Pegasus wrote: »
I suspect you did not read my wall of data above. Nevertheless, I'm waiting with bated breath.
Ernie Bishop wrote: »
No doubt Erik Cortina had fun making this video.
cpj wrote: »
This is what ends the argument for me. When people who compete do things a certain way, there's a reason. When people who compete and win use X product (throwing out marketing wank and sponsorship BS) there's a reason.
Big Chief wrote: »
Nothing wrong with FL resizing either or using bushings or whatever for your purposes. Like anything else, you can take reloading to the Nth Degree.
Shooters have different requirements for their ammo and guns, could be precision or game hunting, informal/formal target shootin or whatever. Doesn't matter as long as it is done/performs safely for you and your guns.
Whatever works for you and everyone else on here, I'm OK with it, whether I do it the same way or not.
Linefinder wrote: »
Someday I'm going to figure out how to damage my hardened steel rifle with a piece of hollow soft brass.
I'll get back to you when I figure out how to do it.
snake284 wrote: »
For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
big elk wrote: »
How do you set up the F/L sizing where you don't get case separation at the base. I have never had one but it is pure luck. I F.L. everytime . I'm sure it's dumb luck. And to show how dumb I am, what is a S/B/F/L die?
Fisheadgib wrote: »
Most folks here gasp in horror about the thought of someone using an aluminum cleaning rod or not using a chamber guide. And the difference is?
cpj wrote: »
Has nothing to do with brass rubbing. Has to do with the necksized cases putting more pressure on the locking lugs when you open and close the bolt. Yes, they are hardened. But, you are putting more pressure on them.
Will mere mortals wear out a rifle in a lifetime? No. Competition shooters? Possibly.
early wrote: »
Hunters don't want any lube anywhere near the action.
Ernie Bishop wrote: »
I use or have a very light film of grease behind or on the back of my recoil lugs
Fisheadgib wrote: »
I have a friend that actually uses corn oil to lube his rifle. He's a pretty competant deer hunter and he claims that the smell of corn oil doesn't alarm deer like other lubricants.
tennmike wrote: »
I suppose now would be a good time to post the instructions on bolt break-in again. Been a while, and some folks are new, and some may have not copied and pasted the instructions into a Word or Notepad file.
Here are the instructions:
Instructions for bolt break-in.
Warning: ALL instructions must be followed exactly; NO deviations.
You will need:
A fire with a good bed of coals and additional firewood as necessary.
One cast iron pot deep enough to submerge the bolt nose first and completely immerse the bolt. This point is critical; NO OTHER MATERIAL CAN BE SUBSTITUTED FOR THE CAST IRON POT! Bad things will happen if you do.
Enough heavy oil, such as 90W gear oil to completely submerge the bolt.
A piece of wrought iron wire to suspend the bolt in the oil. A wrought iron rod to suspend the bolt above bottom of the pot.
Two wrought iron stakes to suspend the bolt, wire, and crosspiece when the bolt is removed from the boiling oil.
One piece of virgin unbleached heavy cotton cloth in which the bolt will be wrapped after the bolt has drained all excess oil from its interior and exterior surfaces.
Place cast iron pot on the coals and pour in oil to get heated to a light small bubbling boil.
Attach wrought iron wire to bolt handle, and attach a wrought iron rod to other end of wire to suspend bolt in the boiling oil.
Once the oil is boiling the bolt is submerged in the oil and the incantation begins. IT MUST BE MEMORIZED AS YOU CANNOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE POT! The sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are lurking in the shadows! They wait in the shadows for any sign of inattention and will launch an attack on the bolt. Soak time in the boiling oil is one hour exactly; no more and no less.
Bolt be placed in boiling oil,
bolt produced from sweaty toil.
Oil creep in and soak the pores,
all the threads and counter bores.
Make this bolt as slick as glass,
that through the action it will pass,
With not a scrape or binding be,
so fast that keen eyes cannot see.
Seal the bolt from weather's ire,
that no rust its surface mire.
Firing pin and spring of steel,
oil creeps in your heart to seal.
And make the lock time blazing fast,
that make groups shrink at muzzle blast.
And make the firing pin strike true,
off center hits will never do.
Oil soak in, do your work,
wherever dry spots tend to lurk.
Locking lugs soak in the oil,
that your fine surface will not spoil.
