Off-The-Wall Ideas about school safety

2

Comments

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    earlyagain said:ii
    A coffee can of marbles at every doorway. Hear the shooter coming, dump the can at their feet.

    I like this one Early, good thinking. You can't shoot very well when you're trying like hell to stay on your feet but the floor isn't cooperating.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    Not a bad brain storm idea Snake. It may not be a practical or good idea, but there may be some merit to it too.
    Which one?
    Flash bangs. Maybe not in every classroom (they have been known to kill people in close quarters and you know a kid-- or myself-- would love to get their hands on one). It could be a tool worth looking into for certain personnel though.
    That's my thoughts exactly Jeremy. Not for everybody but certain assigned individuals. I'm not real warm and fuzzy on every teacher being armed either. But in any group you will find a couple who are experienced and comfortable with and around guns. Maybe two or three teachers, a principal, maybe a janitor or a resource officer. Arm 2 or 3 and have a hot line to law enforcement to get them on the scene fast. And no dumbasses like at Parkland who don't have the balls of a gnat and won't pursue a bad guy who's killing innocents.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,677 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    bisley said:
    Personally, I'm more into the ideas that make schools an unattractive target than just 'forting up.'

    I like the ideas that turn high school students into adults, at least to the extent that those who are able should look for ways to fight back by outnumbering and overwhelming a lone attacker. Ideas that help them to survive, whether by flight or fight should be encouraged by their local school boards, with as much parental participation as can be mustered.

    Senior boys are months away from becoming soldiers, Marines, etc., so a certain percentage of them can be empowered as leaders who will fight back, if faced with a desperate situation, If all they are taught is to run away, they won't have a plan and will miss any opportunity that they might have had to save themselves and others. It's completely possible that one of them might find himself within 20 feet of an attacker, with the gun pointed the other way - perfect for a bull rush that could knock him loose from the gun, or allow him to be taken out by two or three fired up teenagers.
    Granted, I am MORE than a little cynical when it comes to the public education system, but there are a couple of problems with this approach, admirable as the sentiments behind it are:

    1.  We've got this institutionally-entrenched sheeple mindset that sends kids home for drawing pictures of guns or wearing NRA tee shirts along with preaching of a mantra that violence doesn't solve anything.  These folks are so in love with academia that they never LEFT academia, and committing acts of violence even in defense is a concept most of them can't even comprehend - let alone teach.  In a discussion of Sun Tzu's The Art of War, they haven't even found the fingerpaint and crayons.

    2.  Assuming you can get past the problems of #1, you still have to sell the parents on it.  Half are going to cough up a hairball at the notion in much the same way the aforementioned educators will (How dare you teach my little Johnny such warlike behavior!).  The other half will silently nod and go along at the PTA meeting, then immediately go home and tell their kid "I don't care if they told you to stand your ground and throw staplers!  Let the OTHER kids take one for the team - YOU get the hell out of there!"

    3.  Public schools are home to some of the worst impulses of human behavior, what with their cliques of popularity, exclusion, shaming, assimilation, and lack thereof.  One side is that it's pretty hard to convince anyone at the dawn of their life, who has barely even contemplated their own mortality, to shift out of that gear at a moment's notice to lay it all down for someone else.  The other side. . . as I hinted at in my first post, about all I had in common with most of my fellow students was that we were inmates in the same prison, and when I graduated, I was paroled and DONE with them.  If you'd have suggested at age 16 that I risk a bullet to save any but a small, select handful, I'd have laughed long, loud, and hard at the notion.  

    4.  While some of them may be months away from becoming Soldiers and Marines, they haven't had anything like that kind of structured programming yet, so for the most part, you're still dealing with 1 through 3.

    So. . .this notion of active security from within. . .I have my doubts.

    But to get back to my moats and draw-bridges. . .they might still have boiling oil in the cafeteria fryer.  Unless that's too much trans-fat for the current era.
    I agree that you are more than a little bit cynical, but you are right that some schools simply won't do it. But, the ones who do take charge will make it something less than a slam dunk for would be attackers. The ones who won't make an effort to fight back will draw attackers away from the slightly hardened ones, logically.

