Artillery???

earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
Reading about two guys manning a 155mm gun at the Siegfried line. They bore sight a pillbox and watch the shell in flight by standing directly behind the gun when fired.

Can you see artillery shells in flight???
Im guessing sometimes yes sometimes no???

Comments

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,593 Senior Member
    Nothing mysterious about that at all.

    You can see .22 match bullets going out through your scope.

    You can see the disruption of air caused by a rifle bullet through a spotting scope.

    You can see reflection from a tac light off the base of a pistol bullet during a night shoot.

    Increase the diameter of the bullet to 5+ inches and stand directly behind the gun with a good idea of where it's supposed to go. . .why not?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
    What intrigued me about it was my perhaps wrong impressions of civil war artillery. Ive imagined it to be not so accurate and hard to aim, with fields completely obscured by bp smoke. Now Im thinking that depending on conditions, maybe gunners could watch the shells in flight and adjust aim.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,540 Senior Member
    Yes..you can see all manner of projectiles in flight...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,593 Senior Member
    edited April 7 #5
    What intrigued me about it was my perhaps wrong impressions of civil war artillery. Ive imagined it to be not so accurate and hard to aim, with fields completely obscured by bp smoke. Now Im thinking that depending on conditions, maybe gunners could watch the shells in flight and adjust aim.
    Confederate General Leonidas Polk was essentially sniped by a Union Parrot Rifle (light/medium artillery piece) under Sherman's orders.

    The Confederacy had Whitworth-rifled artillery pieces that could perform similar execution.

    It wasn't all bronze smoothbore Napoleons, and by that point in time, the ballistic technology was getting pretty sophisticated.  It was largely a muzzleloader war because (a.) they had a lot of them, (b.) they were still in the early stages of figuring out "cartridges" and (c.) the U.S. Ordnance commander General James Ripley was so resistant to the adoption of anything else, it wouldn't surprise me if someone unearths a document one day proving he was a Confederate secret agent.  

    What isn't really conveyed in the movie Gettysburg was that the Confederate failure to take Little Round Top at the south end of the battlefield at the end of Day Two allowed Union forces to park artillery pieces on that height that evening.  The next day, Pickett's Charge was not only walking into the teeth of Union fire, it was taking that artillery on the right as well - from over a mile away as I recall.  If you've ever been on that ground and looked it over, you really come away with a sense of WHAT THE HELL WAS LEE THINKING???

    And what Lee was at least in part thinking, was that his artillery led by Porter Aleander could dislodge Meade from Cemetery Ridge - and might well have, if not for a range miscalculation - - possibly due to an incorrect computation of uphill angle complicated by powder smoke obscuring the impacts in the target area.  By all reports, Alexander's fire was accurate, just long, and it blew the crap out of the Union rear, but left the guys up front with the guns largely unscathed to repel Pickett's troops. . . or more correctly,  to repel what was LEFT of Pickett's troops after the artillery got done with them.

    Guys like Alexander knew the math, and Civil War artillery was really just the pre-smokeless daddy of the WWI stuff.  The real challenge was in that they didn't have recoil absorbing mechanisms, so the ability to re-lay the gun in a hurry was sometimes compromised by whatever ground the gun was on and the stress of the situation.  Generally though, if they had the time, they could place the shot.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
    edited April 7 #6
    I didn't realize they had accurate rifled guns, especially Whitworths. One account I read of Alexander's barrage credited the failure to faulty ammunition which was a known problem in Confederate artillery. Another said it was the tail stocks digging in after repeated firing.

    What's interesting now is blasting through buildings for city fighting in WWII same as I read about in Hue 1968.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,334 Senior Member
    Prior to WW 2 or 1, they had marking rounds in naval guns in  colored smoke to range the guns.  But in fixed defenses, they'd almost certainly registered the guns at known distances.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,593 Senior Member
    I didn't realize they had accurate rifled guns, especially Whitworths. . . .

    There's a couple of 'em parked on, as I recall, the NE corner of the Gettysburg battlefield, marking the location of one of the early, first-day Confederate positions.  Long, skinny tubes on those.  I've got a great pic looking straight down what's about a 3-4 inch hexagonal bore - no mistaking it!  Tried to upload it for you, but apparently there's some incompatibility issues with the old flip-phone software it was shot with. 
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
    With those hexegonal bores, must have shipped with ammo like the rifles.

