Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

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Replies

  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,571 Senior Member
    Sure you need a national organization and they serve a purpose, but I think you overstate their importance. In the 8+ years I spent in scouting it was the the volunteers and parents (yes both sexes) who spent their time to teach me and take me on adventures that made the impact.

    Go put on the brown shirt and see how much training goes into running a Pack/Troop. Did your parents serve on a committee or in a leadership position? Have you ever spoken with or dealt with your district representative? How about the folks in charge of a camp? You really have no idea to make such a statement.

    FWIW, I NEVER put on a brown shirt, so I can't really talk, but me and the wife served on committee positions and went as adult leaders, with appropriate National BSA training, and put in the hours in the camps. The folks running the show have unenviable jobs and they did them well because of the structure and outline at the national level.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,031 Senior Member
    You're :bang: - - - - -talking truth and logic to the equivalent of a divorced marriage counselor who knows everything and is a legend in his own mind!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,519 Senior Member
    Those camp-out C-Js will never be the same ...
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,195 Senior Member
    Went to the big area council meeting on this subject where they played a couple of videos from the director of the BSA on how they want to open new markets, blah, blah, blah.... And then outlined the plans for what they wanted to do with the cub scouts- basically have "separate but equal" cub scouts programs for girls. (Someone pointed out that 'separate but equal' will not pass any lawsuit) For Boy Scouts, they are trying to decide if they partner with another organization that already caters to females, or design their own parallel track that will allow girls to do the same things and earn the same badges (including Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow).

    Discussion got heated with the the actual scouts in attendance offering reasoned and logical arguments why the BOY Scouts should be for BOYS, and continue to lead BOYS into becoming men. Then there were the representatives from sponsoring churches saying that they will not sponsor a co-ed Boy Scouts... and then there were the strident and constantly offended women and California-transplants that were completely irrational and were all about "THERE IS NO WAY I CAN EVER GROW THE STONES TO TELL MY PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE DAUGHTER 'NO' TO ANYTHING, SO WE MUST CHANGE A 107 YEAR OLD PROVEN ORGANIZATION TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR ME!!!!"

    The BSA position was that this is DEFINITELY not about money, and that in NO WAY is the decision already made. Which, as anyone that has had a 9 year old around knows that when they say "There is nothing hidden under the bed!". they we know this is 100% all about money, and the decision has already been made.

    There was a survey that went out afterwards. We filled it out and said this is a REAL bad idea. But, on the bright side, maybe I wont have to go do Popcorn sales this year. Because selling small bags of mediocre popcorn for $20 a bag is just awful.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,286 Senior Member
    The decision probably hasnt been made yet. Like the gays in the BSA though, your opinion wont matter when it is. We were all asked for input on that debacle. That stupid idea was panned out of hand by the membership by a lot bigger margin than any pres ever won, and you know what the result is.

    Venture Scouts is a outstanding idea, but it is for young adults.

    The microwave kettle corn is about the only thing I would sell. Price per unit was fair and as a person who is not a popcorn fan, I looked forward to it.

    As a aside. One way to keep out the "participation trophy" crowd is to have a active troop. Start strapping packs on. When the subject comes up that they "cant" then it is time to sit down with the scout and the parents and suggest another troop. I have had that conversation. If the troop is a car camping troop or a barely camping troop, you are going to get anyone who excels to the minimum requirements. Take over the Camping merit badge counselor position. You can do a lot with that.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,195 Senior Member

    As a aside. One way to keep out the "participation trophy" crowd is to have a active troop. Start strapping packs on. When the subject comes up that they "cant" then it is time to sit down with the scout and the parents and suggest another troop. I have had that conversation. If the troop is a car camping troop or a barely camping troop, you are going to get anyone who excels to the minimum requirements. Take over the Camping merit badge counselor position. You can do a lot with that.

    Unfortunately, I am on the Cub Scout side for the next 2 years or so. The whole process is built around participation trophies and "Yay, you got your 'I Can Walk and Breath At The Same Time' belt loop! Good Job!".

    As a scout master told me one time "I hate cub scouts. It's just babysitting where the bitchy moms stay and watch"
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,385 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I am on the Cub Scout side for the next 2 years or so. The whole process is built around participation trophies and "Yay, you got your 'I Can Walk and Breath At The Same Time' belt loop! Good Job!".