    And, in the event that students and teachers do successfully foil an attack, it will be a game-changer, just as implementing concealed carry laws have been on crime, in some areas.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,677 Senior Member
    How about piping in some psy-ops music, like the 1st Cav in Viet Nam, except use Ernest Tubb and Kitty Wells, maybe some Tiny Tim...maybe Gene Autrey or Burl Ives singing Christmas carols.  After the marbles and flash-bangs, it might send him out the door, screaming. You could also release some of the skunk scent stuff, like what they put into natural gas pipelines, so you can detect a leak.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,677 Senior Member
    And don't forget dogs.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,548 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    no dumbasses like at Parkland who don't have the balls of a gnat and won't pursue a bad guy who's killing innocents.
    How, exactly, does one determine that before the fact? The SRO at Parkland was apparently a well respected officer with a good service record....just never evaluated for his ability to stand to when lives were at stake....


    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    You don't. That's impossible until someone invents a mind reader. But, this stuff is taught, or rather it is emulated. The Sheriff should show a good example. This clown Israel never showed anybody anything positive. If I worked for a jerk like him I doubt I would risk my life for anybody. I would be in survivor mode. I have a son in law that is sheriff in this county. He leads by example. The guys AND gals all love him. They would walk through hell in gasoline drawers for him. When people vote for a sheriff that's the one character trait that should be at the top of the list. I will rephrase what I said, we need inspired people guarding our youth.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,381 Senior Member
    Butt Jerm could be an air cannon!
    Uh, dude, that isn't air...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    edited March 26 #40
    Yeah, air doesn't wilt the flowers.....
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,766 Senior Member
    Butt it smells like flowers!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,381 Senior Member
    Jermanator said:
    Butt it smells like flowers!
    That line doesn't work with my wife either...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,548 Senior Member
    edited March 26 #43
    OK....I've got this worked out....a stand of pikes and a stack of ballistic shields in every classroom. 
    Phys Ed is required to include 2 hours of pike drill every week.

    When the alarm sounds all physically able students fall out into the hallway and form a wall to wall phalanx behind a wall of ballistic shields....they advance towards the bad guy until they pinhim against a wall or another phalanx...

    When it's all over, put the bad guys head on a spike outside the school as a warning...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 7,309 Senior Member
    Simple way to stop school shootings..............is to ban schools.
    If you want to stop students going berserk with guns............ban students.

    Put a politician in every corridor at every school. It may not stop school shootings ...........but at least we can get rid of a few useless people..........I dont think very many people would be upset if some got shot.

    Sound sensors in every school corridor and classroom that are linked to tear gas containers. As soon as they detect a gunshot, the tear gas dispenses. This would also help identify the active shooter cos he would be the one wearing a gas mask..........

    Subject every student to a psychiatric exam before they attend a class or enter school grounds. If they dont pass, make them become politicians...........

    Use the PA system to confuse possible shooters. Here is an example of how to do it...... Just change the words to include 'gun free zone'.............

    Pass a law to say that all school shootings must be carried out using a 270. We know they are a weak, non effective calibre and will result in non fatal school shootings and will limit injuries to just bruises and scratches.......

    I have a lot more ideas, but need to pack my gear cos its goat culling time.........

     


    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,677 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    OK....I've got this worked out....a stand of pike and a stack of ballistic shields in every classroom. 
    Phys Ed is required to include 2 hours of pikes drill every week.

    When the alarm sounds all physically able students fall out into the hallway and form a wall to wall phalanx behind a wall of ballistic shields....they advance towards the bad guy until they pinhim against a wall or another phalanx...

