Republicans are blowing it.

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Comments

  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,278 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    If you're going to quote that book you claim you don't believe in, at least be accurate. "The love of money is the root of all evil". Nothing wrong with money- - - -it's a necessary part of life. Greed and avarice, however, turn a necessity into a tool of the corrupt, greedy, or just downright evil!
    Jerry
    That is how I remembered it. I looked it up to be certain. 1 Timothy 6:10 King James Version
    "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows". Blaming evil on money is similar to saying guns kill people. My personal opinion is that money=power backed up by the saying: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,875 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Both sides want single payer, if you force them to tell the truth. And if THAT happens, the corruption, graft, and outright theft will make Medicare and Medicaid fraud look like small time penny ante stuff.

    THIS!!!
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    The government can't pay for single payer so you taxpayers will have to pay. get ready for your taxes to go way up, at least double.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,670 Senior Member
    Yippee. This is what I was hoping for, but thought it was never going to happen with Mitch in charge. This is practically total capitulation on his part, and a huge win for Rand Paul and conservatives...if it really happens. Hopefully, the two year delay for it to go into effect can be negotiated down to one, but even so, it's better than Obamacare Lite. Simply removing the mandates may be enough to stimulate competition among insurers that will solve many of the problems without legislation.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/18/trump-to-republicans-lets-repeal-obamacare.html
    Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., acknowledged the roadblock and, like Trump, said he plans a repeal vote. McConnell also mentioned a two-year delay for a substitute.

    "Regretfully, it's now apparent that the effort to repeal and immediately replace the failure of Obamacare will not be successful," McConnell said in a statement. "So, in the coming days, the Senate will vote to take up the House bill with the first amendment in order being what a majority of the Senate has already supported in 2015 and that was vetoed by then-President Obama: a repeal of Obamacare with a two-year delay to provide for a stable transition period to a patient-centered health care system that gives Americans access to quality, affordable care."

    x
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,918 Senior Member
    Now, let's hope they also get around to scrapping the stupid 60-vote threshold for getting anything through the Senate in favor of a simple majority. Then all we need to do is give a few RINO senators their walking papers in 2018 and replace them with real conservatives who don't have a bunch of lobbyists' bribes lining their pockets.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 9,670 Senior Member
    Yep. They can repeal funding for Obamacare, but they can't repeal the mandates without 60 votes, so to undo the damage it has caused, they have to change that rule back to the way it was intended to be. That would be great, unless the Dems win both houses of Congress. But, nothing can be accomplished with the 60 vote rule, as long as the socialists dominate the Democrat Party. That rule guarantees gridlock, which guarantees lazy-ass Congressmen who don't even try to pass anything.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,553 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    The government can't pay for single payer so you taxpayers will have to pay. get ready for your taxes to go way up, at least double.
    One way or another, taxpayers pay for everything the government does. Either now or later.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,792 Senior Member
    One way or another, taxpayers pay for everything the government does. Either now or later.
    20% of our economy is the healthcare industry. Someone has to pay for it. You either pay in taxes or you pay in insurance plus out of pocket costs.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,553 Senior Member
    20% of our economy is the healthcare industry. Someone has to pay for it. You either pay in taxes or you pay in insurance plus out of pocket costs.
    Not arguing that, just pointing out that pretty much all government money comes from taxpayers, one way or the other....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,792 Senior Member
    Not arguing that, just pointing out that pretty much all government money comes from taxpayers, one way or the other....
    Yes, it was more meant as a critique of the anti single payer arguments. Yes single payer means higher taxes, but it also means not paying for health insurance. That's a huge burden off people and more importantly businesses. Pretty much every other developed nation has run the calculation and determined that it's cheaper and more efficient overall for the government to run things at least in terms of paying the bills. Here people care less about cost and efficiency than they do about freedom and individuality. That is a value judgement and I'm not even saying it's wrong. If you're in the top 10% our system is almost certainly better. If you're not, well tough luck, you should work harder so you can be richer so you can be better off.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,690 Senior Member
    Yes, it was more meant as a critique of the anti single payer arguments. Yes single payer means higher taxes, but it also means not paying for health insurance. That's a huge burden off people and more importantly businesses. Pretty much every other developed nation has run the calculation and determined that it's cheaper and more efficient overall for the government to run things at least in terms of paying the bills. Here people care less about cost and efficiency than they do about freedom and individuality. That is a value judgement and I'm not even saying it's wrong. If you're in the top 10% our system is almost certainly better. If you're not, well tough luck, you should work harder so you can be richer so you can be better off.
    Only problem is (was, until our savior BHO ed it up) we have (had) a choice as to whether or or not we purchased insurance. Single payer means you're forced. Basically like now and your tax penalty for not having insurance.
    No matter what, we are all ed right up the ass. The haves pay for the have nots.
    And more efficient for the government to run health care? Ever dealt with, or had family members who dealt with the VA?
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,367 Senior Member
    The biggest problem - as I see it - are completely out of control healthcare costs. Doctors make entirely too much money, DME companies are almost printing it themselves, and don't get me started on Big Pharma.