    As a scout master told me one time "I hate cub scouts. It's just babysitting where the bitchy moms stay and watch"
    Exactly why a good friend of mine quit leading. Fortunately for all involved the only thing he said was "if you guys don't like it, you get up here and lead. "
    Everyone shut up, but he quit shortly after. Which was good, because there would have been an "incident". I'd have paid good money to watch him tell the sissy parents exactly what he thought of them and their whiney bitch children. :tooth:
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,420 Senior Member
    I think the BSA is done, sadly. As was said before, the LDS church (of which I'm a member) is cutting ties with the BSA, and we were its largest supporter. I have been a rifle shooting merit badge counselor for over 7 years. In our area, I also got the opportunity to help with girl's instruction. It was a lot of fun.

    Our program going forward will be contained within the church now.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,571 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Went to the big area council meeting on this subject where they played a couple of videos from the director of the BSA on how they want to open new markets, blah, blah, blah.... And then outlined the plans for what they wanted to do with the cub scouts- basically have "separate but equal" cub scouts programs for girls. (Someone pointed out that 'separate but equal' will not pass any lawsuit) For Boy Scouts, they are trying to decide if they partner with another organization that already caters to females, or design their own parallel track that will allow girls to do the same things and earn the same badges (including Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow).

    Discussion got heated with the the actual scouts in attendance offering reasoned and logical arguments why the BOY Scouts should be for BOYS, and continue to lead BOYS into becoming men. Then there were the representatives from sponsoring churches saying that they will not sponsor a co-ed Boy Scouts... and then there were the strident and constantly offended women and California-transplants that were completely irrational and were all about "THERE IS NO WAY I CAN EVER GROW THE STONES TO TELL MY PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE DAUGHTER 'NO' TO ANYTHING, SO WE MUST CHANGE A 107 YEAR OLD PROVEN ORGANIZATION TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR ME!!!!"

    The BSA position was that this is DEFINITELY not about money, and that in NO WAY is the decision already made. Which, as anyone that has had a 9 year old around knows that when they say "There is nothing hidden under the bed!". they we know this is 100% all about money, and the decision has already been made.

    There was a survey that went out afterwards. We filled it out and said this is a REAL bad idea. But, on the bright side, maybe I wont have to go do Popcorn sales this year. Because selling small bags of mediocre popcorn for $20 a bag is just awful.

    So when do they plan on announcing the "final" decision? FWIW in general on this thread, popcorn sales are not about value, you are donating to Scouting and get some popcorn as a thankyou.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,385 Senior Member
    My buddies kid came up to me one day and was trying to sell me popcorn. I handed him $10 and said put it in the fund, here's 100% pure profit. They'd make more money saying "would you donate a dollar to help a scout?" Rather than selling $20 popcorn.
    But that's for ALL kids fundraisers.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,571 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    My buddies kid came up to me one day and was trying to sell me popcorn. I handed him $10 and said put it in the fund, here's 100% pure profit. They'd make more money saying "would you donate a dollar to help a scout?" Rather than selling $20 popcorn.
    But that's for ALL kids fundraisers.

    The Scouts are supposed to "work" for their fundraisers, they are not supposed to just go out and solicit funds. The only entity that can directly donate to a Troop/Pack is their charter organization. My kids learned a lot selling door to door.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,000 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    My kids learned a lot selling door to door.

    I did too - learned that almost nobody buys anything.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,077 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Exactly why a good friend of mine quit leading. Fortunately for all involved the only thing he said was "if you guys don't like it, you get up here and lead. "
    Everyone shut up, but he quit shortly after. Which was good, because there would have been an "incident". I'd have paid good money to watch him tell the sissy parents exactly what he thought of them and their whiney bitch children. :tooth:

    Many years ago, I coached a youth basketball team. The only reason I coached was because no one else would, and my son wanted to play.

    After a few games, which we lost, I got a phone call from one of the dads with all kinds of great advice. I told him I like his ideas, and asked if he could help me implement them. That's the last time I heard from him.

    I also spent a lot of years as a Boy Scout leader, and took a lot of leader training. It was very time consuming, but I enjoyed it immensely. There were always parents who never helped, but made sure their boys were there for every outing. Some of those kids EARNED their Eagle, too.

    Being a youth leader is truly a labor of love. If you look at it any other way, you should not do it.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,571 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    I did too - learned that almost nobody buys anything.