    When it's all over, put the bad guys head on a spike outside the school as a warning...
    I actually thought of something like this, before the golf cart idea took hold. :)

    It worked for a hundred years or so for the Romans, against archers, as well as spear-chuckers and swordsmen.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,548 Senior Member
    It would be perfect if their team name was the Spartans....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,278 Senior Member

    I was trying to think of something as tongue in cheek and useless as many of these suggestions. I was then presented with this news article.

       http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-school-district’s-plan-to-stop-shooters-arming-students-with-a-bucket-of-rocks/ar-BBKCTqk?li=BBnb7Kz

    It mimics the old saying "Dumb as a box or bucket of rocks". Now I had to come up with something more idiotic. How about issuing all students and staff "Gun Free Zone" placards. When the deranged shooter saw these they would say something like "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't know". Then immediately leave without firing a shot.  

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,548 Senior Member
    Speaking of 'less than lethal' methods, there IS a new 12 gauge round that shoots a self contained Taser round. Just have one of those in each classroom under lock and key with teachers volunteering for training. Once the shooter comes into the hallway all the teachers light him up with 5-6 Taser rounds each. If the shooter survives THAT, then the cops can arrest him.

    Also like the dog angle. Train the dogs to go to the gunfire and attack the shooter. Let them gnaw on him for as long as it takes to make him stop moving. "Then cry HAVOC and release the dogs of war!" Might be interesting.

    The ballistic shields and spears sounds good, too. Have archers in the back of the phalanx. At the distances that would normally be encountered, archers could make it unhealthy to be downrange. Head of shooter on a pike outside the school is also a good idea as a warning. The phalanx of ballistic shields and spears is easy to train; did that without the shields but with fixed bayonets for riot control in the guard. If the NG can train that, then the students could also do that. With the shields and spears all they'd have to master is the 'Step-Thrust' movement.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,278 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Speaking of 'less than lethal' methods, there IS a new 12 gauge round that shoots a self contained Taser round. Just have one of those in each classroom under lock and key with teachers volunteering for training. Once the shooter comes into the hallway all the teachers light him up with 5-6 Taser rounds each. If the shooter survives THAT, then the cops can arrest him.

    Also like the dog angle. Train the dogs to go to the gunfire and attack the shooter. Let them gnaw on him for as long as it takes to make him stop moving. "Then cry HAVOC and release the dogs of war!" Might be interesting.

    The ballistic shields and spears sounds good, too. Have archers in the back of the phalanx. At the distances that would normally be encountered, archers could make it unhealthy to be downrange. Head of shooter on a pike outside the school is also a good idea as a warning. The phalanx of ballistic shields and spears is easy to train; did that without the shields but with fixed bayonets for riot control in the guard. If the NG can train that, then the students could also do that. With the shields and spears all they'd have to master is the 'Step-Thrust' movement.

    Thank you for bringing back memories from Basic Combat Training. There were about 2 dozen National Guard in my Company. We were required to complete 16 hours of Civil Disturbance training on a weekend. Not a problem as we were not going to spend a weekend at the beach from central Missouri (Ft. Leonard Wood). More likely would have been spent cleaning the barracks. It was actually pretty good training. On Saturday we split equally. NG verses protesters/rioters who were armed with water balloons. We trained with riot batons and plastic face masks like we had used in Junior High/High School shop class then switched places. On Sunday we wore gas masks and used our rifles with fixed bayonets (scabbards on). We simulated tear gas with smoke grenades then again switched places. The phalanx you describe could be effective verses a school shooter. Overall I had a pretty good time in BCT. Of course I was 25 years old and single so suffered no home sickness and graduated on my 26th Birthday.    
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    To follow up on Bigslug's moat and drawbridge idea: fill the moats with sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads. If we run into too much red tape for that, we could at least start with some ill-tempered sea bass.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,390 Senior Member
    Why is education a function of the government and state? Amend the state constitutions and dissolve the school systems. Place the onus on the parents for the education of their children. No schools, No school shootings.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 500 Senior Member
    Why is education a function of the government and state? Amend the state constitutions and dissolve the school systems. Place the onus on the parents for the education of their children. No schools, No school shootings.
    Surely you know why the public education system was created?
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,548 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 said:

