Remington 870 DM Magpul 12 ga

earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 948 Senior Member
Featured article in this months G&A

I absolutely can not see any advantage whatsoever of a detachable box magazine over attached tube on a slide action. Except for maybe keeping the shells together well carried.

I like the stock, the muzzle, the sights, and the rail.

An attached tube can be topped off or reloaded on the run or during a hunt just as fast as a DM. The DM is great idea on an auto loader, its a novely on a pump.

Even if different loads are sorted by seperate mags, who's to say a stressed hand grabs the right one.

Am I wrong?
Have I missed the point?
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Replies

  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 2,990 Senior Member
    It doesn't appeal to me. 
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    I think it is another one of those answers in search of a problem.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,267 Senior Member
    Make it a belt fed semi auto and I'd be all over it. A mag fed pump just doesn't do it for me.
    Non Sibi Sed Patriage (Not for self, but country)



  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 5,220 Senior Member
    Take one of the most successful pump shotguns in history and muck it up. Way to go Remington.🙄
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,636 Senior Member
    I THINK - but don't actually KNOW - that the sales pitch behind this is that a lot of people simply can't seem to grasp the notion of tubular magazines; how to load them, how to reload them, how they feed, how they WORK.  A lot of folks don't know anything besides detachable box pistols and rifles, and a gun that runs any other way is totally alien to them.

    Put me firmly in the "This is REALLY STUPID" camp.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,114 Senior Member
    I own several 870's and love them and happened to have bought that very model just last week. I got it for HD around the ranch as the Magpul forearm lends itself to rails and gizmos.(and it will likely increase in value) I don't want to start a debate but anyone who thinks that they can stuff six individual shells into a shotgun faster than inserting one magazine is dilusional.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,185 Senior Member
    Kills the ergonomics. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 948 Senior Member
    I own several 870's and love them and happened to have bought that very model just last week. I got it for HD around the ranch as the Magpul forearm lends itself to rails and gizmos.(and it will likely increase in value) I don't want to start a debate but anyone who thinks that they can stuff six individual shells into a shotgun faster than inserting one magazine is dilusional.
    I thought the stock was a home run. Likely no one could do a complete reload as fast with a tube. Running six rounds through a 12 ga and needing six more fast like say a mag dump/reload on an AR is hard for me to imagine. Topping off under cover seems more likely to me.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,185 Senior Member
    Here is my only justification. 

    Why the Hell not?!?

    Seriously, innovation and the will to try something new are the beauty of the firearms industry. May not make sense to all. But, at least folks are trying. 

    For that, I applaud their wayward endeavors. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 8,551 Senior Member
    There...... that's better


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    My guess is that the once in a while gun handler will find unloading it much simpler and the motions as unloading most modern handguns.
    Drop magazine work action and check chamber once and gun is empty.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,368 Senior Member
    “They ruined a classic! I remember by gawd when they was blue steel and wood!”
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 5,733 Senior Member
    edited June 6 #14
    I don't hate it.  Certainly don't love it, either.  Put me down for a "meh".  I can see the attraction, but the utility is (imo) going to be limited.  Frankly, it just doesn't look right to me. 

    I think it could be a hit with the tacticool crowd... maybe that's what they're going for? 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,192 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Here is my only justification. 

    Why the Hell not?!?

    Seriously, innovation and the will to try something new are the beauty of the firearms industry. May not make sense to all. But, at least folks are trying. 

    For that, I applaud their wayward endeavors. 
    I agree.  It's not something I will buy, but there are people who will.  A lot of them will buy it because it's 'cool'. We need more shooters and gun owners on our side- and buying 'cool' guns brings more over.

    Don't be a Fudd.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,114 Senior Member
    For my use, the appeal is being able to change loads quickly and easily. Depending on what's going on outside at the ranch, I can swap from birdshot, to buckshot, or to slugs with just a mag change.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,150 Senior Member
    Heck, remember the Street Sweepers .........................





    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,150 Senior Member
    'Destructive Device'..........to the shooter it looks like..........no more damage than any other shotgun............just more shells to shoot.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,267 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Heck, remember the Street Sweepers .........................






    Big Chief said:
    'Destructive Device'..........to the shooter it looks like..........no more damage than any other shotgun............just more shells to shoot.
    I remember the Stryker Street Sweeper shotgun, and saw more than a few before the ban made them verboten with that destructive device classification. There were about a dozen sold by a gun shop in my area.

    Actually, revolving cylinder shotguns aren't anything new. They've been made since the cap and ball era, and some were better than others, especially with dealing with that cylinder gap thing. Taurus Circuit Judge .410 is the latest iteration of that design.