    My 2 middle sons together sold over $3k the last year they sold popcorn, most kids in our Pack/Troop sold into the $1-2K range easily.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,000 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    My 2 middle sons together sold over $3k the last year they sold popcorn, most kids in our Pack/Troop sold into the $1-2K range easily.

    That's great - it really is! Nobody ever sold anything much around where I grew up. Sigh...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,571 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    That's great - it really is! Nobody ever sold anything much around where I grew up. Sigh...

    Still have the TV they earned selling it too.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,000 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Still have the TV they earned selling it too.

    Cool beans!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,385 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    The Scouts are supposed to "work" for their fundraisers, they are not supposed to just go out and solicit funds. The only entity that can directly donate to a Troop/Pack is their charter organization. My kids learned a lot selling door to door.

    I get that, and that's a good thing. I'd rather see them work though, rather than be a salesman. I'll admit I'm jaded though, having two girls in multiple activities with multiple fundraisers will do that to a guy. I get the stink eye when I start questioning all the fundraisers, the actual profit margin, and the need for __________(fill in the blank with whoever has their hand out )
    But, I'm more of a thinker than a do what you're told type of person.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Johnny rebJohnny reb Member Posts: 384 Member
    Just like everything else in this day and time going too hell and a hand basket. Boy Scouts are not for females and my .02 a c ombat zone isn't either. i know it's not the same but we need too get over all this pc crap.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,946 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    Many years ago, I coached a youth basketball team. The only reason I coached was because no one else would, and my son wanted to play.

    After a few games, which we lost, I got a phone call from one of the dads with all kinds of great advice. I told him I like his ideas, and asked if he could help me implement them. That's the last time I heard from him.

    I also spent a lot of years as a Boy Scout leader, and took a lot of leader training. It was very time consuming, but I enjoyed it immensely. There were always parents who never helped, but made sure their boys were there for every outing. Some of those kids EARNED their Eagle, too.

    Being a youth leader is truly a labor of love. If you look at it any other way, you should not do it.

    That's the way it should be. I've seen kids get their Eagle because dad did most of the work, and I've seen kids with dad's that were either too lazy to help their kid or realized it is about the kid doing it not the parent. You could tell those kids that did the work themselves and later in life it showed. One I know did it himself. His stepdad was an older guy and had a lot of irons in the fire, so the kid did most all the work himself. He had a lot of love from both his mother AND the step father and moral support but he did the thinking and work himself. That boy is a college graduate, he's a supervisor in one of the local plants, and he has been the Grand Commander of the Knights Templar of the York Rite of Masonry in the Grand Commandry of the State of Texas, which was no small achievement. So making Eagle and doing it himself made him a man. He is an achiever.



    As for girls getting in Boy Scouts, they have their own organization. If those that want to see girls go into Boy Scouts really want to do this, they need to push Girl Scouts to do more outdoor activities similar to the Boy Scouts and make that organization more like Boy Scouts. But having been a boy I can tell you, there is something to be said for keeping them separate. There's things boys like to do when in the company of other boys without ladies present that would not work if were coed. I'm not talking about what some of you guys are thinking, though that happens too, but there's a lot of just plain comradery and brotherhoood if you will, in organizations like this. This is pure silliness on some peoples part.

    However, having said all that, I have said enough. It takes everything I've got without turning this into a political discussion. So I'll take my marbles and go find another marble game.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,907 Senior Member
    Johnny reb wrote: »
    Just like everything else in this day and time going too hell and a hand basket. Boy Scouts are not for females and my .02 a c ombat zone isn't either. i know it's not the same but we need too get over all this pc crap.
    I don't see it as PC crap. I see it as not telling groups of people "you're not allowed". Whatever the reason my be to exclude them. Be it sex, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability, etc. That said I also am against people trying to force different standards so they can be included. If someone from a traditionally excluded group wants to join give them the chance to try out on equal footing weather that is Navy seal training or the local hs football team.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,907 Senior Member
    I don't see it as PC crap. I see it as not telling groups of people "you're not allowed". Whatever the reason my be to exclude them. Be it sex, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability, etc. That said I also am against people trying to force different standards so they can be included. If someone from a traditionally excluded group wants to join give them the chance to try out on equal footing weather that is Navy seal training or the local hs football team.
    I will add I also don't think the boy scouts as a private organization should necessarily be forced to allow anyone in. They are a private club and it's their choice. But their choices will impact who will allow their kids to join and who will donate their time and money to the organization and may impact the degree to which they are given preferential access to federal resources.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,195 Senior Member
    I will add I also don't think the boy scouts as a private organization should necessarily be forced to allow anyone in. They are a private club and it's their choice. But their choices will impact who will allow their kids to join and who will donate their time and money to the organization and may impact the degree to which they are given preferential access to federal resources.

