Needs Americans To Operate (NATO)

centermass556centermass556 Senior MemberPosts: 3,374 Senior Member
So while we are at it, lets talk about another venture that is draining American coffers with absolutely zero return on investment. While it may have been a grand Idea after the end of the war, and supposedly kept the Commies from coming through Fulda Gap, it is outdated and worthless.

Having been apart of NATO operations and served in a NATO unit for three years, I can tell you first hand the only teeth the tiger has comes from the US and Britain. Even during the Balkan crisis, and after the UN screwed the pooch, NATO couldn't handle the break up of Yugoslavia without heavy US aid.

So what use is NATO now? Why does it still exist? It exists as an extension of the EU. NATO took over the mission in afghanistan. I still don't know how that happened. Shortly after taking over, they changed the rules for contracting services and procurement. In order to bid for a contract in afghanistan, for anything, you must be a coalition member. So, the EU now makes sure it has a coalition partner in country for whatever it wants to market to the war. Food stuff, ammo, contract services, you name it. Korea tried to get hip to this, but was continuously failed to get bids. They weren't part of the cool club.

And it goes deeper. The EU and NATO are playing "partner nations" of Eastern Europe against the middle. NATO promises faster acceptance into the org if the country sends troops. and, the EU promises faster acceptance for being part of NATO. If you know about the history of the EU and ESCC, then you know how scary or promising this can be to the fragile economies of smaller countries.

Meanwhile, we have Polish, Czechs, Georgians, and everyone else pulling some sort of duty in afghanistan, and the US is sending troops to those countries as a show of force towards the Russians. A show of force that is only required because the EU and NATO have slowly marched their way to Russia's doorstep and diminished the Soviet economic sphere of influence. If you start peeling back the onion to about 10 years ago, you can see this 21st century round of Russian angst did not begin until this new Western European Empire began to move east at a rapid pace. History has shown that western european empires are not Soviet friendly.

So who is at the head of all this. Well it is the same people that are pulling the string in the EU. Germany. Germany learned from its failures in post WWI, subsequent failure of WWII, and did not attempt to control Europe through military might. Instead, Germany romanced France and the Netherlands and created the European Steel and Coal Community. History gives credit to the French for this concept as a way to prevent another war with Germany, however in 1951 the Allied occupation made that a null argument. Since the creation of the ESCC and its evolution into the EU, Germany has conquered Europe through economic means and has forced the French to rely completely on the Germans. The two pillars of the EU are France and Germany, with Germany having the upper hand. France knows that nothing can happen without German say so. If France pulls away, they will tank. I believe the Brits saw this during the P.I.G.S. crisis and knew it was time to punch out, or there would get trapped like France.

And, through it all, America continues to foot a heavy portion of the bill for NATO and then unwittingly supplies the EU with more power.

So where is the threat for us to remain heavily invested in NATO. It seems to me, the threat is in staying.
"To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."

Comments

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,912 Senior Member
    Some things never change- - - - -the streets in Paris are tree-lined because the German army likes to march in the shade!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,015 Senior Member
    So while we are at it, lets talk about another venture that is draining American coffers with absolutely zero return on investment. While it may have been a grand Idea after the end of the war, and supposedly kept the Commies from coming through Fulda Gap, it is outdated and worthless.

    Having been apart of NATO operations and served in a NATO unit for three years, I can tell you first hand the only teeth the tiger has comes from the US and Britain. Even during the Balkan crisis, and after the UN screwed the pooch, NATO couldn't handle the break up of Yugoslavia without heavy US aid.

    So what use is NATO now? Why does it still exist? It exists as an extension of the EU. NATO took over the mission in afghanistan. I still don't know how that happened. Shortly after taking over, they changed the rules for contracting services and procurement. In order to bid for a contract in afghanistan, for anything, you must be a coalition member. So, the EU now makes sure it has a coalition partner in country for whatever it wants to market to the war. Food stuff, ammo, contract services, you name it. Korea tried to get hip to this, but was continuously failed to get bids. They weren't part of the cool club.

    And it goes deeper. The EU and NATO are playing "partner nations" of Eastern Europe against the middle. NATO promises faster acceptance into the org if the country sends troops. and, the EU promises faster acceptance for being part of NATO. If you know about the history of the EU and ESCC, then you know how scary or promising this can be to the fragile economies of smaller countries.

    Meanwhile, we have Polish, Czechs, Georgians, and everyone else pulling some sort of duty in afghanistan, and the US is sending troops to those countries as a show of force towards the Russians. A show of force that is only required because the EU and NATO have slowly marched their way to Russia's doorstep and diminished the Soviet economic sphere of influence. If you start peeling back the onion to about 10 years ago, you can see this 21st century round of Russian angst did not begin until this new Western European Empire began to move east at a rapid pace. History has shown that western european empires are not Soviet friendly.

