.308 Win- vs - 6.5 Creedmore

bullsi1911bullsi1911 ModeratorPosts: 8,971 Senior Member
After the holidays, I am probably going to start building a 'precision' rifle (unless I get distracted by another proje... SQUIRREL!!). A while ago, I started goofing around with some long range stuff, and have really started enjoying it. I have been going back and forth on doing either a Chassis rifle, or doing something more traditional.

My current thought is to get a Ruger American Predator, and build from there. Why the RAP? Well, the Ruger Precision Rifle is built off of the American Action, so I know from personal experience that it is capable being built to go out past 700 yards. Why not just get the RPR to start? Because I wont be able to afford an RPR right off the bat, and I can get the RAP locally with the Vortex 4-12x44 scope package for right around $500, and it has the heavier contour, threaded barrel that the regular American does not. This way, I can have an out-of-the-box rifle that I can use to shoot now, and then buy the MagPull Hunter stock when it becomes available to have a better stock and get rid of the Ruger rotary mags that seem to be the Achilles heel of these rifles.

HOWEVER, here is the problem. Ruger knows that a long barrel RAP would cut into the sales of the RPR. So, they only offer the .38 WIN version of the RAP with an 18" barrel. Personally, I would like to stick with the .308 just because I already have loading components, ammo, and other .308 guns. I don't feel like starting off scratch with a new caliber... but the RAP in 6.5CM is offered with a 22" barrel. What to do?

Ruger American Pred .308:
http://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/16954.html
Pro- common caliber.
Con- I have an 18" barrel .308. Longer barrel would give more velocity to go for the longer ranges.

Ruger American Pred 6.5 Creedmore:
http://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/16953.html
Pro - Longer barrel, and the Creed really shines out past 500, and I already know my DPMS can ring steel at 500.
Con- Have to get a whole new round, reloading dies, bore brushes, etc... The 6.5 has about half the estimated barrel life of the .308.

Thoughts?
To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
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Comments

  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 5,878 Senior Member
    For what you are wanting to do I say just stick with the .308. The 18” barrel will be giving up 50-100fps, don’t think it will matter.

    The 6.5 Creedmore will outshine the .308 past 500 yards. Ok, how much father past 500 are you planning on going?

    The .308 will still do 90+% of what the 6.5 Creedmore will; it just does it a mite slower.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,553 Senior Member
    For what you are wanting to do I say just stick with the .308. The 18” barrel will be giving up 50-100fps, don’t think it will matter.

    The 6.5 Creedmore will outshine the .308 past 500 yards. Ok, how much father past 500 are you planning on going?

    The .308 will still do 90+% of what the 6.5 Creedmore will; it just does it a mite slower.
    Agreed. I was talking with someone about the 6.5 vs. .30 cal deal the other day, and they pointed out that a .308 is pretty effective even farther than folks think. Look at Zee's recent posts. While the 6.5s are going to make doping the wind easier, drop's not really an issue. It's steady and you can correct for it. Some folks are recommending those who want to get into the long-range game start with a .308: ammo and rifles are readily available, there's lots of good load data out there, components are easy to get, yada yada yada. And, by the time you wear out the barrel or get a new rifle you'll have learned so much that you can handle a bit more distance or wind pretty easily.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 18,963 Senior Member
    How far do you plan to shoot?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,584 Senior Member
    I'm a fan of 6.5

    I question the estimated "half the barrel life" though.

    Since you are pushing similar powder charges through a smaller bore, I can see SOME decrease, but unless you're shooting it to scorching hot regularly, I don't see a 50% increase in wear.
    The scorching hot part will increase wear in a 308 as well.

    My reasoning for 6.5?
    140gr ELD-Match G1 .610, G7 .305. 147gr ELD-Match G1.697, G7 .352
    To top the 140 with a .308" bullet requires using their 208 ELD-Match G1 .690 G7 .348

    The heaviest factory 308 load Hornady lists is the 168gr. In their Superformance line they list a MV of 2840fps and 2700fps in their "regular" line
    147 ELD-M in 6.5CM is listed at 2695fps
    140 ELD-M is rated at 2710.

