Trump backed us out of the Iran nuclear deal

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  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,766 Senior Member
    It makes no difference that any of the money being withheld belonged to Iran. It was withheld to deny them the assets to use for waging their declared war against us and our allies. Had they denounced the path they embarked on when the Ayatollah Khomeini took over the legitimate government in 1979, they would have had a case. But, 40 years of a non-stop 'death to America' policy does not qualify.

    As for hurting the NK negotiations, that's rubbish. Trump is not pretending that NK has any legitimate standing in making his lunatic demands, as was the case in the Iran deal. Obama-Kerry went into the deal as beggars, with Iran thumbing their nose at them, throughout negotiations. In fact, the Ayatollas worked Kerry exactly as Trump is working Kim Jong Un, from a position of dominance.

    Democrats have never had the first clue about how to deal with our enemies, because they don't know how to solve anything that is not in support of their narratives, which are laughable to everyone...except the most ignorant of US voters. They care about winning elections and holding power...nothing else

    By the way, Pompeio just took off from somewhere in Korea, with the three men being held hostage by NK, so how does that fit in with the Democrat talking points?
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,389 Senior Member
    edited May 9 #33
    You realize we gave them zero cash right? All we did is unfreeze their own money. I'll let you in on a little secret. Our greatest power comes from our control of the global banking system. We can make a call and have any major bank seize or freeze the assets of any company or country. The supposed giant payment they got was just letting them have access back to their own money.
    Ironically pulling out of this deal and abusing that power threatens it. China and Russia among others really want out from under the thumb of the dollar hegemony and are actively making moves to reduce the power of the dolodo and develop alternative banking systems that don't depend on the west. Losing that power will remove a massive amount of the leverage we can wield I'm international negotiations. 

    You realize that deal was unconstitutional, because it was not ratified by Congress and any president could do what they want, right? And BTW can you explain WT* that word dolodo means, because in my less than Masters degree education I haven't the foggiest idea what that word is, and google didn't help.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 30,697 Senior Member
    edited May 9 #34
    Dems are sucking rotten eggs about now...........it ain't they didn't want the hostages released, but the fact it is the Trump Admin bringin them home..........must be killin them and many Tums and Alka Seltzers being used right now. 

    Oh wait....Obammy started the process  like they say about the boost in our economy......... **** BS animated emoticon   Crap animated emoticon
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,766 Senior Member
    The fact that Iran held the 300 or so American hostages until nearly the last minute of Jimmy Carter's presidency, and released them while Reagan was being sworn in taught Democrats nothing. Everyone else knew that the Muslim extremists despise weakness and have a visceral hatred for 'pretenders.'

    Democrats should study the Apache Wars, if they want to learn how negotiations are conducted with savages. Pay special attention to Al Sieber's  'ambassadorship.' History holds the answer to many of the problems of the future, folks.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,848 Senior Member
    You realize we gave them zero cash right? All we did is unfreeze their own money. I'll let you in on a little secret. Our greatest power comes from our control of the global banking system. We can make a call and have any major bank seize or freeze the assets of any company or country. The supposed giant payment they got was just letting them have access back to their own money.
    Ironically pulling out of this deal and abusing that power threatens it. China and Russia among others really want out from under the thumb of the dollar hegemony and are actively making moves to reduce the power of the dolodo and develop alternative banking systems that don't depend on the west. Losing that power will remove a massive amount of the leverage we can wield I'm international negotiations. 

    You realize that deal was unconstitutional, because it was not ratified by Congress and any president could do what they want, right? And BTW can you explain WT* that word dolodo means, because in my less than Masters degree education I haven't the foggiest idea what that word is, and google didn't help.
    Dollar, wierd typo because trying to use this new version of the site on mobile fracking sucks!!!!
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • roadkingroadking Senior Member Posts: 3,056 Senior Member
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  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,835 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Dems are sucking rotten eggs about now...........it ain't they didn't want the hostages released, but the fact it is the Trump Admin bringin them home..........must be killin them and many Tums and Alka Seltzers being used right now. 

    Oh wait....Obammy started the process  like they say about the boost in our economy......... **** BS animated emoticon   Crap animated emoticon
    Well said Chief!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,835 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    The reason France, Germany and Britain wanted to keep the deal they admit is 'Not Perfect' is because of lucrative business deals they made with Iran. Deep in their hearts they know it was a bad deal and nobody can trust Iran without verification and access to all their sites.

    Come on man, a 30 day warning beforehand and letting them do 'Self Inspections'..............get real.

    The deceitful Obammy Admin devised it like the AHCA /Obammycare with hidden surprises that weren't known about and may aspects were secret and downright lies. Devious they way they did things. Even the two-faced congressmen who are denouncing what Trump did were against the deal like Chucky, and said they wouldn't have voted for it.

