I use XXXX for home defense to prevent overpenetration...

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 12,602 Senior Member
Fellow shoots drywall sheets with .22 LR: Velocitor and Stinger to see how may walls it will penetrate.

Out of a pistol he got through 4 -5 walls, out of a rifle 5 walls. .22 LR. "Weak ammo."

Makes you think...
Overkill is underrated.
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    9mm 115 gr. went through 10 panels. That equals 5 walls. And it penetrated farther into the ballistics gel backer than a .223 fired during the same test.

    Point to posting these videos is: if you're worried about over-penetration, pretty much anything will do it.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,784 Senior Member
    I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.
    I think you're exactly right. But I've also heard/read several folks say they use certain loads because "if I miss, I'm less likely to get over-penetration" or some such comments. I happened to stumble upon this.

    I have read that the frangibles do minimize the issue, but I've read of other issues...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,072 Senior Member
    There is a reason (many actually) that most entry teams have switched to the .223 Rem.

    The 9mm MP5 is soooooooo, 90s.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    I think it was Clint Smith who ran through a shoot house with a 9mm, .45, and a .223 and shot targets and intentionally missed the targets. He used ball and duty ammo.

    The results favored the rifle rounds.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,979 Senior Member
    I seem to remember that 4-X products were supposed to make penetration easier- - - - -back when that made a difference!
    :uhm::jester:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,688 Senior Member
    Wow. Of course I have to ask how many walls would a .270 go through - but this test is impressive. I would have guessed 2 or 3 (wall equivalents).
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,254 Senior Member
    I was going to say, marriage.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 30,712 Senior Member
    I use sometimes YYYY and ZZZZ you CCCC........................whatever pleases me me me me................he he he he...............:tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,022 Senior Member
    I use .357 because I have lathe and plaster with an aggregate base coat...:guns:
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 22,782 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.

    The average BG is probably closer to 11.5 to 12 inches thick, ; but, I expect your correct.
    I have a need for speed
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,099 Senior Member
    I was going to say, marriage.

    Since you stole my comment, I'll correct you. Marriage doesn't prevent over penetration, it prevents ALL penetration.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,061 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Since you stole my comment, I'll correct you. Marriage doesn't prevent over penetration, it prevents ALL penetration.

    When someone is murdered the very first suspect is ALWAYS the spouse...and that says pretty much all there is to say about marriage.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    If you have ever wondered what is the best thing to use for home defense vs. nekked chickens, this is a must watch video. :jester:

    It does drive home the difference in energy transfer of 9MM vs. .223 vs. 12 gauge 00 buck.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    ...not really. His "energy transfer" videos use pretty poor replication and poor metrics of performance. Look at his site, and you'll see the videos are more about how can we make a "cool" video rather than actual testing.

    Here's some other threads where he's discussed his "tests" and methodologies.
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?30098-9mm-vs-40-vs-45-the-cinder-block-test

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?30071-9mm-40-and-45acp-on-Pigs-Heads
    Overkill is underrated.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,128 Senior Member
    ...not really. His "energy transfer" videos use pretty poor replication and poor metrics of performance. Look at his site, and you'll see the videos are more about how can we make a "cool" video rather than actual testing....

    And why are chickens always 'nekkid' in these videos? Shouldn't they be wearing some clothes like in the wild?
    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,784 Senior Member
    Mythbusters used to do stuff like this with pigs, which probably emulates a human quite a bit closer, but they neglected to differentiate between the ammo, i.e. you never knew if they were using SD type hollowpoints, or FMJ, which makes a lot of difference.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    I never said anything about energy transfer to a human body....just nekked chickens.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Mythbusters used to do stuff like this with pigs, which probably emulates a human quite a bit closer, but they neglected to differentiate between the ammo, i.e. you never knew if they were using SD type hollowpoints, or FMJ, which makes a lot of difference.
    Pigs are better, if nothing else because their torso's kinda sorta close to a human's. Better, especially, if you're using expanding ammo because that stuff takes time to expand...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    I never said anything about energy transfer to a human body....just nekked chickens.
    And his methodology doesn't demonstrate "energy transfer" well because the bullets may or may not just pass through the body before upsetting/expanding, and WHERE he hits the target can also affect perceived energy transfer.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,231 Senior Member
    To me this is like the handgun capacity or extra mag topic ... do what makes you feel best for your situation. I don’t think as much about how a round will penetrate as much as the trajectory I am send it on. I try to think about what is behind the target and actually want to shoot more kneeling with an upward trajectory to put the round rising for any over penetrating strays.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    My point in posting the videos was more to show that if you're worried about over penetration if you miss.... pretty much anything will do it. Maybe a .22 CB cap, but otherwise you'll get pass-throughs in drywall walls.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    And his methodology doesn't demonstrate "energy transfer" well because the bullets may or may not just pass through the body before upsetting/expanding, and WHERE he hits the target can also affect perceived energy transfer.