    So who is at the head of all this. Well it is the same people that are pulling the string in the EU. Germany. Germany learned from its failures in post WWI, subsequent failure of WWII, and did not attempt to control Europe through military might. Instead, Germany romanced France and the Netherlands and created the European Steel and Coal Community. History gives credit to the French for this concept as a way to prevent another war with Germany, however in 1951 the Allied occupation made that a null argument. Since the creation of the ESCC and its evolution into the EU, Germany has conquered Europe through economic means and has forced the French to rely completely on the Germans. The two pillars of the EU are France and Germany, with Germany having the upper hand. France knows that nothing can happen without German say so. If France pulls away, they will tank. I believe the Brits saw this during the P.I.G.S. crisis and knew it was time to punch out, or there would get trapped like France.

    And, through it all, America continues to foot a heavy portion of the bill for NATO and then unwittingly supplies the EU with more power.

    So where is the threat for us to remain heavily invested in NATO. It seems to me, the threat is in staying.
    By any chance did you watch The Putin Interviews on Showtime? If not they are still on “on demand”. I think you’d enjoy them.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,374 Senior Member
    Can't stream there here...

    What were the highlights? Am I off base on my Russian assessment?
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,015 Senior Member
    Can't stream there here...

    What were the highlights? Am I off base on my Russian assessment?

    Not at all, as a matter of fact it goes EXACTLY with Putin's observations. In fact he complains that one after another FOUR American Presidents pledged a better relationship with him and assured him (as George Bush REPEATEDLY did all through his administration) that the cold war is over and yet they surround Russia with missile launchers under the guise of a "defensive system" that within hours can be configured to offensive capabilities. It is an EYE OPENING experience to listen to his perspectives on the disinformation that is wantonly distributed throughout the west by politicians and the press about Russia, and his view of American politics and world affairs. In this series of interviews he answered a lot of VERY tough questions. And quite frankly his answers make a lot more sense than most of the gibberish that spews out of the mouths of guys like McCain on our side and re-affirms your position above...

    Should be required viewing for everyone that wants a true global view.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 25,015 Senior Member
    There are a few short segments of it on YouTube, look for the ones with the Showtime logo. Just search Putin Interviews Oliver Stone...

    Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrBoj760aD8&list=PLZ8c54cxQG2G9izgt38IcMS03teviAplu
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,454 Senior Member
    NATO is a dinosaur that doesn't know it's dead, and the U.S. is still stuck with most of the feed bill. Time to wean them off the U.S. $$$$$ teat and let them float their own stick.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,678 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    NATO is a dinosaur that doesn't know it's dead, and the U.S. is still stuck with most of the feed bill. Time to wean them off the U.S. $$$$$ teat and let them float their own stick.

    Wean 'em hell, CHOP 'em!!! Anytime we are footing over 50% of any bill, we are getting hosed by everybody. Chop the head off that goose right now!!! Put that money into our own defense or into some offensive weapons that we can use ourselves if Russia or anybody would make an offensive move into Europe. We don't get crap out of having all these other small time nations in a coalition.

    If they want to help just send man power here for training and service with our troops with no path to citizenship. And their government can foot that bill, pay their salaries. They sort of did this in WWII with soldiers from Poland, France, and other countries that were occupied by the axis but had gotten out to England or the U.S. before the Nazis shut the door. If they don't want to play our game tuff Poo!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,470 Senior Member
    "... avoid foreign entanglements..." - President George Washington
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,172 Senior Member
    Well ... I feel we need to get out of the United Nations even more than NATO ... but your firsthand insight makes me rethink that. Now it looks like we need to do both and really save resources on stuff outside our borders and take care of our own business.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 20,678 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Well ... I feel we need to get out of the United Nations even more than NATO ... but your firsthand insight makes me rethink that. Now it looks like we need to do both and really save resources on stuff outside our borders and take care of our own business.

    Isolationism isn't good either. We don't need to do any nation building but sometimes it's within our interest to keep the world's bullies straight. Yeah, I know, we're not the world's police, but sometimes we need to be or we'll turn around one day surrounded by the bad guys.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,350 Senior Member
    Centermass, do you think our affiliations with NATO provide intel, make it easier to gain intel, or establish relationships that provide future intel? Is there any benefit?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 1,602 Senior Member
    I cannot remember his name, but I heard one guy say, "The Soviet Union was a second-rate power, scared into becoming a super-power." When I was in during 88-89 AT the Fulda Gap, NATO could field 6 million more troops than the Warsaw Pact. All we had to do was hold them off long enough for reinforcements.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,374 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Centermass, do you think our affiliations with NATO provide intel, make it easier to gain intel, or establish relationships that provide future intel? Is there any benefit?