    Fishhead's logic on using one on the farm does make sense. Drop the magazine, clear the chamber, and put in a magazine with the right shot for what's at hand. They DO serve a purpose for that sort of thing.
    Non Sibi Sed Patriage (Not for self, but country)



  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,150 Senior Member
    I have heard of folks using a double or O/U with a few extra slugs or Buck in their off hand between their fingers if what they had loaded didn't do the trick or as a reload.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    I haven't priced them, but I guess if it is less expensive than a mag fed semi-auto there would be a niche for it.  For me, I already have a mag fed semi-auto, so there would be no point.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,636 Senior Member
    For my use, the appeal is being able to change loads quickly and easily. Depending on what's going on outside at the ranch, I can swap from birdshot, to buckshot, or to slugs with just a mag change.
    Standard, unmodified 870 procedure:

    1. Open action briskly to eject the unwanted round type from the chamber.
    2. Rotate the action toward 3:00 to dump out the second round of unwanted type that just fed to the carrier.
    3. Toss a desired type round into the ejection port and close the action.
    4. Stuff however many more you want or can fit into the magazine

    Rapidly done from a side saddle with no need to juggle huge magazines.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,185 Senior Member
    The bulk of the magazines is assuredly disconcerting. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,599 Senior Member
    Bigslug i normally agree with you and you are spot on here, but no way is that as fast as grabbing a nagazine as one walks out the door to dispatch a snake or opossum in the chicken coup or a different magazine because of a two legged varmint stealing a horse.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,901 Senior Member
    I've been on a few dove hunts where the action was non-stop for an hour. That means reload on the fly, as you are walking to each downed bird, maybe one round, or maybe two or three. It is a very natural thing that I do automatically. So, I'm not interested much in box magazines. Besides, I grew up on tube fed .22's and shotguns, and they just 'look right' to me.

    But, sure, build whatever people will buy, and stay in business. Half of the stuff that gun manufacturers push are just something new with a lot of advertising hype, anyway, and I do buy some of it, occasionally.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,114 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Fisheadgib said:mm
    For my use, the appeal is being able to change loads quickly and easily. Depending on what's going on outside at the ranch, I can swap from birdshot, to buckshot, or to slugs with just a mag change.
    Standard, unmodified 870 procedure:

    1. Open action briskly to eject the unwanted round type from the chamber.
    2. Rotate the action toward 3:00 to dump out the second round of unwanted type that just fed to the carrier.
    3. Toss a desired type round into the ejection port and close the action.
    4. Stuff however many more you want or can fit into the magazine

    Rapidly done from a side saddle with no need to juggle huge magazines.
    I can't thank you enough for that tutorial, now the three 870's in my safe can serve a purpose again.
    No matter how you try to explain it, hitting one lever and removing one magazine and inserting another is faster and easier than pumping, tilting, shaking the round out, and stuffing a couple of rounds back in. Add a little tension like hearing comotion out in the pasture or hearing the chickens go nuts at three in the morning, and the simplicity of stuffing six rounds into it with one movement is even more appealing.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,636 Senior Member
    I'll disagree with you on the speed and convenience issue.  Yes, my method is something you have to practice, but magazines are something you have to find, find space for, juggle in switching out, and ideally retain.  I'll add the pointer that "shaking" the second round out of the receiver usually only complicates the issue.  The drill is done with the shotgun pretty much still in your shoulder or under an armpit, the barrel leveled towards the target, and the "disposal" is done by simply rolling the shotgun over on its side.

    If that's too much dexterity for you, you can simply stuff one more round in the magazine from your side saddle (or wherever) and cycle the action.  Since most of us leave the chamber empty for HD purposes, and will probably cycle one in from the mag as soon as we pick the gun up, we'll automatically have room for that "other" round if we determine the first type is not what we need.

    No question that I'm old fashioned on a lot of stuff, and oddly, seem to be going DEEPER into the past with a lot of my firearm preferences as time goes on.  I prefer the M1 enbloc or Mauser-style stripper clip method of reloading a rifle to DM's because, frankly, it's quicker and takes up less space.  One of the HUGE advantages of the "old" pump action combat shotgun as we know it is the above special loadings or simply topping off can be done without either temporarily disabling the weapon (action open) or turning it into a single shot (DM removed).  To respond to the argument of a one lump reload versus stuffing individual rounds:  (1.) depending on your system, you started with between four and nine rounds of 00 buck - there shouldn't be anything left alive within 20 yards of you by the time that's gone;  (2.) the tube mag system can negate one threat with one or two rounds, and remain a perfectly functional 2 to 7 round system while additional rounds can be added.  The DM system is no better than a one-shot break-open or falling block with the magazine removed to perform a tactical reload with a fresh mag.  In one critical way, it's worse:  with the magazine removed, you cannot perform the "combat load"  process on an empty gun by throwing a round in through the open ejection port - that round is going to fall straight out the bottom of the mag well.

    I suppose these DM pump guns have one possible advantage for the less experienced in that they are more intuitive to unload, but as there is no limit to the ways a thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters can screw things up, this is a matter of reducing negligent discharges, not eliminating them totally.   The stupid will find a way.

    If the gun solves a specific problem for you, great.  To me, it seems like a tool for the folks who bought an AR-15 during the recent craze, want a shotgun, and aren't willing to study a new system.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,150 Senior Member
    edited June 7 #29
    I say wherever works for YOU,  and gives you confidence you are prepared and ready, willing and able to confront any situation you are likely to encounter.

    I personally think they take the esthetics away from the traditional lines of a shotgun, but when your sweet ass may be on the line who cares about looks of the gun.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 1,998 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    “They ruined a classic! I remember by gawd when they was blue steel and wood!”

    And those steel & wood Wingmasters had machined steel parts. You can get 10 rd. tube extensions...what's the point....instead of just making them clumsy and awkward IMO anyway.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 948 Senior Member
    edited June 7 #31
    Bigslug said:
     (1.) depending on your system, you started with between four and nine rounds of 00 buck - there shouldn't be anything left alive within 20 yards of you by the time that's gone;  

    This is an awful lot of faith in all hits being center mass as well as the effectiveness of 00 buckshot. Possibly, just maybe, a tad too much faith?
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