Pepper ball, meet antifa groin.

2

Replies

  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 2,850 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Can a riot be a single person? I see one guy and a bunch of people calmly shooting video.

    UmjNcCl.jpg

    And you make that assumption based on one still shot from a short video. Not the entire situation in the area. Which is exactly why these things are not looked at by Monday morning quarterbacks who have the luxury of making a decision based on limited information after the fact, and not the totality of circumstances and what was perceived by the people on the ground at that time. The irrational disdain for the profession guides the perception. Not what actually happened.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,423 Senior Member
    To hell with the nut-shot protester. He played the game and got his just reward. I think it's amusing.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 2,850 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy kicked a can. He didn't throw it at anyone. He kicked it and returned to his position. The cops are wearing masks, riot gear, armor, AV's, helicopters, and fat boy with a water bottle and poor kicking skills is the imminent threat.

    I stand by my first statement: They shot him as punishment for kicking the can, NOT for being a threat.

    Here's where we get into the totality of circumstances. In your mind, which is made up by a short video clip and a disdain for an entire profession, this was a peaceful protest and the cops got mad at that guy and intentionally hurt him. You know nothing about what was happening in the area and during the time leading up to that event. And there needs to be some thought put into mob mentality. One agitator brings on more and the situation gets out of hand quickly. You don't let crowd agitators get out of control.

    As was pointed out, he didn't pick it up and throw it because it was hot. Those things burn hot. A real prepared crowd agitator would have had welding gloves with his gas mask. They're easy to spot in a crowd and you know those are the guys who's intent is to cause problems. So, you stop them.

    When you look at riots and crowd disturbances, when things start getting out of control, it has to be brought under control quickly. You deal with individuals, in an overwhelming crowd, being outnumbered and trying to control a large area. One on one is not an option. You find the ones who are there to cause problems and deal with them. The gas is to disperse the crowd. The pepper ball, bean bags and whatever other kind of individual attention there happens to be, is for the trouble makers. Don't be that guy. Then you don't get shot. Very simple, really.

    As far as standing by your first statement, of course you will. Nothing will change that. I know that. And that's fine. It's why I don't get into these discussions much. It will change nothing and that really doesn't matter to me. It's still fun having the discussion. At least others can possibly get something out of it.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 2,850 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Here we go again with the anti Cop crap that almost got this section closed down

    No need for it to come to that. No name calling or insults. Just a discussion that will not make any difference to those with their mind made up, but maybe provides info for others. :group:
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,477 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    No need for it to come to that. No name calling or insults. Just a discussion that will not make any difference to those with their mind made up, but maybe provides info for others. :group:

    Great way of thinking Jay, no wonder your a french model :up: :jester:
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,423 Senior Member
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 2,850 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.

    It didn't hit him there anyway. That was clearly shown. But you're right. Accuracy is not there enough to place that round on a semi moving target, in a stressful environment. Most pepper ball launchers are nothing but paintball guns. The FN303 is a rifled platform that shoots proprietary rounds and is accurate enough to place rounds like that, within a certain range and depending on circumstances. But we don't know what platform this was launched from. Either way, it was a good shot, good hit, and did exactly what it was fired to do.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 2,850 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Can a riot be a single person? I see one guy and a bunch of people calmly shooting video.

    UmjNcCl.jpg

    And let's take this still shot and look at it. A bunch of people, calmly shooting a video. Except for the guy right next to the target. Who happens to be standing at the front, video recording with his right hand, and flipping the police off with his left, while looking back at the crowd. Crowd mentality. Once the can kicker does his thing and nothing is done about it, Mr Bird takes this as his cue to lead the crowd with him. Then, 2 other calm video shooters decide, since nothing is happening up there, I'll come up to the front. Then 12 people join in. And we end up with LA, Fergusson, (insert your choice of riot here). It's a good thing when command takes these things out quickly. Otherwise, stand back and let it burn. Then, regular citizens tend to get upset...

