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Thread: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

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    S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    With new S&W Governor on the market, is the the concept of the .410/.45 or the quality of the original Taurus that has deterred our members? I think the .410/.45 concept is valid with some caveats. I am not a fan of the .410 as a defensive round. However, for snakes I see it as being a great idea, better than loading shot in a .38/.357. So, does the new Governor change your mind? The added ability to use .45 ACP and GAP in moon clips in addition to .45 Colt seems to be a great idea and adds to the versatility of the revolver. Was it simply the lack of quality of Taurus firearms that initially jaded all of us towards the platform style, or is it a flaw in the concept? Buford's go to picture and the many experiences of previous/current Taurus owners obviously highlights the downside of some Taurus products. I will never buy a Taurus firearms, however I am intersted in the concept as a whole.

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I can't speak for everyone obviously But for me it's the concept in general, though I'll admit a bit more interest in a Smith version. I have way more handguns than I've got fingers much less hands and all things considered if I were in serious need of a weapon to defend myself in my home I'd hope I could get to my 1911 or my 870 12 gauge first.
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Hmmm. I wasn't that interested when the Thunder 5 came out, so for me it's the concept.
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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I don't feel confident with the .410 round for personal protection. Maybe as a snake gun, but when I am in the woods, I like a balanced side arm. One capable of handling anything from snakes, deer, to tweeked out meth heads. I'll stick to my other more proven chamberings that start with a ".4"
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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    For me, it's the concept in general. An answer in search of the question. In the same size pistol, or smaller, a .44 Mag. or .44 Special revolver with six shots in the cylinder would make me more comfortable. The S&W Governor and the Taurus Judge are HUGE pistols. Concealing one as a carry weapon is a major issue with either. For home defense, the shotgun with extended magazine, and the 1911 are what I want.
    Not worried about encountering Mr. NoLegs in the woods; there's sticks and blowdown branches in the woods. Move the snake out of the way with one, or shoot it with the .357 Mag. or the .45 ACP if it has a bad attitude. Ammunition is cheap; unload the magazine or cylinder on it, if necessary.

    Now, if they get that revolving carbine in .38-55/.375 Win., or .444 Marlin, I'd be all over that one.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    My feeling is that such a gun would work great as a camp/cabin/fishing gun. Load it with shot for the hike in, a few .45 Colt for more serious problems and you have a well rounded package for overnight fishing trips. I see no appeal whatsoever to the .410 for defense. For that I reach for a different firearm.

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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    If you're worried about snakes, 1-2 shot cartridges should do.
    Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free. - Maj. Frank Burns

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Quote Originally Posted by breamfisher View Post
    If you're worried about snakes, 1-2 shot cartridges should do.
    That is a very fair assessment. However, why not one shot with a dedicated shot shell? Is that not like saying why not 2-3 .32s as opposed to 1-2 .40s. I'm more playing devils advocate here, but the concept appears to me as a very versatile platform.

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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    That is good for a little of everything, but does poor with a lot of something.

    It would not be my first choice if I ran into those tweeking meth heads in the woods. But I suppose it would work better than the pointy end of a sharp stick...
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    One shot cartridge should do. The second's just in case of multiple snakes, or you get a bit unnerved and muff the first shot (more likely.)

    I think the problem with the platform is that they've marketed it as an SD firearm when it's really good mainly as a woods gun.
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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    But those judges were wanting such a pistol to protect themselves in the courtroom!
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    The judges I knew who carried all had something substantial. Like an actual .45 (Colt or ACP)...
    Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free. - Maj. Frank Burns

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Quote Originally Posted by breamfisher View Post
    One shot cartridge should do. The second's just in case of multiple snakes, or you get a bit unnerved and muff the first shot (more likely.)

    I think the problem with the platform is that they've marketed it as an SD firearm when it's really good mainly as a woods gun.
    Thats my point. I do not see it as a defensive gun at all, rather as a woods gun that is very versatile. A .410 in my opinion is not a viable defensive round. One of the .45 rounds that it chambers is much better. However, I see a dedicated defensive gun as a better PD firearm. A gun designed to throw shot in addition to HPs cannot be good at throwing just defensive bullets. For PD/HD I would rather choose true defensive gun than a compromise. Likewise, for packing into Alaska a shotgun or rifle plus a dedicated bigbore handgun is better. The .410/.45 combo is a comprise both ways. However, is the compromise not a good combination for cutting wood, planting food plots, and catching fish when not overly worried about grizzlies and tweaked out meth heads?