    Then Obammy and Fast Boat John bypassed congress and cut his own deal because they knew it would never get passed. It wasn't a Treaty, but a deal made by Obammy who sucked in the Europeans to make it difficult to extract ourselves from after he left office.

    It just kicked the can down the road and at the same time allowed Iran to keep developing advanced ballistic missile systems when all they would need is to plug in the nuclear payload after the timeline expires.............and being the deceitful bastards they are most likely doing it clandestinely (working on nuclear materials) the whole time anyway.




     


    Chucky's a Jew and No Way, I believe he's in love with Iran or any other people that are fanatically Muslim. But he's willing to put that all on the table for his sacred Dummycrat Party, to get them back in power and keep them there. To me, in my humble opinion, Mr. Chucky is a despicable hypocrite!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,389 Senior Member
    Dollar, wierd typo because trying to use this new version of the site on mobile fracking sucks!!!!
    LOL, I was leaning that way, based on the rest of the sentence, but it was so far off "dollar" that I just figured it was a real word I'd never heard of.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,835 Senior Member
    edited May 9 #41
    Alpha brings up a good point.  This is all about the NK deal.  Trump just showed the NKs that if they violate the deal, the deal will be off.

    ...and this morning, three more US detainees in the NK were released and sent home.

    there is no loss in pulling out of the Iran deal. Iran was never going to play along and follow the deal. BUT... we used it to keep the Norks in line
     I personally don't believe Trump thinks like that, what he can get out of this if he does that. I think he does everything for what good it in itself will do for the stated purpose he does it. He takes one thing at a time. But it's like lining up dominoes, when something is the right thing to do, they will all start to fall if you push em over right.

    Trump did it for what it appears to be, he did it for the good of the country and the world. Any other good that comes from it is gravy. To me, that's the beauty of Trump. The man don't play.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 656 Senior Member
    The argument contained here in favor of the pull out is compelling and for sure pulls me personally in that direction.

    The Christian Science Monitor ran a piece some time ago, complete with listed scources detailing how the Reagan compaign committed treason by negotiating a delayed release of the hostages until after the election. Well the content of that article can certainly be disputed, so can the notion that foriegn powers and religions have a partisan bias. I can just as easily speculate that only the spin hungry American public can be prone to such bias.

    I'm willing to embrace good policy if the evidence is suggestive of such, but I'm not likely to entertain the idea of partisan saviors.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,428 Senior Member

    The KSA is on record now for saying if Iran develops Nukes, then they will too.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 2,957 Senior Member
    First of all, Alpha, You are essentially correct that the money technically was Iran's (with various arguments pro and con), but the manner in which it was paid makes no sense today. When "Frozen" assets are unfrozen, the banks of Iran now have total access to their money. They can wire transfer any amount at any time. The "Cash" delivery was not intended to be used by the "Country" of Iran. This money went directly to the organizations and leaders who are pro-terror, anti-Israel, and the people of Iran benefitted not one iota from the transfer. It was "Payola." THIS is why liberals - yourself included - are so dangerous. There are no critical thinking skills used in the development of progressive theory. It's all based on what one "thinks" might happen, and not on what everyone "knows" will happen. It's all based on "Wouldn't it be nice," and none of it based on "Boy, that was stupid."

    Oh, and the Israelis with the intel coup destroyed your argument before you made it. I wonder why you ignore that?

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,848 Senior Member

    The KSA is on record now for saying if Iran develops Nukes, then they will too.

    You realize how huge a disaster that would be right? Once that flame is lit it's not going out, and it's going to take ~15% of global oil production with it, likely permanently. We're talking oil prices of at least $200-300/bbl until the ensuing global depression wipes out enough demand to compensate. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,617 Senior Member
    You realize we gave them zero cash right? All we did is unfreeze their own money.

    OK. . .let's look at that:

    We give them our money and they use it buy a knife.

    We allow them access to their own money and they use it to buy a knife.

    I'd really like to get my forensic accountant on the line to figure out who's money it actually was, but I'm a little preoccupied at the moment with this sudden pain between my shoulder blades. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,766 Senior Member

    The KSA is on record now for saying if Iran develops Nukes, then they will too.

    You realize how huge a disaster that would be right? Once that flame is lit it's not going out, and it's going to take ~15% of global oil production with it, likely permanently. We're talking oil prices of at least $200-300/bbl until the ensuing global depression wipes out enough demand to compensate. 
    The Communists, back in the good old days, dreamed of a global depression, believing that their 'scarcity management' skills would be more appreciated, and so that the capitalist world would suffer the same crushing poverty that was the permanent way of life for their proletariat. But, lo and behold, capitalism has continued to thrive, whenever it is not interfered with, too much, and probably will continue to do so. If not, it will be corrected in ten years, as it did in the Great Depression.

