Let's talk about dreamers

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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    Ellis Island. I am not sure exactly when. I think before or during the Bolshevik Revolution.

    Now a question for you... For this whole Dreamer thing, I got this image in my head of a bunch of ACORN community organizer types filling out citizenship applications and having some clueless aliens sign them. Are the classes and stuff a prerequisite before you can apply, or does that come later?
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    That they're being used as a voting block or vilified to patronize another voting block was my initial impression. Such a perspective offers me no view as to who these people actually are.

    That is certainly the political motivations behind the debate. The point of the thread is to get beyond that into who these people are and what is the best way to deal with them.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    So I'm not an expert on immigration laws either, but from what little I know I don't think there is currently any way for them to become citizens currently while remaining in the US. That is the problem the bill democrats want is supposed to solve. To allow them to stay legally. Details about if and how they can become citizens are the tough parts to negotiate out. I'm actually fine with a bill that grants them a green card without allowing them to become citizens.

    As for the solution to just deport them all, that seems exceptionally harsh. It would be like if they decided to deport me to Hungary where my grandfather was from. I have never been there, have no known family there, and don't speak the language. What the heck would I do? I also am very weary of the idea of punishing someone for a crime committed by their parents. Would you lock up a child in a car seat in the getaway car from a bank robbery? How about a kid who lives with parents who deal drugs? That's how I see it at least.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    As for the solution to just deport them all, that seems exceptionally harsh. It would be like if they decided to deport me to Hungary where my grandfather was from. I have never been there, have no known family there, and don't speak the language. What the heck would I do? I also am very weary of the idea of punishing someone for a crime committed by their parents. Would you lock up a child in a car seat in the getaway car from a bank robbery? How about a kid who lives with parents who deal drugs? That's how I see it at least.
    I do not see that option on the table at all. Here is what the man wielding the veto pen has to say and it is nothing close to that...

    http://time.com/4927100/donald-trump-daca-past-statements/
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I do not see that option on the table at all. Here is what the man wielding the veto pen has to say and it is nothing close to that...

    http://time.com/4927100/donald-trump-daca-past-statements/

    The Man in the Oval Office speaks out of both sides of his mouth on pretty much every issue. The current default policy now that the original Obama policy has been eliminated by Trump is that all of these people are now considered no different than any other illegal immigrant and can be deported at any time. I do think Trump is willing to give in on this issue to throw a bone to Dems in negotiation on broader immigration policy including his wall (as useless as we both know that is). It's not clear that enough of the rest of his party is.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 8,498 Senior Member
    As for the solution to just deport them all, that seems exceptionally harsh. It would be like if they decided to deport me to Hungary where my grandfather was from. I have never been there, have no known family there, and don't speak the language. What the heck would I do? I also am very weary of the idea of punishing someone for a crime committed by their parents. Would you lock up a child in a car seat in the getaway car from a bank robbery? How about a kid who lives with parents who deal drugs? That's how I see it at least.

    No, but I wouldn't let them keep the $$$ either.....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    No, but I wouldn't let them keep the $$$ either.....
    And I sure as heck wouldn't want to let them keep the money and then send it to Mexico.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,685 Senior Member
    Take a look, a good close look, at Salinas, California. Gangland central. Then tell me how these 'innocent children' should stay here.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,473 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Not the case....there are "dreamers" who are currently serving and others who are veterans....no rules against non-citizen serving.....
    The military evens assists them with filing for citizenship....

    Exactly
    I currently work with two. One from Nicaragua the other from Colombia. Both served proudly, became citizens and are raising families.
    Both were so angry about the "Dreamers" and the current situation.
    Give them a chance, if they dont take it. Goodbye to them and theirs.
    Been here 20 to 30 years and never did a thing to become legal? Bye Bye
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 1,408 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Exactly
    I currently work with two. One from Nicaragua the other from Colombia. Both served proudly, became citizens and are raising families.
    Both were so angry about the "Dreamers" and the current situation.
    Give them a chance, if they dont take it. Goodbye to them and theirs.
    Been here 20 to 30 years and never did a thing to become legal? Bye Bye

    I agree. Give them a path to citizenship. If they take it, fine, welcome.to the USA. If they dont, then leave.
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 1,408 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »

    In my opinion, at least 1 parent should be an American citizen, before their child.can get citizenship at birth.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,614 Senior Member
    First, it's all about marketing. "Dreamers" sounds so much better than " foreign born children of illegal immigrants". The idea of harming these "children" whom some are into their 40's is again marketing and heart string pulling. There are both political and financial motivations.

    Children under 18 need to be deported with their families. First, by definition they are here illegally and are the wards of their respective parents. What happens to them is not our problem, but the problem of their origin countries. This is a universally accepted procedure for all countries that can send illegal back to their points of origin.

    Those over the age of 18 should be evaluated. These are by definition independant adults. The real question here is how.

    Stolen from Newsweek Online ...