    Thank you for bringing back memories from Basic Combat Training. There were about 2 dozen National Guard in my Company. We were required to complete 16 hours of Civil Disturbance training on a weekend. Not a problem as we were not going to spend a weekend at the beach from central Missouri (Ft. Leonard Wood). More likely would have been spent cleaning the barracks. It was actually pretty good training. On Saturday we split equally. NG verses protesters/rioters who were armed with water balloons. We trained with riot batons and plastic face masks like we had used in Junior High/High School shop class then switched places. On Sunday we wore gas masks and used our rifles with fixed bayonets (scabbards on). We simulated tear gas with smoke grenades then again switched places. The phalanx you describe could be effective verses a school shooter. Overall I had a pretty good time in BCT. Of course I was 25 years old and single so suffered no home sickness and graduated on my 26th Birthday.    
    If you remember that, then you remember being on the 'wrong side' of the bayonets during that training. Being on that other side and seeing that is scary even though you know it's just training. It's one of those things that has to be experienced to be fully understood and appreciated. Humans have a well deserved respect for sharp pointy things pointed at them. Part of the gas mask training with that drill that I remember is that every other man donned gas masks while the others held their ground against any fools stupid enough to try to break the ranks.

    We also did the inverted chevron formation (point at rear instead of front) with another chevron behind us armed with nightsticks and cuffs. The really unruly were to be thrown back into the second chevron, tuned up with the nightsticks, and bound hand and foot and left on the street. A deuce and a half was behind that chevron with a few of the biggest guys loading the bound 'protesters' into the back of the truck. Take out the true agitators and the rest of the resistance tends to crumble.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,390 Senior Member
    Why is education a function of the government and state? Amend the state constitutions and dissolve the school systems. Place the onus on the parents for the education of their children. No schools, No school shootings.
    Surely you know why the public education system was created?


    Depends on where you start the story. I know about the Puritan establishment of schools so that children could read the Bible. I also know that the first Tax Payer funded school System was started in the South during the Reconstruction Era.

    But if folks think the 2a is outdated, then surely in this day and age Public Schools are too. The amount of information available to people is astounding. They don't need to attend school to learn things.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,555 Senior Member

    The amount of information available to people is astounding. They don't need to attend school to learn things.

    Very true.  We have all kinds of people expounding on things they have no experience in in many subjects.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,677 Senior Member

    The amount of information available to people is astounding. They don't need to attend school to learn things.

    Very true.  We have all kinds of people expounding on things they have no experience in in many subjects.
    I represent that remark.

    In my defense, I hold back for as long as I can, to let someone else rebut the Democrat narrative talking points, but I just can't leave them laying out there, unchallenged.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    edited March 28 #57
    Why is education a function of the government and state? Amend the state constitutions and dissolve the school systems. Place the onus on the parents for the education of their children. No schools, No school shootings.
    Surely you know why the public education system was created?


    Depends on where you start the story. I know about the Puritan establishment of schools so that children could read the Bible. I also know that the first Tax Payer funded school System was started in the South during the Reconstruction Era.

    But if folks think the 2a is outdated, then surely in this day and age Public Schools are too. The amount of information available to people is astounding. They don't need to attend school to learn things.

    Shane, I see your point, however, without structured learning important subject matter will be overlooked. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean everyone or even just a simple majority will find it.

    Structured education has its place. The problem is it depends on who has the handle on what that structure consists of. We as a citizenry failed to keep up with what was going on and let the left have their way with what they were teaching our kids. Now we have a situation akin to what happened in Nazi Germany before and during the war, with kids turning their parents over to the Nazi authorities for any infraction of the Nazi's brutal rules. No our kids arent selling us out to the authorities, but they will later sell us out at the polls. We screwed the pooch. We didn't pay attention. Life got in the way. We took our eyes off the ball. Now without some divine miracle I fear we may pay the price for our lack of attention to detail.

    As for stopping the shootings, that's a no brainer. Arm someone, teacher, security officer, resource officer (Whatever you want to call him), school nurse, Janitor! Just arm someone that will be capable of dealing with a shooter situation and has the skills to take down a perp or two.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,555 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    I represent that remark.