    What does all this work out to?

    200 yard zero drops at 500:
    168 Superformance: -41.9"
    168 Match: -47.0"
    140 Match: -44.0"
    147 Match: -43.2"

    Unfortunately Hornady doesn't list wind drift on their site, but I can assure you that the with similar MVs the higher BC is ALWAYS going to have less drift.

    As an aside, I've never gotten acceptable accuracy from their Superformance line, in the 3 cartridges I've tried. So while it's the fastest of the 4 loads I listed, Unless I found an accurate lot of it, I would discount it from the discussion.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,971 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    How far do you plan to shoot?

    The majority will be 3-500 yards, but we do have a spot at the lease that we can get 1000 yards, it just takes a bit to get the target set up there.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,971 Senior Member
    Look at Zee's recent posts.

    which is why I was asking the barrel length of his .308.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,971 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    I'm a fan of 6.5

    I question the estimated "half the barrel life" though.

    It's something I have read in a couple places online. Which means it could be a complete urban legend.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,584 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    It's something I have read in a couple places online. Which means it could be a complete urban legend.
    Not saying it isn't true, just find it hard to believe though.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,687 Senior Member
    I whole heartedly support building as you go. While the RPR is a pretty neat rifle, it's a $300 rifle in a $900 chassis. Quite honestly Ruger should be embarrassed on the gritty ass bolt feel on a $1200-ish dollar rifle. And I've yet to figure out why one needs a hand guard on a bolt gun. Other than it being marketed to the gear queer crowd, it serves no purpose. But, I'm willing to be enlightened.

    As to chambering, Zee had proved the 308 viable. Especially at the distance you will be shooting.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,971 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I whole heartedly support building as you go. While the RPR is a pretty neat rifle, it's a $300 rifle in a $900 chassis. Quite honestly Ruger should be embarrassed on the gritty ass bolt feel on a $1200-ish dollar rifle. And I've yet to figure out why one needs a hand guard on a bolt gun. Other than it being marketed to the gear queer crowd, it serves no purpose. But, I'm willing to be enlightened.

    As to chambering, Zee had proved the 308 viable. Especially at the distance you will be shooting.

    The more I look at the Magpull American stock, the more I like it. Gives the adjustable cheekpeice, LOP, AICS mags, and attachment points without looking too EBRish. Only thing that would be better is if it took DPMS pattern magazines.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,687 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    The more I look at the Magpull American stock, the more I like it. Gives the adjustable cheekpeice, LOP, AICS mags, and attachment points without looking too EBRish. Only thing that would be better is if it took DPMS pattern magazines.
    Yes. This. In spades. Although I'm cool with the AICS pattern since Magpul now makes them that aren't higher than balls on a giraffe in price.
    Now if Savage would quit changing their design every few years, Magpul would make a stock for them. But with 5-6 different versions, they will never do it. I say that to hopefully one day eat my words. But I doubt that will happen.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,629 Senior Member
    They also make that rifle in 6mm CM - something to consider.

    I wouldn't spend any $ on that particular Vortex scope especially considering the stated purpose of the rifle. Get the rifle without the scope and buy a better piece of glass.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 18,963 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    which is why I was asking the barrel length of his .308.

    The shortest .308 Win rifle barrel I have is 16.5” and I’ve shot them out to 800 yards.

    The ones I’m using for 1,400-1,760 yards have 24” & 26” barrels.

    The .308 will do things people who think they know.........say it can’t do.

    However, for an aspiring distance shooter, 18” of barrel is not doing you any favors. Out to 500 yards, not a problem. And as I said, I’ve shot the 16s to 7/800.

    If you truely want want to shoot distanceof 1,000 and more. I’d go with a longer .308 barrel or the 6.5cal.