    We do trade intel at the strategic and operational level. However, We are getting back nearly what we provide or pay for being NATO.

    Now I am not in favor of Isolationism. However, We need to redefine some relationships and how much investment should be continued. Right now, I our investment in NATO is preventing us from having an investment in more profitable parts of the world, and our "adversaries" are capitalizing on this shortfall. China is succeeding in Africa where we are failing.

    The thing is though, we have to understand that not all world problems can't be solved by Western Solutions, or more specifically US solutions. The US evolved completely different from the rest of the world. WE took the blueprint for the Social Contract (hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, etc,) that was written by europeans, and made it come true. The French tried the same thing and failed. So, can an issue in Europe be solved by the US..maybe, maybe not. A European problem would become a world issue, however it needs to have a European solution with an applicable level of US support. The US does not need to be the lead in any part of it.

    Our continued containment doctrine is a perceived threat to the rest of the world. We may not practice it in the same fashion that we did in the 60s and 70s, however we are doing it in a very economical fashion. As we ignore certain markets in an effort to maintain and expand a sphere of economic influence in Europe and Asia, we look threatening and are losing ground in other areas.

    So do we completely leave NATO, no. But we need to redefine the relationship and rewrite the treaty. It is time for Europe to stand on its own. We don't put this level of invest into our treaty with the South Pacific. And, we sure don't provide the same level of protection for our south american partners.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,374 Senior Member
    Tugar wrote: »
    I cannot remember his name, but I heard one guy say, "The Soviet Union was a second-rate power, scared into becoming a super-power." When I was in during 88-89 AT the Fulda Gap, NATO could field 6 million more troops than the Warsaw Pact. All we had to do was hold them off long enough for reinforcements.

    It is a shell game. They didn't have the 6 mil they said they did. Just like our end strength on 31 DEC was roughly 475,000. However, we readiness issue in the force that reduces that number to roughly 350,000.

    The Europeans were counting on the conscription of Citizens and "reserve forces" to make that 6 mil happen.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,791 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Isolationism isn't good either. We don't need to do any nation building but sometimes it's within our interest to keep the world's bullies straight. Yeah, I know, we're not the world's police, but sometimes we need to be or we'll turn around one day surrounded by the bad guys.

    At the other end of the spectrum, go too far in the direction we've been going and we'll look in the mirror one day and realize we are the bullies. Remember it is a rare thing for the bad guy to know he's the bad guy. Everyone thinks they're the good guy, but it's not always true.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,374 Senior Member
    At the other end of the spectrum, go too far in the direction we've been going and we'll look in the mirror one day and realize we are the bullies. Remember it is a rare thing for the bad guy to know he's the bad guy. Everyone thinks they're the good guy, but it's not always true.

    I hate to begin the year like this, but I agree with alpha. To many we already are the bullies.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,289 Senior Member
    At the other end of the spectrum, go too far in the direction we've been going and we'll look in the mirror one day and realize we are the bullies. Remember it is a rare thing for the bad guy to know he's the bad guy. Everyone thinks they're the good guy, but it's not always true.

    Just because we've stopped kissing ass all over the world doesn't mean we're being a bully. I'd like to know what things are being done that is bullying to you. I consider bullying being like Nazi Germany prior to and during WW2, Russia after WW2, and Russia, North Korea, and Iran today. Exerting influence is not bullying. If you think Trumps tweets are bullying, maybe you should hide your 'offended' self in your "safe space" somewhere.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 17,912 Senior Member
    I used to tell my students this at the beginning of every year: "Like me if you choose, fear me if you choose, but either way, you're definitely going to respect me. You make the choice how it happens! How I get that level of respect is entirely up to you, but it's going to happen one way or another!"

    Carrot and stick diplomacy works, as long as we have the biggest stick, and use it occasionally to make an example of somebody.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,547 Senior Member
    Just because we've stopped kissing ass all over the world doesn't mean we're being a bully. I'd like to know what things are being done that is bullying to you. I consider bullying being like Nazi Germany prior to and during WW2, Russia after WW2, and Russia, North Korea, and Iran today. Exerting influence is not bullying. If you think Trumps tweets are bullying, maybe you should hide your 'offended' self in your "safe space" somewhere.
    I didn't read Alpha's post as saying we are the bully, but saying we could become the bully if we keep on trying to expand our influence.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 8,962 Senior Member
    I hate to begin the year like this, but I agree with alpha. To many we already are the bullies.