    In my defense, I hold back for as long as I can, to let someone else rebut the Democrat narrative talking points, but I just can't leave them laying out there, unchallenged.
    Actually, I wasn't thinking of you.  You at least seem to research what you say.  I'm talking about the "I heard" or "I think" or "It seems to me" statements that aren't necessarily based in fact, just hearsay and emotion.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,708 Senior Member
    orchidman said:
    Simple way to stop school shootings..............is to ban schools.
    If you want to stop students going berserk with guns............ban students.

    Put a politician in every corridor at every school. It may not stop school shootings ...........but at least we can get rid of a few useless people..........I dont think very many people would be upset if some got shot.

    Sound sensors in every school corridor and classroom that are linked to tear gas containers. As soon as they detect a gunshot, the tear gas dispenses. This would also help identify the active shooter cos he would be the one wearing a gas mask..........

    Subject every student to a psychiatric exam before they attend a class or enter school grounds. If they dont pass, make them become politicians...........

    Use the PA system to confuse possible shooters. Here is an example of how to do it...... Just change the words to include 'gun free zone'.............

    Pass a law to say that all school shootings must be carried out using a 270. We know they are a weak, non effective calibre and will result in non fatal school shootings and will limit injuries to just bruises and scratches.......

    I have a lot more ideas, but need to pack my gear cos its goat culling time.........

     


    I was going to say, have you ever been to an American High School or Jr. High on Pep Rally Day? We'd end up gassing the whole student body, because they make NOISE! High Decibel NOISE!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,390 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    Why is education a function of the government and state? Amend the state constitutions and dissolve the school systems. Place the onus on the parents for the education of their children. No schools, No school shootings.
    Surely you know why the public education system was created?


    Depends on where you start the story. I know about the Puritan establishment of schools so that children could read the Bible. I also know that the first Tax Payer funded school System was started in the South during the Reconstruction Era.

    But if folks think the 2a is outdated, then surely in this day and age Public Schools are too. The amount of information available to people is astounding. They don't need to attend school to learn things.

    Shane, I see your point, however, without structured learning important subject matter will be overlooked. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean everyone or even just a simple majority will find it.

    Structured education has its place. The problem is it depends on who has the handle on what that structure consists of. We as a citizenry failed to keep up with what was going on and let the left have their way with what they were teaching our kids. Now we have a situation akin to what happened in Nazi Germany before and during the war, with kids turning their parents over to the Nazi authorities for any infraction of the Nazi's brutal rules. No our kids arent selling us out to the authorities, but they will later sell us out at the polls. We screwed the pooch. We didn't pay attention. Life got in the way. We took our eyes off the ball. Now without some divine miracle I fear we may pay the price for our lack of attention to detail.

    As for stopping the shootings, that's a no brainer. Arm someone, teacher, security officer, resource officer (Whatever you want to call him), school nurse, Janitor! Just arm someone that will be capable of dealing with a shooter situation and has the skills to take down a perp or two.

    My suggestion was more in Gest and Satire than to be taken seriously. Advocates against the 2A say it is outdated and doesn't apply. I would tell them the basis of why we have public schools is outdated also. It also seems that more and more our public school system is failing to educate.

    I am 100% for schools. But, I believe we have lost our course in how, why, and what to educate the American Youth on. The proper education of the American Youth is just as important to National Security as a large standing volunteer army.



    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,598 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Speaking of 'less than lethal' methods, there IS a new 12 gauge round that shoots a self contained Taser round. . .

    Also like the dog angle. . .

    The ballistic shields and spears sounds good, too. 
    Taser 12 gauge. . .they quit making them - too much expense for both the round and the gun (a modified Mossberg as I recall) was tweaked so as to be incapable of loading a lethal round.  The accountants at whatever entity they were trying to sell to probably had strokes at the sight of the price tags.

    Dogs and spears. . .you DO understand that the current climate will get you suspended if you forget to take the micro-sized Swiss Army knife that's too small to skin a field mouse out of your pocket before coming to school, and that we've replaced concrete, gravel, and bark with rubber as a playground surface to prevent lawsuits from skinned knees?

    I'm with you, but we need a course in "Introduction to Reality 101" first.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
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