    ETA, BTW, watch the video again. Notice what Mr Bird did when Mr Can Kicker went down? He didn't become the next crowd agitator. He left.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 1,979 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.

    Too bad the cop didn't nail him in the forehead. These leftist protestors need a good beat-down.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,820 Senior Member
    Personally, I am curious how in any way doing this stuff advances their cause? Getting shot with pepper balls and kicking tear gas canisters seem like an odd way to make a point.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,925 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Personally, I am curious how in any way doing this stuff advances their cause? Getting shot with pepper balls and kicking tear gas canisters seem like an odd way to make a point.

    It was the same thing back in the '60s regarding the stupid stuff the 'protesters' and rioters did. Only differences is there weren't 10,000 people videoing the whole thing on smart phones and small hand held video equipment, and the cops had a lot more leeway as to how they passed out pop knots on the protesters and rioters noggins. Only real difference I see is the news media being on the side of the protesters and rioters.
    Non Sibi Sed Patriage (Not for self, but country)



  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,255 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Looks like battery to me. If he'd been shot while approaching the canister, fine. Shooting him after returning to his position? Clear intent to cause injury....

    When the cops are wrong, I will speak against it. But this is not the case here. This guy came prepared and with a plan.

    From your post...
    18. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person whose conduct rises at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody.
    Combative, resistive, agressive, check

    19. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: This use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances and it is reasonable and necessary in order to attempt to avoid having to use deadly force.
    Better choice than shooting him, check. Safer for all involved, check

    20. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: Active Aggression is defined as a threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any person is imminent.
    resisted the break up orders, thus the gas in the first place, gas mask gives the ability to carry on being a dink through gas, check.

    21. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a suicidal person who cannot be safely controlled with other force options. The cops could have waded in with shields and clubs. Is using gas a alternative? Check.

    I dont see a problem here.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,786 Senior Member
    I think the guy got off easy. I would have probably charged him with whatever they let you have for a billy club, whenever he charged in to kick the can.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,852 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Personally, I am curious how in any way doing this stuff advances their cause? Getting shot with pepper balls and kicking tear gas canisters seem like an odd way to make a point.
    It's a valid question. I think the ones causing the trouble would argue that it brings media attention to the events and occasional police overreach can sometimes engender sympathy from the public. Many of them are extremist or anarchists and welcome the clash with authority and actually want to goad them into overreaction in attempts to delegitimize them.

    Many in their own side would say they bring the wrong kind of attention and do more harm than good. It's sortof the Malcolm X vs. MLK debate about who's strategy is the correct one.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,078 Senior Member
    When the cops are wrong, I will speak against it. But this is not the case here. This guy came prepared and with a plan.



    I dont see a problem here.

    Same here.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,104 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    And let's take this still shot and look at it. A bunch of people, calmly shooting a video. Except for the guy right next to the target. Who happens to be standing at the front, video recording with his right hand, and flipping the police off with his left, while looking back at the crowd. Crowd mentality. Once the can kicker does his thing and nothing is done about it, Mr Bird takes this as his cue to lead the crowd with him. Then, 2 other calm video shooters decide, since nothing is happening up there, I'll come up to the front. Then 12 people join in. And we end up with LA, Fergusson, (insert your choice of riot here). It's a good thing when command takes these things out quickly. Otherwise, stand back and let it burn. Then, regular citizens tend to get upset...

    ETA, BTW, watch the video again. Notice what Mr Bird did when Mr Can Kicker went down? He didn't become the next crowd agitator. He left.

    Very good point!
    Tag one guy in the gut and give him a bruise, or, let the city burn like Fergusson causing millions of dollars in damage, and risking the life of innocent people and first responders. Protesting is one thing. Acting like an ass by rioting, looting, and burning stuff down is another. At that point in my mind, you're bought and paid for.

