some of you hit me with complete negativism just because you don't like me, or in at least one case because you think I'm crazy, I will fight back. Because I take such as a slap in the face. When you hit me like that, I take it as the insult it is. But nevermind all that. When I put a site up here and you don't like what's on it, fine. I cannot make any of you do anything. You have your own will and can respect that. But I will always feel I have a right to put up sites here that deal with firearms. As long as I'm not trying to promote a product for myown gain I feel it is completely my right. Like I say, I'm not forcing anyone. I am just another member here. I admit I have some contrivoersial views, but i'm not here to offend or try to change the world.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    I don't know where you learned history, but nobody was arguing with Columbus that the Earth was flat. Columbus was wrong in thinking he could get there in his 3 little ships, everyone else was telling him they would die of starvation before reaching their destination, which is why they did not want to finance his venture.

    The naysayers were indeed correct as the expedition was virtually out of food and water when they bumped into the up-to-then unknown continent. When you think about it, they were barely a third of the way to India and they were pretty much done for. Columbus still thought he had reached India, even though he was still an entire ocean away.

    In many ways there is no end of people who have valid positions on things, but for the wrong reasons.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    You're right, Pegasus. All educated people in Columbus' time knew the Earth was round. That had been known since ancient times. It's just that some people, including Columbus' advisers, had greatly miscalculated the size of the planet, an underestimation that came from their thinking the Moon was closer than it actually is -- one of the size calculations came from measuring the arc of the Earth's shadow on the Moon and if the Moon were closer, the Earth would therefore be smaller to match the arc.

    Columbus never did accept (or admit) that he'd not reached China or India, not after several voyages, even though many other scientists accepted the proper size of the Earth and knew there was actually a "New World".

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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