    Surely you didn't take my comments seriously? :confused: For future reference, any postings that mention "nekked chickens" were written "tongue in cheek". :roll2:

    I watched his video where he compares the "penetration" of 9MM vs. .223 vs. 12 gauge 00 buck by standing five pieces of 2x4 up next to each other (not even nailed down) and shoots them........that was kind of pointless. All he proved was that he could knock them over......wait....maybe he didn't even prove that. He missed his first shot with the AR-15 and didn't even realize it. :rotflmao:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    I wonder if he's an actual "academy?" In other words: does he actually train people.

    I hope not. His videos are slightly entertaining, but as Dan Chamberlain pointed out in one of the threads I referenced, you learn as much or more about energy transfer by shooting steel plats.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    I wonder if he's an actual "academy?"

    I seriously doubt it. He appears to be a one man show with a cell phone video camera and a YouTube channel.

    Hmmm.......maybe I could start my own "academy" and teach people how to blow up watermelons with 12 gauge slugs? I have a GoPro and a VEPR-12, that ought to get me enough followers to make me feel important. :jester:
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,128 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    I seriously doubt it. He appears to be a one man show with a cell phone video camera and a YouTube channel.

    Hmmm.......maybe I could start my own "academy" and teach people how to blow up watermelons with 12 gauge slugs? I have a GoPro and a VEPR-12, that ought to get me enough followers to make me feel important. :jester:

    Knowledge is easy and perhaps this guy doesn't even have that but what you really need is Showmanship, dancing bear meets carnival barker type stuff.

    Maybe even put a scarf and some pants on those nekked chickens because :love: Maybe you could hang the nekked chickens from strings and we could really study the momentum exchange for some backyard science.

    You'll be a Youtube guru!

    :worthy:
    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    Hmmm........ I think maybe I will have someone lob frozen turkeys at me and I will analyze what is the best zombie goose defense round. :jester: I am sure I would get at least one subscriber.....from Nebraska. I don't have a goose blind in a frozen cornfield to defend, but maybe I could simulate one with a beach towel and a sand dune.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,128 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    Hmmm........ I think maybe I will have someone lob frozen turkeys at me and I will analyze what is the best zombie goose defense round. :jester: I am sure I would get at least one subscriber.....from Nebraska. I don't have a goose blind in a frozen cornfield to defend, but maybe I could simulate one with a beach towel and a sand dune.

    How about nekked chicken on a bungee cord to test the 21 foot rule. Armed nekked chicken with a knife vs. armed citizen.
    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,010 Senior Member
    A .410 shotgun loaded with #6 shot will go through 5/8" sheetrock, the 4" dimension of a pine 2x4, and wood exterior siding. At a range of about 8'.

    After that, it'll leave one heckuva splat mark in a Live Oak a dozen feet behind the exterior wall. (Thank god for suitable, though unintentional, backstops).

    And indoors, even a small shotgun knocks your ears out of commission upon detonation. And "smokeless"?...forget that. You'll likely not see anything clearly above your belt.

    You can learn a lot by your own mistakes that YouTube doesn't cover.

    Not that I recommend this as a method of training, but I have fired a shotgun indoors and hope I never do again. But at least I know what to expect. Anything is going to over penetrate if you miss.

    That said, if you have to repell boarders, any shotgun is pretty much better than anything else.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 577 Senior Member
    Spk wrote: »
    How about nekked chicken on a bungee cord to test the 21 foot rule. Armed nekked chicken with a knife vs. armed citizen.

    Now you are getting my creative juices flowing! How about testing the best ammo for turning Kung Fu Chicken into Kung Pow Chicken? I think maybe a custom 12 gauge load with miniature Ginsu knives and some dragon's breath.......:rotflmao:
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