    If ypu stick wirh the .308 Win........let me know........I know a guy might have some brass.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,971 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »

    If ypu stick wirh the .308 Win........let me know........I know a guy might have some brass.

    This is how some guy got me loading .243.

    Edit- which was another one I did not think I wanted to go to because I did not want to stock all the stuff for a new caliber. Huh.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,687 Senior Member
    .243 is an option as well...since you already load for it. And of course, I enjoy saying "you load for it."
    Justify all you want, you're assimilated.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 18,963 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    This is how some guy got me loading .243.

    Edit- which was another one I did not think I wanted to go to because I did not want to stock all the stuff for a new caliber. Huh.

    There’s reasons to stay with the .308 cartridge family.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,629 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    There’s reasons to stay with the .308 cartridge family.

    You should see how the .243 performs at a mile next time...
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,082 Senior Member
    Go with .308; reloading will allow you to tailor your ammo specifically for the situation needs regardless of distance and logistics regarding loading equipment is something to consider. 6.5 shines above 500 yards and might be flatter, but with the proper optics your .308 will do the job at long distances.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,687 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    You should see how the .243 performs at a mile next time...

    Yes. Yes he should.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,704 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Yes. Yes he should.

    I can see advantages to either the .308 Win. or the 6.5 CR, but not sure how far you plan to shoot. I don't recall what barrel length Zee used and too lazy right now to go chasing that thread down, but I would think for really long range stuff you'd do better with a 26" or 28" barrel. I say buy either and start saving for a good match barrel in whichever cartridge you end up wanting. Then you can have that barrel you bought installed later. You can buy the 6.5 now and still shoot fairly long range, for now. But remember, 500 yards ain't REAL LONG RANGE anymore.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,704 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    It's something I have read in a couple places online. Which means it could be a complete urban legend.
    I don't believe that crap either. It will no doubt wear your barrel faster than a .308, but I can't see twice as fast. Besides, common sense will go a long way to slowing down throat erosion. Unless you're in the firefight of your life you don't need to shoot til you can fry eggs on the barrel. I don't think you're into such fool sport, but just saying because of what is written on the net. There's all kinds of BS theories there, and most are based on half truths. I've read several accounts where it has been said that you can burn the barrel out on a .264 Win. Mag. in as few as 500 rounds. But as popular as that cartridge is down here, I've never seen nor read of a real example. I think most people that own them are serious hunters and shooters and know better than to shoot it til you can cook a brisket on the barrel.

    In other words, get what you want and put that worry out of your mind. Whatever you do just enjoy your toy.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,584 Senior Member
    You, in post #21
    snake284 wrote: »
    I don't recall what barrel length Zee used and too lazy right now to go chasing that thread down,
    Too lazy to scroll up 7 posts????

    Zee in post #14 OF THIS THREAD
    Zee wrote: »

    The ones I’m using for 1,400-1,760 yards have 24” & 26” barrels.

    .
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,704 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    You, in post #21Too lazy to scroll up 7 posts????

    Zee in post #14 OF THIS THREAD

    Yep, today pretty much so.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 16,584 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Yep, today pretty much so.

    Fair enough
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • shooter10mmshooter10mm Member Posts: 203 Member
    I do see Barrel life shortened in the 6.5 due to the great bearing surface of long accurate 6.5/.264 caliber bullets. Exactly why the .264Win mag was plagued a barrel eater back in it's popular day. However, you shooting below 3000fps. I don't see it chewing up bores that frequently!
    I'm a new 6.5 Creedmoor fan, the Ruger Predator is too accurate to only cost $400. Period. And it kills stuff just the way I though it would!
    "You miss 100% of the shots you do not take!"
    "As long as there's Lead in the air there's hope!
    " -- Ralph Adkinson(Daddy) The original Marlboro Man
  • 41magnut41magnut Senior Member Posts: 1,103 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    After the holidays, I am probably going to start building a 'precision' rifle (unless I get distracted by another proje... SQUIRREL!!). A while ago, I started goofing around with some long range stuff, and have really started enjoying it. I have been going back and forth on doing either a Chassis rifle, or doing something more traditional.