    An estimated 22 percent of illegal immigrants are under age 25, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

    The Migration Policy Institute said in 2016 that about 1.9 million people were eligible for DACA.

    About 788,000 have had their requests for DACA status accepted, according to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

    In order to apply for DACA, immigrants had to be younger than 31 on June 15, 2012.

    They must have come to the U.S. before turning 16. They must have lived in the U.S. since June 15, 2007.

    In a Center for American Progress survey of roughly 3,000 DACA recipients, nine-tenths of respondents said they had jobs.

    Their average hourly wage was $17.46 an hour, up from $10.29 before receiving DACA.



    Perhaps application for citizenship with a stringent guideline. First, declare them felons, living illegally in the USA as adults, removing their voting rights and right to keep and bear arms, etc. Second, offer a program for a path to citizenship, within 2 years, including service. I hear they will need a bunch of labor to build that wall!

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,050 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Ellis Island. I am not sure exactly when. I think before or during the Bolshevik Revolution.

    Now a question for you... For this whole Dreamer thing, I got this image in my head of a bunch of ACORN community organizer types filling out citizenship applications and having some clueless aliens sign them. Are the classes and stuff a prerequisite before you can apply, or does that come later?

    When my parents came to the US in early 1958, the immigrants of that period had sponsors arranged when they got here that lived in the areas that they would be located to. If you had relatives here, they could help you get situated but if you didn't, you were placed in a part of the country that needed laborers which was the Midwest during that industrial period. My parent's sponsors helped them get housing, jobs, and with the process of becoming citizens. If I recall correctly, it took a few years before they became citizens and my brother who was born in Yugoslavia and was about a year old when my folks got here became a citizen when my parents did.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,417 Senior Member
    Blanket solutions are useless on either extreme. You can't deport them all and you can't just hand out a full amnesty. Too many good ones will be punished, too many bad ones will be rewarded. An immigration and citizenship system based on merit is the only solution but unfortunately both sides are too caught up in using this bloc of humans as a political chess piece...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,478 Senior Member
    If you make citizenship into the US free, it will be worth nothing.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,779 Senior Member
    Deport the parents sure. If the kids are still minors I'd maybe even be ok with sending them back too. But if you've been here most of your life and this country is all you know and you're now and adult, leave them alone. Commit a felony sure send them back, sorry you lost your chance, but everyone else, we've got way bigger problems to deal with.

    There is probably a Republican majority that already holds these positions. The problem is that Democrats, while pretending to hold these positions, insist on other legislation that will negate all of the common sense parts of such a DACA bill. Visa lottery and chain migration render them moot points, because they allow a continuous flow of illegals, with help for them when they arrive here to bring even more illegals in. And that's not to even mention all of the legal immigrants being allowed in with insufficient vetting to screen out potential terrorists.

    Immigration is a loser for Democrats. Sure, it wins them all sorts of support from the illegal aliens already here, and their race-only single issue activist groups, but the voters are against nearly every part of what they propose, if the polls that govern Democrat policy are to be believed. Democrat leadership is trying to cram this down the throats of their opposition with hate-speech and lies in their media outlets, but the voters are not buying it, according to the polls that ask un-tainted questions, without labeling which side wants what.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    RugerFan wrote: »
    In my opinion, at least 1 parent should be an American citizen, before their child.can get citizenship at birth.
    But that would require repealing the 14th Amendment.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Take a look, a good close look, at Salinas, California. Gangland central. Then tell me how these 'innocent children' should stay here.
    Even minor offenses are supposed to get legal resident aliens the boot out of this country. Trump has made a strong effort to make sure that gets enforced. Stripping citizenship and deporting a naturalized American citizen is next to impossible, if at all.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,976 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    the voters are against nearly every part of what they propose, if the polls that govern Democrat policy are to be believed.

    I wonder how many voters like us there are out there who routinely hang up on pollsters, or just set the phone down and let them talk to dead air until they give up? Polls predicted a Hildabeast win- - - - -remember that?
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    When my parents came to the US in early 1958, the immigrants of that period had sponsors arranged when they got here that lived in the areas that they would be located to. If you had relatives here, they could help you get situated but if you didn't, you were placed in a part of the country that needed laborers which was the Midwest during that industrial period. My parent's sponsors helped them get housing, jobs, and with the process of becoming citizens. If I recall correctly, it took a few years before they became citizens and my brother who was born in Yugoslavia and was about a year old when my folks got here became a citizen when my parents did.
    That sounds very similar to how they have been settling refugees currently.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,779 Senior Member
    I've got no problem with the 14th Amendment. But I've also got no problem with deporting the illegal parents, and I assume that they will take their child with them. If the child wants to return when he/she is an adult, he/she simply needs to produce his/her birth certificate. Or, if his/her parents choose to leave their child with a legal relative, fine. They can go home and later queue up at the gate with the necessary documentation to enter legally, and having done so, can begin the naturalization process, or keep renewing their temporary status. I have a French aunt that has lived here legally for over 50 years without becoming a citizen.

