FOUR deputy sheriffs failed to enter the building.

Wambli SkaWambli Ska ModeratorPosts: 25,704 Senior Member
Now the police is saying they found FOUR deputy sheriffs cowering when they got there...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5428851/FOUR-deputies-failed-enter-school-building-shooting.html

Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, was branded a 'coward' by President Trump after it emerged he waited outside the building during the recent mass shooting that claimed the lives of 17 students and teachers.
Now Coral Springs police officers have revealed that when they responded to the shooting, they found another three Broward County Sheriff's deputies cowering behind their vehicles, law enforcement sources told CNN.
Not one of the four deputies had entered the school, sources said.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5428851/FOUR-deputies-failed-enter-school-building-shooting.html#ixzz581ojtIwC
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"Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,602 Senior Member
    I want to hear the calls to all the deputies.

    I bet they were ordered to set up a perimeter, the high sheriff now denies it, and they're being hung out to dry so he can save his (elected) career.

    Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,113 Senior Member
    I want to hear the calls to all the deputies.

    I bet they were ordered to set up a perimeter, the high sheriff now denies it, and they're being hung out to dry so he can save his (elected) career.

    I suspect these guys were trained to never enter a hostile situation without an MRAP accompanied by SWAT.

    We live in an age were traffic warrants and overdue books are served by SWAT teams.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    Hopefully soon to be ex sheriff israel
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,194 Senior Member
    I think in the days and weeks ahead we'll discover what a political hack the Broward 4 star cop
    really is. Three more coward cops cowering behind their cars, each shot they hear is another
    dead kid. I guess they left their Tactical uniform home that day. Five or six of those kids could have
    been saved
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,244 Senior Member
    While I am not sure about the true timeline I believe all shooting by Cruz was done prior to the most LEOs arriving on scene and he had slipped out. From the time he entered the building to when they think they see him on cameras cutting across the athletic field it’s just 8 minutes. So from start of firing to dropping his stuff to getting out and across the field ... 8 minutes. I’m say some LEOs did roll up to the sound of gunshots but I’m gonna guess he had stopped maybe 6 minutes from when he first entered so what sounds were coming from inside the school ... besides the students screaming that kept these deputies from entering?
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,437 Senior Member
    I want to hear the calls to all the deputies.

    I bet they were ordered to set up a perimeter, the high sheriff now denies it, and they're being hung out to dry so he can save his (elected) career.

    Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

    That turd is a sleazy, anti-gun, democrap-loving NY liberal. I won't bet on it, but I hope the people of Broward County vote that SOB OUT.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,114 Senior Member
    In defense of the LEO's, it would be foolish to go charging towards the sound of gunfire without knowing what was happening. It takes a few moments to try and figure out how many people are shooting and where they are and six minutes goes by pretty fast. The LEO's may have been hiding behind their cars pooping themselves, they may have been following orders, or they may have been trying to assess the situation. Again six minutes goes by fast and there was an extremely chaotic environment and I would like to hear more before I dig out my pitchfork.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 223 Member
    6 MINUTES, Law enforcement officer, 6 minutes, **** firing an AR-15 at 60 rnds a minute?, Law enforcement officer you gonna wait 6 minutes-360 rounds fired at children and you can still live with yourselve ?






    I would not be able to:(



    Still prayers for the victims and their families
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,070 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    In defense of the LEO's, it would be foolish to go charging towards the sound of gunfire without knowing what was happening. It takes a few moments to try and figure out how many people are shooting and where they are and six minutes goes by pretty fast. The LEO's may have been hiding behind their cars pooping themselves, they may have been following orders, or they may have been trying to assess the situation. Again six minutes goes by fast and there was an extremely chaotic environment and I would like to hear more before I dig out my pitchfork.

    Yea I say BS. It's their job to go charging in, especially in a school. Now they may have had orders, but like was said, sitting there while kids a being gunned down? Orders can be broken.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I want to hear the calls to all the deputies.

    I bet they were ordered to set up a perimeter, the high sheriff now denies it, and they're being hung out to dry so he can save his (elected) career.

    Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

    This and what CaliffL said.
    I always suspect from the top down.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,362 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Yea I say BS. It's their job to go charging in, especially in a school. Now they may have had orders, but like was said, sitting there while kids a being gunned down? Orders can be broken.
    Without all the facts I'll say:
    This. ^ Orders? " you and your orders, Sheriff. "
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,910 Senior Member
    I am going to reserve judgement on this for now. Sadly, there have been too many conclusions that have been jumped to on this incident already. Just like writing my reps-- they aren't even back in session until Monday. I want to see what they intend to do before I say anything. Town hall meetings were held when some of the dead weren't even buried yet. This deserves calm, deliberate assessment.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,704 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I am going to reserve judgement on this for now. Sadly, there have been too many conclusions that have been jumped to on this incident already. Just like writing my reps-- they aren't even back in session until Monday. I want to see what they intend to do before I say anything. Town hall meetings were held when some of the dead weren't even buried yet. This deserves calm, deliberate assessment.
    I agree. Just wanted to mention here that it is the local PD dumping on these guys because by the time THEY responded they found the 4 DS outside hiding behind their cars. While all the facts are not out yet and I believe there is a lot more to the story there is no way an active shooter scenario in a SCHOOL would call for a bunch of supposedly TRAINED armed LEOs to adopt a wait and see position. But what do I know... so I'm not asking for ropes and low branches yet but it does not look or smell good from where I sit.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,020 Senior Member
    Why is it that every police chief or sheriff we see hogging the microphone after one of these incidents has at least four stars on his collar, scrambled eggs on his hat, and more fruit salad on his chest than the average 30-year military veteran? I've seen peacocks with less ostentatious plumage!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,764 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    In defense of the LEO's, it would be foolish to go charging towards the sound of gunfire without knowing what was happening. It takes a few moments to try and figure out how many people are shooting and where they are and six minutes goes by pretty fast. The LEO's may have been hiding behind their cars pooping themselves, they may have been following orders, or they may have been trying to assess the situation. Again six minutes goes by fast and there was an extremely chaotic environment and I would like to hear more before I dig out my pitchfork.

    The national STANDARD in active shooter incidents is for first arriving officers to engage the perpetrator whether they are alone or not.... it's a proven tactic to minimize casualties. All that remains is having the balls to do it.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,704 Senior Member
    And so we are clear, courts have already ruled that LEOs are under NO obligation to risk their lives to save yours or anyone else's. Again just stating a fact. This has NOTHING to do with individual LEOs characters and their passion for their work. We have some active and retired ones here that I KNOW would have gone into that building in a nanosecond to do what their conscience requires of them. Some do take their oaths to serve and protect to heart. Just SEEMS that it's less and less of them as time goes on. When their brass tell them daily that their only job is to come home every day what else can you expect.

    You can't hire or manufacture warriors, they are BORN that way. I think it was Zee that posted some time ago something that said out of a hundred that go into battle only ONE is a warrior, and I think that number is optimistic...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,901 Senior Member
    I'll also reserve judgement till the media frenzy is over. It looks bad, but they apparently have some video that may establish the timeline, and that is critical, especially with competing LE organizations trying to justify their actions.The guy who has retired is a slam-dunk, apparently, but there is likely more to come on all of the others.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    The national STANDARD in active shooter incidents is for first arriving officers to engage the perpetrator whether they are alone or not.... it's a proven tactic to minimize casualties. All that remains is having the balls to do it.....

    This for sure. Our DA Security folks train right outside my office window. When the call goes out, nobody hesitates.

    How much worse would the Ft Hood incident have been if SGT Munley had taken a position behind her car instead of running into the Services building?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,113 Senior Member
    Gov Rick Scott is calling for gun control measures and more RSO's in schools. Floridians are expected to pay for more cops who won't engage when needed most?

    I realize this particular RSO and the responding DS's may be the exception, but IMO it sends a powerful message. Kids were dying and LE did nothing.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,114 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    This for sure. Our DA Security folks train right outside my office window. When the call goes out, nobody hesitates.

    How much worse would the Ft Hood incident have been if SGT Munley had taken a position behind her car instead of running into the Services building?


    Good point.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,636 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    I think in the days and weeks ahead we'll discover what a political hack the Broward 4 star cop
    really is. Three more coward cops cowering behind their cars, each shot they hear is another
    dead kid. I guess they left their Tactical uniform home that day. Five or six of those kids could have
    been saved

    So. . .you'd have them charge into a totally unknown situation on individual initiative with total disregard for chain of command and no plan of action whatsoever, potentially turning it into a greater rescue mission for kids AND wounded/dead cops?

    The sucky reality of law enforcement is that it will ALWAYS be reactive to situations like this, and law enforcement will almost always be on the outside trying to figure out how to get in. The attacker(s) will have all the time in the world to plot out initial and counter-moves, and the entire purpose of their exercise may be to suck in & kill LEO's. Yes, their job is to deal with the threat and save as many lives AS POSSIBLE, but there is no requirement for them to be stupid about it.

    You want to keep these soft targets safe? Then you have to make them hard targets with the guns of the would-be rescuers on the inside pointing out. I really don't see what's so damned hard to grasp about that.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,362 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    So. . .you'd have them charge into a totally unknown situation on individual initiative with total disregard for chain of command and no plan of action whatsoever, potentially turning it into a greater rescue mission for kids AND wounded/dead cops?

    The sucky reality of law enforcement is that it will ALWAYS be reactive to situations like this, and law enforcement will almost always be on the outside trying to figure out how to get in. The attacker(s) will have all the time in the world to plot out initial and counter-moves, and the entire purpose of their exercise may be to suck in & kill LEO's. Yes, their job is to deal with the threat and save as many lives AS POSSIBLE, but there is no requirement for them to be stupid about it.