    And people want the Gov't to SUBSIDIZE this?

    I don't think so!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,792 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Only problem is (was, until our savior BHO ed it up) we have (had) a choice as to whether or or not we purchased insurance. Single payer means you're forced. Basically like now and your tax penalty for not having insurance.
    No matter what, we are all ed right up the ass. The haves pay for the have nots.
    And more efficient for the government to run health care? Ever dealt with, or had family members who dealt with the VA?

    I have parents on Medicare. It paid for my dad's bypass surgery this spring. He's not dead and he's not broke. He seems fairly happy with it. The problem with the VA isn't that the government pays, it's that it runs all the facilities. It's single payer, not single owner/operator. And for the record, just like how medicare works, I support a system where basic care is paid for but that individuals have the ability to purchase supplementary insurance to pay for the other stuff they might want or need.

    One final note, those that don't have insurance still get to use hospital emergency rooms. One of the biggest problems pre-obamacare is people not having insurance and using the emergency room for all their care. It was grossly inefficient, but the hospitals had to provide care, and the people didn't ever end up having to pay. Sure they got sent bills, but there was no way to make them pay, ever. Sure, people still do that crap, but at least it's less and at least they have to pay a tax that helps reimburse hospitals for their care.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    As I listen to the news coverage of this I keep picturing the animated donkey at the introduction of the old Hee Haw tv show.

    Hee Haw!
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,690 Senior Member
    I have parents on Medicare. It paid for my dad's bypass surgery this spring. He's not dead and he's not broke. He seems fairly happy with it. The problem with the VA isn't that the government pays, it's that it runs all the facilities. It's single payer, not single owner/operator. And for the record, just like how medicare works, I support a system where basic care is paid for but that individuals have the ability to purchase supplementary insurance to pay for the other stuff they might want or need.

    One final note, those that don't have insurance still get to use hospital emergency rooms. One of the biggest problems pre-obamacare is people not having insurance and using the emergency room for all their care. It was grossly inefficient, but the hospitals had to provide care, and the people didn't ever end up having to pay. Sure they got sent bills, but there was no way to make them pay, ever. Sure, people still do that crap, but at least it's less and at least they have to pay a tax that helps reimburse hospitals for their care.
    Ask a doctor how extremely efficient getting paid by Medicare can be. Guessing you won't find many fans. Increase the number of patients care who is paid for by the government by many many times, you'll see a cluster of EPIC proportions.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,690 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    The biggest problem - as I see it - are completely out of control healthcare costs. Doctors make entirely too much money, DME companies are almost printing it themselves, and don't get me started on Big Pharma.

    And people want the Gov't to SUBSIDIZE this?

    I don't think so!
    Again I'll ask...how much should a Dr be paid?
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,367 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Again I'll ask...how much should a Dr be paid?

    Let's put it another way: Why does it cost me $100/visit to see the Doc? Yea, a lot of it could be assuaged by tort reform, and reduced a lot more by DME, Big Pharma, etc, etc being reigned in. But that Doc drives a brand new AMG Mercedes and lives in a huge house on the good side of town, which tells me he's making plenty!

    Fine - what the market will bear and all that. BUT - if the medical field were ever investigated for Trust violations...