    This is the law of the land, at this time, and it makes sense, regardless of how heartbreaking it is for the persons who tried to cheat the system. It should be the govrnment's default position to enforce the law.

    However, if the Congress votes for it and the President signs it, I have no problem with a bill that excuses some of these people, under certain circumstances in which they have done no harm, if they were children when they came here, and if they have behaved as good citizens. The burden is on them to prove these facts. Furthermore, any such law that provides this exception should stipulate a cut-off point, so that it doesn't encourage others to sneak their kids over and hide them until they become eligible.

    Meanwhile, the border has to be controlled, by walls, fences, guards, dogs, drones, alligator moats, Navajo trackers, rednecks in dune buggies or on horses, or whatever else is needed to do the job efficiently and humanely. If everybody wants to call this "The Wall," it's fine with me. I'd just like for them to do whatever makes the most sense and accomplishes the task to the satisfaction of the people (not some Beltway functionary).
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Simple solution for them....enlist in the armed forces, serve 4 years honorably and you are granted citizenship.....easy peasy....
    For the 20% that are selected...

    https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/2014/05/14/80-of-military-recruitments-turned-down.html

    I was one of those 80% rejected. Does that make me a lessor human being? While I strongly agree that anyone who has served in our military honorably deserves to be in our country, not everyone can serve in our military but can still contribute to society.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,779 Senior Member
    I suggest that if the border is being controlled, and illegals are being deported, it won't be long before the government makes it easier for non-criminals to re-enter on work permits or visas, and that those who were deported have a leg up towards proving the good citizenship tendencies that would streamline their return. Sure, it's a pain in the ass for them, but not an unreasonable one for someone who has broken immigration laws. In fact, I think that Trump and most Republicans would support it, as soon as there is solid law in place and the border control has proven out.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Take a look, a good close look, at Salinas, California. Gangland central. Then tell me how these 'innocent children' should stay here.
    Ok sure, commit a felony get deported. Simple solution. Same generally applies to other legal immigrants. Or are you saying because some may commit crimes all should be deported?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Blanket solutions are useless on either extreme. You can't deport them all and you can't just hand out a full amnesty. Too many good ones will be punished, too many bad ones will be rewarded. An immigration and citizenship system based on merit is the only solution but unfortunately both sides are too caught up in using this bloc of humans as a political chess piece...
    Pretty much
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    There is probably a Republican majority that already holds these positions. The problem is that Democrats, while pretending to hold these positions, insist on other legislation that will negate all of the common sense parts of such a DACA bill. Visa lottery and chain migration render them moot points, because they allow a continuous flow of illegals, with help for them when they arrive here to bring even more illegals in. And that's not to even mention all of the legal immigrants being allowed in with insufficient vetting to screen out potential terrorists.

    Immigration is a loser for Democrats. Sure, it wins them all sorts of support from the illegal aliens already here, and their race-only single issue activist groups, but the voters are against nearly every part of what they propose, if the polls that govern Democrat policy are to be believed. Democrat leadership is trying to cram this down the throats of their opposition with hate-speech and lies in their media outlets, but the voters are not buying it, according to the polls that ask un-tainted questions, without labeling which side wants what.
    Well there is at least more than enough votes to get it passed. Problem is there probably isn't a majority of Republicans in the house because too many of them gain too much politically by bashing immigrants and blaming them for all the problems in this country. That and Ryan won't hold a vote on anything that can't pass almost entirely with Republican votes.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,808 Senior Member
    I am all for a secure border or at least making it as secure as it is practically possible. Some may have got the idea that I wasn't on the wall thread, but that isn't true. I am for stuff that works, and against an ineffective yet costly symbol that is paid for with magic pixie dust and delusion.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I wonder how many voters like us there are out there who routinely hang up on pollsters, or just set the phone down and let them talk to dead air until they give up? Polls predicted a Hildabeast win- - - - -remember that?
    Jerry
    Polls predicted that she would get more votes than Trump. She did by 3 million.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,849 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »

    Does that make me a lessor human being?

    In the eyes of many unfortunately yes. In their eyes the only way to truly and patriotically serve your country is to carry a rifle.

    Way off topic, but what I feel like we desperately need is some form of voluntary civil service program that provides many of the same benefits (although not all) to young Americans who want to contribute to this great nation while helping to train and prepare them for a career. Provide room and board and a minimal stipend with some educational benefits at the end of 2 years and have them help in national parks, support the border patrol, etc. etc. lots of useful things we could have them do.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,040 Senior Member
    Well there is at least more than enough votes to get it passed. Problem is there probably isn't a majority of Republicans in the house because too many of them gain too much politically by bashing immigrants and blaming them for all the problems in this country. That and Ryan won't hold a vote on anything that can't pass almost entirely with Republican votes.

    And too many dems gain politically by defending DACA, regardless of how they really feel about it. To boil it down, it's really nothing more than a political football for elected officials.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.

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