    Meanwhile, we have more oil and gas than Saudi Arabia, and the technology skills to find more and recover it from more difficult locales. Barring the mass insanity that might elect back-to-back left-wing politicians to a majority in Congress, or in the presidency, we will likely bumble along just fine, doing what human beings do naturally, when not strangled by government incompetence.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 2,957 Senior Member
    There is nothing a liberal can't touch that won't turn to crap.

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,848 Senior Member
    edited May 10 #49
    bisley said:

    The KSA is on record now for saying if Iran develops Nukes, then they will too.

    You realize how huge a disaster that would be right? Once that flame is lit it's not going out, and it's going to take ~15% of global oil production with it, likely permanently. We're talking oil prices of at least $200-300/bbl until the ensuing global depression wipes out enough demand to compensate. 
    The Communists, back in the good old days, dreamed of a global depression, believing that their 'scarcity management' skills would be more appreciated, and so that the capitalist world would suffer the same crushing poverty that was the permanent way of life for their proletariat. But, lo and behold, capitalism has continued to thrive, whenever it is not interfered with, too much, and probably will continue to do so. If not, it will be corrected in ten years, as it did in the Great Depression.

    Meanwhile, we have more oil and gas than Saudi Arabia, and the technology skills to find more and recover it from more difficult locales. Barring the mass insanity that might elect back-to-back left-wing politicians to a majority in Congress, or in the presidency, we will likely bumble along just fine, doing what human beings do naturally, when not strangled by government incompetence.
    I mean the nation survived the great depression, doesn't mean we want to bumble our way back into another one. Yes we currently are producing a lot of oil from some new plays with new technology, but we still net import almost 40% of our oil. One thing the propaganda flowing through Texas won't tell you is that we don't have the refineries to refine all the oil coming from those plays because it's not the right kind of oil, so instead we're exporting most of it and importing other heavier oil from overseas (our total imports are closer to 50% of demand). Note, if the big oil companies really thought these new plays were going to bring us energy independence rather than being a short term boost, they would be investing in upgrading and modifying their refining capacity. US oil (WTI) trades at a significant discount to globally traded oil (Brent) so there is a big profit motive if these plays are really going to last the many decades the boosters tout. The fact that they are unwilling to make long term investments that should be wildly profitable assuming the cornucopians are correct indicates a high degree of skepticism by those who know the most.

    Regarding adjusting, the problem with oil demand is it's highly inelastic. $150 oil and a massive global recession only temporarily reduced demand by about 2 million barrels a day. SA and Iran represent 25% of the oil that is traded on global markets at over 10 million barrels a day. In order to "destroy" that much demand will require massive reductions in economic activity. You lived through the 70's, you experienced gas lines etc. That will be a walk in the park compared to what will happen if Iran and SA go at it. This is an outcome that should be avoided at almost any cost. At least from an economic perspective, it could be worse than even an Iranian nuke detonating in Manhattan.

    Another thing to keep in mind that any of this plays directly into Russia's hand. They are the one country that would benefit the most from a war between Iran and SA.  It would bog down us, crush our economy, hurt China, and boost their economy by double digits since they are one of the biggest exporters of oil so their revenues would soar with the high prices and having two of their biggest competitors taken off line.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,104 Senior Member
    ...and yesterday as soon as the cancellation of the deal was announced Iran showed a "muscle flexing" by launching rockets against Israeli targets.
    This both worked for the Ayathollas as a message to everyone involved and to both test the "Iron Shield" defensive system capabilities (Apparently quite a few of the rockets were successfully intercepted and destroyed) and to evaluate Israel's reaction (They immediately retaliated against Iranian positions in Syria), which the U.S. immediately backed.

    Europe is mad about leaving the deal because it would mean the end of lots of potential commercial deals with Iran, the increased risk of getting any backwash from any conflict due to their closeness to the region (Even more refugees, oil prices increase, etc.) and being seen not as holders of their word but useful fools who keep deals with terrorist states in spite of everything just to avoid taking action. Problem #2 is that potentially any of such consequences puts their center and left-wing politicians on risk in front of the voters, and might cost them their beloved power share and jobs (What they really only care about).

    Local talking heads are bashing Trump about this; no wonder since most of them only translate and repeat what CNN and the left U.S. media blabbers, and that's pretty much trying to keep their beloved Obama as the "peace hero" they claim he is.


  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 656 Senior Member
    From what I've read about the world between 1930 and 1950 a great depression and self correction isn't something I'd be looking forward to at all.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,046 Senior Member
    I'm fairly certain that the US can withstand higher energy costs as well or better than the middle East and Russia can withstand food scarcity.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 30,697 Senior Member

    The KSA is on record now for saying if Iran develops Nukes, then they will too.