    You want to keep these soft targets safe? Then you have to make them hard targets with the guns of the would-be rescuers on the inside pointing out. I really don't see what's so damned hard to grasp about that.
    To your first paragraph, yes.
    You see a *child* with a gun, you find and shoot him. Or he sees you and either drops the weapon or swallows it. All of the above actions also perform one key common action: they shift the dirtbgs attention to self preservation/suicide from shooting kids. Rocket science, right?
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    All I've heard all week on the radio (my main news source) is that teachers don't want the burden of being armed, it's badly misdirected resources, and will lead to disaster. Default to draconian gun control as the only answer. In face of such seemingly insurmountable opposition, voluntarily armed staff could even be an iffy sell. Uniformed, trained security will be our only realistic option. Good guys (plural) with guns on the inside.

    The chior understands, everyone else not so much.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,704 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    So. . .you'd have them charge into a totally unknown situation on individual initiative with total disregard for chain of command and no plan of action whatsoever, potentially turning it into a greater rescue mission for kids AND wounded/dead cops?

    The sucky reality of law enforcement is that it will ALWAYS be reactive to situations like this, and law enforcement will almost always be on the outside trying to figure out how to get in. The attacker(s) will have all the time in the world to plot out initial and counter-moves, and the entire purpose of their exercise may be to suck in & kill LEO's. Yes, their job is to deal with the threat and save as many lives AS POSSIBLE, but there is no requirement for them to be stupid about it.

    You want to keep these soft targets safe? Then you have to make them hard targets with the guns of the would-be rescuers on the inside pointing out. I really don't see what's so damned hard to grasp about that.

    YES, if an armed LEO is anywhere in or around ANY school grounds I expect them to run straight to the sound of gunfire with weapon drawn. Of course I’m working under the probably failed assumption that said LEO is getting paid to be on premise to protect the people in the school from exactly this scenario and not to get on the radio/phone to call in the cavalry. If the second is the case it’s money poorly spent since ANY idiot with a cell phone can do that...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,020 Senior Member
    "Weapons change- - - - -warriors don't". The distasteful reality is that the reaction to an active shooter situation is going to be entirely dependent on the personal integrity of the cop on the scene. If he's basically a paranoid coward who wears a badge and carries a gun because that's the only way he feels comfortable going out into the big, dangerous world every day, he's going to hide and wet his pants when the bullets start flying. If he's got a pair of balls a hairy baboon would envy, he's going to step up and do everything possible to "protect and serve"- - - -including giving his own life if necessary- - - - -to honor the promise he made when he put on the uniform. Apparently, the cowards who hid and waited for backup were a bunch of eunuchs.

    "Training" cannot instill the sort of personal courage and commitment to duty it takes to confront long odds- - - -on the battlefield or as a LEO. That has to come from within, and if it's not there, no amount of training can substitute for personal integrity.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    Why isnt the RSO walking the halls of the school? Why only one for a school that size? And not run toward a problem? Gun shots are loud and pretty directional, you move toward it not away. His job was to protect children. He didnt.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • HummerHummer Member Posts: 53 Member
    Distinguished Rifleman High Power & Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), US Palma Teams, US Dewar Teams. Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground. Charter Member Int Wound Ballistics Assn. NRA Benefactor, Shriner, AC4HT
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,190 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    So. . .you'd have them charge into a totally unknown situation on individual initiative with total disregard for chain of command and no plan of action whatsoever, potentially turning it into a greater rescue mission for kids AND wounded/dead cops?


    Yes. Like they did in Vegas

    https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/sound-guns/
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    Hummer wrote: »

    WOW CNN has no loyalty at all.

    But, if true, Sheriff Israel should not fall on his sword as some have suggested, him and his cowardly deputies should be spit roasted with it.

    That **** stood on stage on national television and blamed it on guns and the NRA. I knew he was dirty before he got elected. One of the kids he gut punched and kneed in the nads while handcuffed when a lieutenant is now a co worker of mine.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,459 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    In defense of the LEO's, it would be foolish to go charging towards the sound of gunfire without knowing what was happening. It takes a few moments to try and figure out how many people are shooting and where they are and six minutes goes by pretty fast. The LEO's may have been hiding behind their cars pooping themselves, they may have been following orders, or they may have been trying to assess the situation. Again six minutes goes by fast and there was an extremely chaotic environment and I would like to hear more before I dig out my pitchfork.

    While it may be foolish to go charging toward the sound of gunfire, that's SOP now for school shooting. Previously, it was wait for a SWAT team, but after the VA Tech shooting, it was realized that some risks are worth taking. I wrote the SOP for our response to a school shooting and it was immediate intervention by the first officer on the scene to minimize casualties. Sometimes, you're duty bound beyond the natural desire for self defense. Risks, yes. It's why cops exist.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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