    And tomany of those, we will ALWAYS be the bully. Even if we go away completely, we will continue to be blamed by those that keep their power by fighting against us
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,374 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    And tomany of those, we will ALWAYS be the bully. Even if we go away completely, we will continue to be blamed by those that keep their power by fighting against us

    That's true. There are several leaders out there that will continue to point at us and tell their countries that we are the problem. However, we also have a policy of Self Determination that has different definition from the rest of the world's.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,172 Senior Member
    I hate to begin the year like this, but I agree with alpha. To many we already are the bullies.

    Yep, we stick our noses in countries who are not truly our allies ... we interfere in the social progression of them in the name of democracy where feudal lords have ruled longer than the US has been around ... we push many of our beliefs and ways on them since we “know better” and NATO along with the UN does the same quite a bit also. What good is building something that is not really wanted and will start to fall apart once our support is withdrawn. Now when there is a relationship and true assistance is asked for and wanted find but you can’t save those who don’t understand and want our interference.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,289 Senior Member
    I didn't read Alpha's post as saying we are the bully, but saying we could become the bully if we keep on trying to expand our influence.

    To me it implies we are going in that direction, and I disagree. Bush was a "nation builder" and that was definitely a bit of bullying. Obama interfered with middle eastern and north African countries as well by helping militant "rebels" overthrow the existing governments. Was that not bullying? I just don't see Trump as a nation builder or a bully.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,547 Senior Member
    To me it implies we are going in that direction, and I disagree. Bush was a "nation builder" and that was definitely a bit of bullying. Obama interfered with middle eastern and north African countries as well by helping militant "rebels" overthrow the existing governments. Was that not bullying? I just don't see Trump as a nation builder or a bully.
    I agree on Presidents Bush and Obama. I agree Pres. Trump's probably not a nation builder, but to be or not be a bully? I think it's too early to tell, still. He might not be, or he might be. His rhetoric could just be a way to get folks to come to the table (again, business man, not politician.) But considering we're still involved in some areas where Presidents Bush and Obama got us, it doesn't look like the course has really changed that much....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,289 Senior Member
    I agree on Presidents Bush and Obama. I agree Pres. Trump's probably not a nation builder, but to be or not be a bully? I think it's too early to tell, still. He might not be, or he might be. His rhetoric could just be a way to get folks to come to the table (again, business man, not politician.) But considering we're still involved in some areas where Presidents Bush and Obama got us, it doesn't look like the course has really changed that much....

    I don't think we can just bail out at this point, and besides there are a lot of terrorists to get rid of over there before they come here.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,547 Senior Member
    I don't think we can just bail out at this point, and besides there are a lot of terrorists to get rid of over there before they come here.
    Not saying we need to pull out, just that the execution of plans doesn’t seem to have changed.

    Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk
    Overkill is underrated.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,791 Senior Member
    I don't think we can just bail out at this point, and besides there are a lot of terrorists to get rid of over there before they come here.
    That is always a tough balance for me. The big challenge is the number of "terrorists" is not fixed. There are some number who are already radicalized, they need to be dealt with, but our actions in that part of the world tend to have the effect of radicalizing more. I'm not convinced that we don't create more terrorists than we kill in a never ending game of whack a mole.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 21,454 Senior Member
    At the rate that NATO member countries are being invaded by Islamic radicals and taking over the countries it won't be long until NATO will no longer be a viable organization. They will be Islamic by default.
    A double action revolver is a semiauto firearm. It fires once for every trigger pull.



  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,289 Senior Member
    That is always a tough balance for me. The big challenge is the number of "terrorists" is not fixed. There are some number who are already radicalized, they need to be dealt with, but our actions in that part of the world tend to have the effect of radicalizing more. I'm not convinced that we don't create more terrorists than we kill in a never ending game of whack a mole.

    I think the problem is much more cultural when it comes to radicalization. The children of almost all of these people that are being schooled in the Madrassa's are radicalized by the time they leave the school system. They are taught to hate Jews and all the other "infidels." The rest are being affected by what they see on the internet. Sure it's a game of whack-a-mole, but what else are we going to do but kill as many as we can? Maybe we should be even more aggressive.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,289 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    At the rate that NATO member countries are being invaded by Islamic radicals and taking over the countries it won't be long until NATO will no longer be a viable organization. They will be Islamic by default.

    Europeans will be responsible for their own demise. We need to end the program of importing all who want to come here as well.....change the system into need basis only, like Trump wants.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.

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