    As we used to say in the Pershing Missile field.......'Everybody Likes A Little Nukey'
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,976 Senior Member
    If Israel takes the lead in a serious effort against Iran, we will at least provide logistical and technical support, if not actual combat troops.  Turning a bunch of PO'ed Israelis loose to do what they do best, kick butt and take names, has historically been bad juju for anyone opposing them.  They're not afraid of world opinion, which has never been on their side anyway.  Dead enemies don't shoot back, or lick their wounds for awhile and counterattack.  That's something we have seemingly forgotten since 1945.   
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 30,697 Senior Member
    I don't trust any of them Jabber Jabber Islamics............especially the Iranians.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,976 Senior Member
    It's time to play "Cowboys and Muslims"- - - - -"The only good Iranian is a dead Iranian!"
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,674 Senior Member
    Teach said:
    If Israel takes the lead in a serious effort against Iran, we will at least provide logistical and technical support, if not actual combat troops.  Turning a bunch of PO'ed Israelis loose to do what they do best, kick butt and take names, has historically been bad juju for anyone opposing them.  They're not afraid of world opinion, which has never been on their side anyway.  Dead enemies don't shoot back, or lick their wounds for awhile and counterattack.  That's something we have seemingly forgotten since 1945.   
    Yep, yep, and yeppers!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • Squawk BoxSquawk Box New Member Posts: 46 Member
    Trump is smarter than Obama, and he knows a bad deal when he sees one. That deal was one of the worst that America has ever made. 
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,976 Senior Member
    What kind of fool negotiates with a rattlesnake, a scorpion, a black widow spider, or any other deadly vermin?  Swat, stomp, shoot, or otherwise make sure the things assume room temperature!
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,766 Senior Member
    Nice essay, Alf, but like I said, I've been reading some variation of this narrative for decades. The lefties mix and match the ingredients of the basic theory, to keep it current, but it's all basically a different version of "the sky is falling!" I classify it the same as the climate change narrative - a hare-brained theory patched together with a few anecdotal facts that can jump from global cooling to global warming at the drop of a hat, and with great dexterity. When the 'peak oil' admonitions failed to produce the necessary level of fear, there was another well-tweaked theory sitting on the shelf, ready to go.

    The bottom line for me is that lefties build their foundations for predicting the future on a consensus of theory that they have decided to believe, whereas the righties keep using the same old basic tenets of capitalism - produce and adapt. Neither is always right or always wrong, but less people starve under capitalism. When you strip it all out to the basics, it is about socialism versus capitalism, or carried out to its logical extension (in my opinon, of course), Utopia vs. Reality.

    In my feeble little brain, the options are to bet the ranch on what a consensus of politically motivated intellectuals theorize, or you can try something that has actually worked, and see if it will work again. My strongest education comes from history, whereas your much higher level of formal education comes from scientific theory. It really is a great thing to have the kind of knowledge that produces ideas, as long as you remember that half (or more) of the many very brilliant ideas just don't work. It takes time to root out the unexpected consequences, and the evidence has to be evaluated honestly, not along political lines. I suggest that when in doubt about the science, pay a little bit of attention to theoretical physicists, who are the least political in the scientific world, and much smarter than the 'also-rans' who confuse theory with fact.





  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,848 Senior Member



    bisley said:
     When you strip it all out to the basics, it is about socialism versus capitalism,

     It takes time to root out the unexpected consequences, and the evidence has to be evaluated honestly, not along political lines.

    As for the first statement, it's really not. Not this conversation, not most things. I get that that's the lens (back to those lenses again) that you see everything through, but it's a very, very narrow view. I mean I can't say it's surprising given that you came of age in the heart of the cold war and the existential threat was communism/nuclear war with the USSR, but it's really not a super useful lens for looking at most things these days.

    Your second point is a good one and applies especially to this thread. This is something I rarely see out of republicans. I get that I am also tainted by history, watching Bush lie us into the quagmire Iraq and then lie about the costs. That happened while I was an undergrad and I actually wrote an essay that predicted almost exactly how big a mess it would be before the first bomb was even dropped. In almost every case the unexpected consequences can be seen and predicted, you just have to take the time to think and look.

    I see in many republicans a level of idiotic machismo and unchecked testosterone that leads to shooting first and asking questions later. Occasionally that works out fine or is even what we need. Other times it leads to wasting trillions of dollars and thousands of lives. And it's possible for the costs to be much much higher. I expect that this post will get met with at least a handful of Nevel Chamberlain references by some of the most macho among us. Bring them on. But I also ask you to think. We live in a global world that is highly connected. Consequences can cascade. Little ripples can become big cascades. If you do nothing else, do a google map search of Ras Tanura, look at the satellite view, then look at it's location in relation to Iran, and then realize that ~10-15% of globally traded oil flows through that one point and then you can explain to me how the risks to war with Iran are small.

    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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