No galling will you ever see,
you will be slick, and always be.
Sharp leading edges sweep the grit,
from your bright surface they would pit.
Oil penetrate in every pore,
protect this bolt forevermore.
Once the incantation is complete, the bolt must be watched until the one hour time is up. Never take your eyes off the submerged bolt during this time, as the sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are waiting to attack!
Once the hour is up, and you have successfully fended off the sprite attacks, the bolt is removed from the pot and suspended on the wrough iron stakes. It must remain there until all excess oil has drained from the bolt. After no more oil drips from the bolt, wrap it in the virgin unbleached cotton cloth. It must remain in the cloth until it is placed back in the rifle action.
Having revealed this to you I can never use it again myself. Revealing this White Magic has turned it against me and were I to attemp to use it, the bolt lugs would surely gall, the firing pin break along with the spring, and the primers would always be hit off center.
Pegasus wrote: »
I totally understand mitdr774’s reluctance to get into such a discussion; he works hard, he’s tired and he won’t change his mind under any circumstances. I get that.
On the other hand Snake, you and I can talk and argue like nobody’s business and have fun doing it. So here goes.
You’ve been told wrong and you have been doing it wrong for 38 years and N/S can actually damage your rifles. How is that for an opening salvo? (Pegasus must be nuttier than usual.)
Now you know me, I always back up my statements with data and explanations, so here goes.
Your two arguments for N/S don’t stand up when you examine them critically. Let’s take the first one: “you don’t work the brass as much.” By that you are saying that N/S does not work the brass as much as F/L sizing. Please tell me in which universe you have EVER seen brass that was overworked by F/L sizing and how could you even tell that was the case? How do you know the brass has been “overworked?”
In my few weeks of handoading, I have never seen a case that was “overworked by F/L sizing.” I have seen case head separation, I have seen neck splits, I have seen failing shoulders, and most of all, I have seen primer pockets that are so enlarged the primers don’t stay in. I have yet to see a case fail because of F/L sizing overwork.
Case head separation is caused by someone not knowing how to set their sizing die and it can be discovered by using the technique described in the other thread. But if you set your sizing die properly, it will never happen and I don’t even bother checking that.
Split necks are caused by the use of standard sizing dies (N/S or F/L) where the mouth of the case is closed more than it should be and then expanded again by the expander ball. This occurs more often from rifles with a generous leade where the case mouth expands more than usual. When you work that case mouth with a standard die over and over again, it will split. You can alleviate that with annealing but even more specifically by eschewing the use of standard dies and using a bushing die with the proper size bushing and placing the expander ball in low Earth orbit where it belongs.
Failing shoulders is very rare and I have seen that with certain specific ancient calibers and with people using body dies. (Hold that thought, we’ll come back to it.) When you resize the case or more commonly when you use the body die, the shoulders do not go back properly and they crumple. This is very rare, but I have seen it.
The most common cause of death for a rifle case is the loose primer pocket. This will occur when you foolishly insist on using very stout loads in your rifle. That’s what kills my brass, because I do use very stout loads. I believe I **** the primer pocket expansion by using a small base F/L die from the first sizing as it pushes the case head back together some after each firing. I get 8 loadings with my brass from virgin and then I retire it. By that time the primer is VERY easy to insert.
Overworking my brass due to sizing? I don’t even know what that would look like. Do you?
Now that we have shot that first canard down, let’s go after the second one; brace yourself, it’s going to be rough.
When you neck size, the only thing you are doing is pushing back the neck to a smaller dimension, the body and shoulder of the case are untouched.
Now, when you fire a cartridge for the first time in your action, the principle of operation is for the case to expand until it is stopped by the chamber and it can’t expand any further. The mouth of the case expands also to obturate the bore and prevent the hot gases from going back into the chamber and your face. Everything goes out the barrel. When the pressure drops, the case shrinks back, a little, and comes off the wall. The bolt rotates the case to break any remaining stickiness and then pulls the fired case out of the chamber.
Brass has some elasticity inherent to it. This is why the case does shrink back a bit so you can pull it out. However that elasticity can be overcome with too much pressure. This is what happens when a bolt is hard to open. The brass was overworked due to too high a pressure and will not shrink back. When you try to rotate the bolt, the case is stuck to the wall of the chamber and it will not let go easily.
With me so far?