    My current thought is to get a Ruger American Predator, and build from there. Why the RAP? Well, the Ruger Precision Rifle is built off of the American Action, so I know from personal experience that it is capable being built to go out past 700 yards. Why not just get the RPR to start? Because I wont be able to afford an RPR right off the bat, and I can get the RAP locally with the Vortex 4-12x44 scope package for right around $500, and it has the heavier contour, threaded barrel that the regular American does not. This way, I can have an out-of-the-box rifle that I can use to shoot now, and then buy the MagPull Hunter stock when it becomes available to have a better stock and get rid of the Ruger rotary mags that seem to be the Achilles heel of these rifles.

    HOWEVER, here is the problem. Ruger knows that a long barrel RAP would cut into the sales of the RPR. So, they only offer the .38 WIN version of the RAP with an 18" barrel. Personally, I would like to stick with the .308 just because I already have loading components, ammo, and other .308 guns. I don't feel like starting off scratch with a new caliber... but the RAP in 6.5CM is offered with a 22" barrel. What to do?

    Ruger American Pred .308:
    http://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/16954.html
    Pro- common caliber.
    Con- I have an 18" barrel .308. Longer barrel would give more velocity to go for the longer ranges.

    Ruger American Pred 6.5 Creedmore:
    http://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/16953.html
    Pro - Longer barrel, and the Creed really shines out past 500, and I already know my DPMS can ring steel at 500.
    Con- Have to get a whole new round, reloading dies, bore brushes, etc... The 6.5 has about half the estimated barrel life of the .308.

    Thoughts?
    One of the criteria set forth in the original discussions of the 6.5 CM was long barrel life. I cannot recall specifics, but I assume =/> the 308.

    I know of people shooting Palma rifles, and winning, with round counts exceeding 5000.

    How much less life would a CM?

    As far as NRA competition is concerned, rifles in the CM would be limited to F-Open, and High Power Match Rifle, and there ard other calibers that are dominant in those catagories. As such I don't know any one to ask about barrel life expectancy.

    I am sure there are shootist in the Precision Rifle Series (PRS) that have substantial round counts, and could comment on the number of rounds fired and when they have a marked decrease in accuracy. Sadly I do know any personally to ask.

    I have a RA-P in the 6.5 CM.

    As I have said before, a rifle as inexpensive as this should not shoot this well. I had a MagPul Huntrr Stock on B/O (dropped the b/o) @ MidwayUSA, or strongly considering a Boyd's AT stock.

    Again, the rifle is so blessed accurate w/various factory ammo, as issued, I hate to mess with sucess.

    I am considering a Timney trigger, but I have to ask myself, will I gain anything.

    I have (had) some pictures of groups fired by both SS3 and myself, and fired by myself that even I might not believe w/o witnesses. I will attempt to find these and post same for your amazement & amusement.

    Having said all this, I doubt you would be disappointed using the RA Predator as a donor for a custom build.

    Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen :iwo:
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,704 Senior Member
    oh i agree, a smaller diameter bullet with a large case meaning a more overbore cartridge is going to erode the throat more than a cartridge with a bigger bore for similar case capacity. But I don't think a 6.5 diameter is going to do it twice as fast. I believe the stories of .264 Mags doing it in 1000-1500 rounds, not 500 unless it's severly abused. You can probably burn out a .308 in a thousand rounds if you shoot it till it turns red.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 6,691 Senior Member
    Either will work.
    The Creed will have less recoil and do better in the wind
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,056 Senior Member
    Just pick one. Flip a coin. 6.5CM ammo isn’t scarce on the shelf and costs no more or less than match grade 308 on the shelf.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 6,691 Senior Member
    My comparison is based on the 168 Hornady (.523) versus the 140 grain (.610) Hornady ELD-M's.
    If loading, it should cost less to load for the 6.5, because of less bullet weight.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
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