    Do the math - it isn't just my Doc that charges $100/visit - its every Doc in town. They're all in collusion.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,918 Senior Member
    You've always got the option of not going to the doc- - - -that way he doesn't get a chance to overcharge you. That problem has a distinct potential for solving itself permanently, also, and there will be one less future drain on the social security system that pays us old geezers. When Social Security was first implemented, the average life expectancy for recipients was well BELOW the age when SS was supposed to start paying benefits!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 36,690 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Let's put it another way: Why does it cost me $100/visit to see the Doc? Yea, a lot of it could be assuaged by tort reform, and reduced a lot more by DME, Big Pharma, etc, etc being reigned in. But that Doc drives a brand new AMG Mercedes and lives in a huge house on the good side of town, which tells me he's making plenty!

    Fine - what the market will bear and all that. BUT - if the medical field were ever investigated for Trust violations...

    Do the math - it isn't just my Doc that charges $100/visit - its every Doc in town. They're all in collusion.
    $100 to pay all the staff, the light bill, phone bill, insurance, etc, and pay his salary. After spending a couple hundred grand on school, and not having a life till around age 30.
    If you think Doctors are bad, you'd pay me $295 dollars minimum to service your alarm or sprinkler system. After hours, it's $600 for me to show up and smile.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 451 Member
    IMHO,each of us should be writing, calling,emailing republican senators urging them to resign if they can't get the job done. We elected them to get results. They are setting up the GOP for political suicide.
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,358 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    $100 to pay all the staff, the light bill, phone bill, insurance, etc, and pay his salary. After spending a couple hundred grand on school, and not having a life till around age 30.
    If you think Doctors are bad, you'd pay me $295 dollars minimum to service your alarm or sprinkler system. After hours, it's $600 for me to show up and smile.

    Thank you.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,367 Senior Member
    Ah, but at five minutes per, he's raking in $1,200/hr. He's got PLENTY after paying the bills. Gov't doesn't need to be subsidizing this.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,761 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Ah, but at five minutes per, he's raking in $1,200/hr.
    I did that yesterday and I am a high school drop out.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,553 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Ah, but at five minutes per, he's raking in $1,200/hr. He's got PLENTY after paying the bills. Gov't doesn't need to be subsidizing this.
    That's assuming he's:
    A. Spending only 5 minutes per patient.
    B. Going from patient to patient with no breaks, no note-taking, nothing.

    How much do you really know about how doctors work? Or is this more supposition on your part?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 15,367 Senior Member
    That's assuming he's:
    A. Spending only 5 minutes per patient.
    B. Going from patient to patient with no breaks, no note-taking, nothing.

    How much do you really know about how doctors work? Or is this more supposition on your part?

    Your assumptions above are correct enough - and I grew up as well as married into a "Medical Family". Truth of the matter is, you don't need to even prove these suppositions of mine - just look at how they live! On my back and yours.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,918 Senior Member
    Doctors only have two models to work on, and they haven't changed in thousands of years. They can also bury their mistakes. They get paid whether the problem gets fixed or not. I'd love to be able to run an auto repair shop that way. ASE certified mechanics have to retest every 4 years to keep their professional certificates. Why don't doctors, lawyers, and school administrators have to play by those rules?

    I have no problem with paying my doc what he asks, as long as he keeps me healthy. If he doesn't make the cut, I can vote with my feet and my dollars to find another provider. Maybe by the time the government gets around to denying people that kind of choice, I won't be around to gripe about it. Until then, I'm going to be my congress-critters' worst nightmare- - - - -an informed, vocal citizen who holds their feet to the fire every time they try to take another bite out of my freedom.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,553 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Your assumptions above are correct enough - and I grew up as well as married into a "Medical Family". Truth of the matter is, you don't need to even prove these suppositions of mine - just look at how they live! On my back and yours.
    Sounds like you favor a little wealth redistribution.


    So, to re-ask CPJ's question: how much SHOULD they make?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,761 Senior Member
    Typically, I only see my primary twice a year. I see my cardiologist once a year. So in a typical year, I only pay for 3 office calls. What they don't bill me for is the continuous monitoring of my coumadin levels, pacemaker readings, questions answered that I email, and prescriptions along with the coordination with each other to ensure that I have consistent care. My office calls are $150 a pop. So for $450 a year, I think I am getting a pretty good value for my money considering all the services they are providing.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 13,761 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    ASE certified mechanics have to retest every 4 years to keep their professional certificates. Why don't doctors, lawyers, and school administrators have to play by those rules?
    They don't have to retest, but they do have to constantly undergo training to maintain their licenses and certifications.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,918 Senior Member
    What is the guy who graduates last in his class at medical school called?
    :uhm:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
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