    Gene
    I guess colored smoke close by was a good reason to run fast for a hole.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,334 Senior Member
    If you were on a ship, no holes to run to.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,540 Senior Member
    edited April 7 #11
    During WWII most navies used dye bags to color the shell splashes. Each ship was assigned a specific color dye so when multiple ships were engaged there would be no confusion as to whose ranging shots were whose....
    For instance,  Iowa, New Jersey,Missouri and Wisconsin used Orange, Blue, Red and Green respectively...
    IJN Battle ships Kongo used red, Hiei used black, Kirishima used blue, Haruna didn't use dye...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
    I remember that now from Cane Mutiny with Humphrey Bogart.
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 1,610 Senior Member
    My dad served on turret two of the USS Missouri during the Korean War. He told me he used to go to the Engineering deck and you could watch the 16" shells in flight from there. Sometimes the driving bands would spin off in flight. 
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 22,621 Senior Member
    I got to shoot a M72 LAW at a shot up APC, really shot up TGT;
    watched the rocket all the way to the APC and it flew right through a big hole
    in the APC and exploded beyond the TGT.
    My new Signature
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,540 Senior Member
    NN said:
    I got to shoot a M72 LAW at a shot up APC, really shot up TGT;
    watched the rocket all the way to the APC and it flew right through a big hole
    in the APC and exploded beyond the TGT.
    If you elevate that tube to about 45degrees those rockets fly a long damn way...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 481 Member
    edited April 7 #16
    When I read about Hue, the book said the LAWs were too light for blowing through buildings so the Marines could stay off the streets well fighting. A Marine named Ernie Cheatham gave himself a crash course in street fighting with Marine field manuals. They gathered up the older model bazookas and 106 recoiless rifles. They used vehicles called Mules and literally used human strength to wrestle the big guns around to aim and fire. From what I read, those 106s unleashed extreme power on impact, levelling anything they hit.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,334 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    NN said:
    I got to shoot a M72 LAW at a shot up APC, really shot up TGT;
    watched the rocket all the way to the APC and it flew right through a big hole
    in the APC and exploded beyond the TGT.
    If you elevate that tube to about 45degrees those rockets fly a long damn way...
    Elevate it to 45 degrees and you'll be destroyed by the backblast.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,540 Senior Member
    All depends on where you're standing when you do it Gene....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,334 Senior Member
    If you're the shooter and unless you're on the brink of a canyon, it's going to be grim.  We carried these LAWs in Vietnam.  They weren't waterproof, and we had a lot of FTFs with them.  I don't know if they're still in service.  They were light and portable, but when I led Recon, on dry land, we didn't carry them.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 30,139 Senior Member
    I've fired a LAW before, knocked a good chunk of steel off a target tank on a range in Germany in the 70s..........I do remember we were told never to fire one without a mod called "With Cupola" or something like that. Some detonated when armed or fired on the shoulder or when launched before the fix. 

    They also had trainer LAWs that used a "Dart" propelled by a 7.62 blank that was supposed to simulated firing a real one.

    I don't think they use them much anymore, AT4 and others are used today. Still used around the world by some countries.

    https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=72

     

    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,540 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    If you're the shooter and unless you're on the brink of a canyon, it's going to be grim.  We carried these LAWs in Vietnam.  They weren't waterproof, and we had a lot of FTFs with them.  I don't know if they're still in service.  They were light and portable, but when I led Recon, on dry land, we didn't carry them.
    Platform on a berm....intended for firing Redeye missiles.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,010 Senior Member
    dont know about artillery, but when i was shooting my 22LR rifle and my friend was behind me and so was the sun, you could see the bullet in flight or the back end.  I called BS, but when he shot, i could too.



    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,918 Senior Member
    edited April 12 #23
    I've seen a video somewhere of a really intelligent towel-head standing right behind his buddy when he fires an RPG.  Maybe he was auditioning to replace Achmed in Jeff Dunham's show?
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 22,621 Senior Member
    ilove22s said:
    dont know about artillery, but when i was shooting my 22LR rifle and my friend was behind me and so was the sun, you could see the bullet in flight or the back end.  I called BS, but when he shot, i could too.




    under similar conditions you can see your own handgun bullets  fly to the tgt like a big pointer.
    My new Signature

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