    And the supreme court agrees with you. HOWEVER.... once BSA lets girls in, and tries to pull a 'separate but equal' crap with them, the court will tear that apart and it will be co-ed troops, packs and dens.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,519 Senior Member
    One of the many attractive aspects of Freemasonry is its insistence on not being inclusive (as modern totalitarian-progressives define the term); especially in not admitting women. Masonry is, after all, a fraternity, not a sorority. We prefer to remain true to our historical and traditional roots, "social justice" be damned. The manner in which applicants are voted on to receive the Degrees gives each individual Brother in the Lodge absolute veto power over the application. No matter how many may vote in favor, it only takes one single black cube in the ballot box to "blackball" the application. Every Brother also has the power to object to the passing of an Entered Apprentice to Fellowcraft, or raising a Fellowcraft to the sublime Degree of Master Mason.

    These rules have been in place for over three hundred years, and no one I know in the Fraternity from the Grand Master on down has any interest in changing any of them in the slightest.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,195 Senior Member
    unbeknownst to me, my wife sent an email to the Girl Scouts asking if her son can join the Girl Scouts. Here is the reply:

    Subject: Boys Joining Girl Scouts-Case # 01844395 [ ref:_00DG0leqU._5000f1EBxYp:ref ]
    Thank you for writing with your question. No, Girl Scouts of the USA has been an all-girl organization since its inception in 1912, with no plans to change who can participate.

    Research shows that girls benefit most from a program designed specifically for them and delivered in an all-girl setting.

    Boys have unique needs and interests as well, which are best addressed by an organization structured to meet their specific needs.


    Sincerely,
    Lauren

    GSUSA Information & Referral Customer Care
    Girl Scouts of the USA
    420 Fifth Avenue
    New York, NY 10018



    Which I find hilarious.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,195 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    One of the many attractive aspects of Freemasonry is its insistence on not being inclusive (as modern totalitarian-progressives define the term); especially in not admitting women. Masonry is, after all, a fraternity, not a sorority. We prefer to remain true to our historical and traditional roots, "social justice" be damned. The manner in which applicants are voted on to receive the Degrees gives each individual Brother in the Lodge absolute veto power over the application. No matter how many may vote in favor, it only takes one single black cube in the ballot box to "blackball" the application. Every Brother also has the power to object to the passing of an Entered Apprentice to Fellowcraft, or raising a Fellowcraft to the sublime Degree of Master Mason.

    These rules have been in place for over three hundred years, and no one I know in the Fraternity from the Grand Master on down has any interest in changing any of them in the slightest.

    Yeah, but the Masons rule the world along with the Bilderbergers and Colonel Sanders. They don't HAVE to change
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,519 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Yeah, but the Masons rule the world along with the Bilderbergers and Colonel Sanders. They don't HAVE to change

    Before you ask, NO, I don't know where the Ark of the Covenant is, NO, I've never seen the Holy Grail, and don't even ask me about the DaVinci Code.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,069 Senior Member
    I made Eagle on 23 Sep 1972. Richard Nixon"signed" my certificate. I stayed in for another year, until about the time they issued a new handbook and started giving out beltworn "Skill Awards" for lessons we'd previously taken for granted went along with the rank you held. Not long after I got out, they went to a red beret as headgear.

    Things have to change with the times, but I'm glad I was in when I was in, and not a moment longer.

    20 years later, I went back in as an adult leader at the council level. Wow....things had changed even more.

    If this change is real, I'm not a fan.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,764 Senior Member
    Well, since no one is bringing up the elephant in the room, I guess I will....about the first couple of times a couple of female boy scouts get knocked up at a Jamboree perhaps some will reconsider the concept...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Johnny rebJohnny reb Member Posts: 384 Member
    Alpha why should everyone be allowed? The Orginization is called the BOY SCOUTS. They shouldn't conform too suit everyone.

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