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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    But my point is: you don't really need the compromise. You can get the job done quite well with a good .22, .38, or .357 loaded with shot cartridge(s) and have something that's not a one-trick wonder.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Don't matter of it's made by Taurus or S&W...in my world, it's useless as a nipple on a boar hog...Pops always said that tools with multiple uses may do a lot of things, but they just don't do ANYTHING well...
    Last edited by Jayhawker; 08-20-2011 at 04:33 AM.
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    Senior Member knitepoet's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    The concept is a big for me.

    edited to add: And yes AAMOF I have handled and shot one
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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelsman56 View Post
    Thats my point. I do not see it as a defensive gun at all, rather as a woods gun that is very versatile. A .410 in my opinion is not a viable defensive round. One of the .45 rounds that it chambers is much better. However, I see a dedicated defensive gun as a better PD firearm. A gun designed to throw shot in addition to HPs cannot be good at throwing just defensive bullets. For PD/HD I would rather choose true defensive gun than a compromise. Likewise, for packing into Alaska a shotgun or rifle plus a dedicated bigbore handgun is better. The .410/.45 combo is a comprise both ways. However, is the compromise not a good combination for cutting wood, planting food plots, and catching fish when not overly worried about grizzlies and tweaked out meth heads?

    You say you don't see it as a defensive gun at all, but a woods gun. Unless you plan on using it for hunting or just shooting at random stuff in the woods, it is a defensive gun. Snakes, wild dogs, rabid raccoons, and the occasional tweeker all warrant a threat, therefore it becomes a defensive gun.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGeorgeKillian View Post
    You say you don't see it as a defensive gun at all, but a woods gun. Unless you plan on using it for hunting or just shooting at random stuff in the woods, it is a defensive gun. Snakes, wild dogs, rabid raccoons, and the occasional tweeker all warrant a threat, therefore it becomes a defensive gun.
    That is an exceptionally valid point that I had not considered really. However, is a load from a .410 not better for snake defense than a small load of shot from a .38? Likewise, is the ability to carry 2 rounds of .410, and then 4 rounds of .45 Colt not conducive to woods defense? In my parts, the most likely opponents to be faced in the woods are snakes, rabid possums, and black bears. Very interesting points gentleman.

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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    My only point in the justification for a Judge style gun is that for the size and weight of that thing, you could carry something useful. If I am carrying something that heavy and cumbersome it will be a 1911 or something of the like.
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    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Well this forum has me gun shy pardon the pun, of Taurus, for sure, but talking to a friend that runs a LGS he says he can't keep enough Judges in stock. They sell like hotcakes at a church breakfast. Also, I have nothing against a .410 as a self defense round. A .410's limitations are more for longer range shotgunning. Close up, say 15 yards or less a good .410 can make a mess of a body. Also you are quite right, a .410 for snakes is much more effective than a 38 with snake shot, especially in the 3 inch chambering. And, as long as you have a 45 colt in the next cylinder, it can be a formidable weapon. The S&W is no doubt the superior quality gun, but for going bang at <15 yards I don't get too anal over it.

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Remember when your mother told you "If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?" Well, Taurus jumped off a cliff and S&W decided to go with them.

    A dumb idea is a dumb idea, and bird / buck shot through a rifled barrel is pretty high up on the stupid scale. The patterns donut into uselessness in a very short distance. The difference between these two products is that one of them can be described as "Stupid: but well executed" .410 slugs seem like an OK idea only until you realize that any number of dedicated .45 caliber handgun platforms can do a better job with a much shorter cylinder.
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    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I disagree that it makes a totally usless pattern. There's many a rattlesnake been slayed by a 38 Spc. with snake shot. I wouldn't use it for shooting doves or flying targets at 25+ yards, but for what it was designed for, at normal snake distance it works well. And I still say, even though it may not make a classic pattern, a .410 at 10-15 yards with bird shot and a well placed shot, will ruin Mr. BG day.