    As far as what it (acting like an ass) does for their cause, it does NOTHING but make them look ...like a group of asses. INSTANTLY when average folks hear the name of said group (whichever group) they turn a deaf ear on ANYTHING they have to say.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,424 Senior Member
    It's a valid question. I think the ones causing the trouble would argue that it brings media attention to the events and occasional police overreach can sometimes engender sympathy from the public. Many of them are extremist or anarchists and welcome the clash with authority and actually want to goad them into overreaction in attempts to delegitimize them.

    Many in their own side would say they bring the wrong kind of attention and do more harm than good. It's sortof the Malcolm X vs. MLK debate about who's strategy is the correct one.

    Exactly, but in many cases what is seen as an "overreaction" by their sympathizers and the uneducated is simple legitimate accountability for their actions when they commit acts that are punishable either by criminal charges when they destroy property, or by immediate LE reaction such as being shot with non-lethal weapons or being subjected to forceful arrests when they resist. In all cases the LE community ends up being painted in a negative light to their sympathizers who observe this while saddled with all their pre-conceived doomsday notions, all the while providing endless entertainment to most folks who find that segment of the fringe basically intolerable and quietly giggle as they watch the videos.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,925 Senior Member
    Well, since tear gas isn't working to move the people out of the area, it might be time for the police to 'up the ante' as it were. Still a gas, but it's a lot more effective than CS. Bring out the chloropicrin gas and let the unruly protesters and rioters have all they can stand. Hard to get your 'righteous indignation' up to rock throwing level when you're puking up your toenails. Definitely takes the wind out of their sails.
    Non Sibi Sed Patriage (Not for self, but country)



  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,092 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    At first I thought you were being sarcastic.....then I realized you were actually making an issue of this.....


    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,232 Senior Member
    I wish the company making these non-lethals would come up with some way the give them accuracy enough so LEOs could target the idiots cell phones! Bruises heal but knock the cell phone out of a snowflakes hands with a pepper round and watch them really be offended.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,423 Senior Member
    If you run with the bulls, you can expect to get gored. He showed an intention to continue to kick gas canisters back (with is simple assault) and got gored. I guess he perhaps learned a lesson. Never question authority when authority brings an ass whooping with it.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,477 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"

    If he had been hit while approaching the canister then fell on the canister and got badly burned would it be the LEOs fault? Or would the Police have been wrong for shooting him because he hadn't kicked it yet?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,654 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"

    The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time....and got whacked by an errant projectile....what "authority" is there to question?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,021 Senior Member
    As a moderator (who's keeping a close eye on this board), I have to admit, this thread has been civil.

    I'm proud of you folks.

    Various opinions, but civil.

    That's pretty much all we were asking.
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,852 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"
    Government overreach and excessive force is always ok when used against people you strongly disagree with!
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,021 Senior Member
    And, as a Marine, it was entirely within the ROE to shoot someone in the back while they were running away after attacking you. In fact, it was highly recommended.

    If they stopped and turned around, well........

    Antifa idiot.

    See my sigline.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,979 Senior Member
    Kneecap him with a 5.56 and see if he tries to kick anything, ever again. Maybe he could run over the next gas canister with his wheelchair! Unless these idiots start taking some real casualties, they're going to keep thinking it's all a big game and they're immune to any consequences.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,021 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Kneecap him with a 5.56 and see if he tries to kick anything, ever again. Maybe he could run over the next gas canister with his wheelchair! Unless these idiots start taking some real casualties, they're going to keep thinking it's all a big game and they're immune to any consequences.
    Jerry

    .556 would be a bit harsh in that particular situation. I think the LEO's did exactly what needed doing, with the proper level of force.

    And let's face it....as Zee observed it was likely an errant, albiet lucky, shot.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,979 Senior Member
    I agree- - - - -anything over .50 caliber would be inappropriate in that situation!
    :jester:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,021 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I agree- - - - -anything over .50 caliber would be inappropriate in that situation!
    :jester:
    Jerry

    Darn spell check
    😉
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
2

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file