Ok. Now when you neck size, you do not bring back the case to a starting volume. The case now has the volume of a fired case that has shrunk back a bit. The next time you fire it the case expands again and shrinks back, but less than the prior time. Your twice-fired case now has an internal volume that is even greater than after the first firing. At some point, the N/S case becomes too difficult to rotate and extract. Neck sizers pull out something called a body die (told you we would come back to it) or may even decide to F/L size the many-times fired case to bring it back to “normal.” That doesn’t really work, the body die will bring it back some, but the brass will also spring back larger because that’s what brass does. So, even after using a body die, you have no clue about the internal volume. If you have to use a body die or if you have to F/L size the case at intervals, you do not have a consistent internal volume, especially between the load prior to the use of the body die and the load right after the use of the body die. You have no consistency from load to load.
Another reason you use the body die is to set the shoulder back some. This means that in the interval between the first firing and the time you use the body die, the shoulder has expanded, firing after firing. Another area of inconsistency, but it gets worse. This is actually how you damage your rifle.
Where going to stay with the bolt action here because I think everyone can agree that you really don’t want to neck size for semi-autos, levers and pumps. Why is that? Well, the common answer is these other action types do not have the camming action to chamber a neck sized cartridge. Imagine that.
Your bolt action should not be used to crush fit a fat cartridge with a too long neck either. If you do that consistently you are damaging your action; the lugs, the handle, etc. They are designed to hold the cartridge in place during ignition, to obturate the bore, not to coax bad cartridges into the chamber.
But it gets worse. If you have ANY resistance when you open the bolt and pull out the fired cartridge, you’ve got an overpressure situation. That can be caused by a bad load or by an ill-fitting cartridge, either way you are doing damage to your action. I know that a lot of neck sizers decide it’s time to use the body die when the bolt gets really hard to close or open; they are causing damage to their rifles, on top of getting inconsistencies from load to load.
A properly adjusted F/L resizing die for a single rifle should put the shoulder back about .001 to .002 from fired, squeeze the body and shrink the neck and mouth. When you load a handloaded cartridge, the bolt should close smoothly without any resistance whatsoever. When the shot is taken, you should be able to open the bolt without a hint of resistance then either. If there is any resistance anywhere, you have a problem, if it persists, you are damaging your rifle. If you open your bolt and hear a click at the top of the stroke, you’re really damaging your rifle.
Yes, I am an F-class shooter; yes, my action alone if $1,400, just the action. My barrels are chambered exactly to my specs using a dummy cartridge with the bullet seated exactly how I want it and just at the lands when the barrel is unfired. The chamber is tight, very tight.
Because of the tightness of my chamber, I could probably get away with neck sizing the case since it does not have much room for the brass to grow unlike factory rifles with their obese chambers. I F/L size my fired cartridges after every firing because I insist on the highest consistency between loadings and I absolutely must have the smoothest possible action travel. When I am in the middle of a competition, the very last thing I want is to be fighting with the action at every shot. I place the cartridge in the action and I close the bolt just before I fire. It’s ALWAYS as smooth as butter; no resistance. I then pull my 1.5 ounce trigger with the same finger that closed the bolt. When the round is fired and I finish my followthrough, I can open the bolt with the back of my thumb and pull the bolt back and fish out the fired case from the action. Imagine if I had to fight with the bolt at every shot.
snake284 wrote: »
OK, yeah you have enough room in your chamber that when your NS cartridge is fired, it doesn't come back to the same size as the last firing.
But, it comes back a lot closer than if you size your brass all the way back to the rim which FL sizing does.
If you are setting your sizing die where there is less room for expansion then you are doing something akin to neck sizing.
If you size the case all the way back to its factory like most people do when they fl size then you work your brass more than neck sizing. I would argue anytime you use your fl sizing die you work the brass more than neck sizing.
But, I do agree with you about primer pockets. If you shoot your cases until the primer pockets are expanding excessively you are over using them.
Ten loadings is pushing it. And if you anneal the case, you're fixing part of it only.
You can't fix the primer pocket by annealing the neck.
I think you can extend the life by using a small base fl die like every 8 reloadings. That will work the brass, but only once. Once you fire it the size goes back. But maybe the primer pocket stays small for a few more firings, but I don't think this would get you more than three more loadings before primer pockets are loose again