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I think the concept is validated by the fact that S & W copied it and Winchester has developed personal defense loads to compliment it.
    http://www.winchester.com/Products/N.../pdx1-410.aspx

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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    To me it's like that Winchester lever action .410 model 94 shotgun/rifle. Or a bolt action shotgun, a novelty. I'll say one thing though, I've talked to more people that ordinarily don't buy/want any handguns who have bought one. Which is good in the great scheme of things, although most are uninformed on the capabilities of a .410 from a short barrel and think they have the ultimate defensive weapon. I usually just bite my tongue and tell them to check out the newer .410 loads available that are specifically designed for the Judge/GOV.

    It's much better than nothing, it does have an intimidation factor and I sure wouldn't wanna get blasted by one.

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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    Validated? Because everyone else sees how well the Judge is doing from a marketing standpoint so they jump on the band wagon and try to cash in. Hardly validated in my book.

    Fact is that anyone who is a die hard Judge fan is very ignorant to a few facts. Ask Ericb about the deadly stopping power of the .410 against a human body. Know why you can ask him that? Because he very much survived being shot with one a while back.

    Of all the other options that you could choose to carry instead of the Judge, they all seem to work better at all ranges. If you want to carry a .45, carry a .45. Not something that is close enough.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    First time I saw a Judge I couldn't believe anybody would want one, I think they're a monstrosity.
    The freakishly long cylinder and 5 shot capacity leaves me cold, and a .410 from a 3" barrel is a crummy idea.
    All I see are disadvantages to the concept.

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    Senior Member NN's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I think the concept is good; the problem is that the design that accommodates a .410 doesn't work well and makes too big of a revolver, IMO.

    I have a lot of experience using revolver shot shells and the best way, if you need the shotshell in the gun is to load 2 shotshells and 4 ball/SD rnds because re-positioning the cylinder only takes a moment. This assumes you have the proper type rnd for the perceived threat in position to be fired first.

    Sometimes a snake needs a double tap with the shot shell, esp. a moccasin in water.

    .40/.45acp commercial shotshells jam revolvers on the first shot unless you have the blue capsule type---- though the commercial shotshells in those calibers are necked down case kind. So in .4 you need .44 or .45 colt. The 9mm & .38/.357 work well enough.

    I will not buy a Judge type revolver for other reasons than concept.
    Last edited by NN; 08-20-2011 at 02:21 PM.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    It was a dumb idea back when the Thunder Five was on the market, it was a dumb idea when Taurus rebirthed it, and it's a dumb idea now that S&W is doing it.

    A compact .45 caliber revolver is a great idea. Making it huge with the cylinder with elephantiasis is dumb.

    Think about how big the Thunder Five/ Judge/ Governor is, and it gives you no more firepower than a Charter Bulldog. And the Bulldog can fit in your back pocket.
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    The .410/.45 Colt handgun concept, if done right, is OK in principle (the T/C Contender barrel set up this way), as a challenging hunting/target gun. Thing is, you sacrifice accuracy with the bullet, and limit yourself dramatically with the shotshell. And the Contender had a specific "choke tube" that essentially tried to cancel the spin imparted to the shot load to keep the pattern usable at any kind of practical range.

    I think the abortive Thunder Five, and Taurus more recently, rather grossly misrepresented the gun in their marketing strategy. Seriously, judges in the courtroom wanting an oversized revolver that could shoot either .45 Colt or the "devastating" .410 shotshell (reference EricB's experience above)?!? When they have typically an armed deputy in the courtroom or immediately available at most times, and a slew of armed police officers for high-profile cases or notably dangerous defendants? I don't see it.

    Novelty yes. One to jump up and down over as the be-all and end-all of defensive handgunnery? Not for me.

    One thing not yet mentioned relating to "snake defense" is the number of pellets in the typical .410 shot load (I don't ever recall seeing shot smaller than #9 in a factory .410) vs. the typical "snake load" of .45 Colt, .38/.357, or similar handgun shot loads, using #12 shot. I would be willing to bet the smaller shot pellets would give a better, more even distribution of pellets in the "kill zone" of a snake with the smaller shot size...

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    Senior Member SirGeorgeKillian's Avatar
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    Re: S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge. Is it the maker or the concept that jaded us?

    I think these guys were right on the money

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post

    There no mangos like Dans mangos.

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