Hillary testifies finally

[alphasigmookie]

Laser designator devices are not a continuous beam, and are invisible to normal vision. They send out a series of coded light pulses to guide the munitions on target, or to aim the guns on the Spectre gunship when used in that mode of operation. Like Sir George said, no one in their right mind would illuminate a target with IR light; it's like a continuous tracer back to the source.

But if it's IR that's only the case if your target also has nv capabilities isn't it? While not impossible, not likely the attackers were nv equipped. The point though is that IR is used for more than designating targets for air strikes so the use of IR is not sufficient evidence for the presence of air support. Maybe someone who actually has experience in night combat ops can chime in.

[alphasigmookie]

Alf,

If you don't detect a mountain of BS in all of this, your credibility drops to zero with anybody who has actually followed this. You avoided the threads about this until the Obama administration patched together this 'flimsy' story and sent the troops out to screech at the 'tin foil hat conspirators.' You pretend to be so objective and are capable of presenting mountains of charts, data, and statistics about anything your guys are trying to sell, but you have nothing but this BS story that is akin to saying "the dog ate my homework" when it comes to this clearly bungled national security issue.

If the media wasn't helping Obama with this, he would be in deep doo-doo over this, and any honest person knows that. You are making a fool of yourself.

Here is the question. What exactly should have Obama and Clinton done differently? What do you think they are lying about/covering up. What do they gain by doing so?

Other than initially using the "ongoing investigation" arguement to downplay the terrorism link in the first week I don't see much here.

[SirGeorgeKillian]

But if it's IR that's only the case if your target also has nv capabilities isn't it? While not impossible, not likely the attackers were nv equipped. The point though is that IR is used for more than designating targets for air strikes so the use of IR is not sufficient evidence for the presence of air support. Maybe someone who actually has experience in night combat ops can chime in.

An IR designator has one purpose. That is to paint a target for a strike. The entire time this attack was going on, these men were begging for support that was never called in.

[SirGeorgeKillian]

Here is the question. What exactly should have Obama and Clinton done differently? What do you think they are lying about/covering up. What do they gain by doing so?

Where to start. By starters when you have an attack going on American soil, you don't sit in a situation room and watch. You send in the Calvary. Second, you don't run a skeleton crew security detail in an area that even the British have moved out of on the anniversary of the greatest terrorist attack in history. Third, you don't brush this off repeatedly as outrage from a parody video that was posted on YouTube. I knew from the second I watched the video, it was not the cause. Don't insult my intelligence by making statements about how we are making moves to prosecute those responsible for making the film. Fourth, after denying the help that could save the man's son, don't go up to Tyrone Woods' father and comment on how big his son's balls are. Fifth, stalling while the nation is watching having a concussion, then testifying a month later yelling what difference does it make? It could have made a lot of difference if our administration was less worried about getting reelected and apologizing to the entire world. This whole situation is complete bull crap and you know it!

[bisley]

Obviously, we don't know what we don't know, here. Allegations have been made that may or may not be true, but there is absolutely no denying that they were lying from the beginning, and have been stonewalling, since.

We had the State Department testifying before Congress that they were watching this real-time and knew from the outset that this was an organized attack of the Al Qaeda type. Still the administration vehemently insisted that this was a spontaneous riot brought about by some video that hardly anyone in the Middle East even knew (or cared) about. You tell me why they would do this, knowing that the lie was unsustainable.

I think they did it because it fit their campaign narrative, that Al Qaeda had been decimated and was in decline since the president killed Bin Laden. The fact that they intended to lie about this is bad enough, but when it had been debunked almost immediately, they doubled down and sent the Ambassador to the UN out with that story on all the friendly networks, plus Fox News, to very stridently insist that their story was true. Then, Obama stated it repeatedly in his address at the UN, two weeks after it was known to be a lie by anybody who gets their news from reliable sources. Obama and his assistant, Candy Crowley, made a lame attempt in the debates to pretend that this was not so.

Why did they do this? Because there was no excuse for letting this happen, and no other lie that could be sold to the public that was any better than the one they were already trying to sell. They made a political calculation that their media pals would downplay this and help them bait and switch their way through till after the election, when they could more easily stonewall the entire thing, a la "Fast and Furious." They wanted time and distance from the event and from the election to come up with and vet a new narrative.

None of their answers pass the smell test, and Hilary's snarly counterattack against Congress was ludicrous. You can't claim that you are too broke to properly secure a foreign diplomat, while pissing off billions in other areas, and providing Marines for security in other places. But, they know who their supporters are, and how much BS they have already bought into, and they don't care what the rest of us think or know, because they perceive us as being the minority, now.

What are they covering up? - The fact that they sent civilians into harm's way and then either ignored their requests for protection, both before the attack, and during it...or that they made a wildly incompetent and uninformed decision about how to rescue them. It will take more than an academy award winning performance by Hilary to dispel doubt in this matter, or at least it would, if her questioners were up to the chore. I rate them as being not much more upstanding than her.

[tennmike]

But if it's IR that's only the case if your target also has nv capabilities isn't it? While not impossible, not likely the attackers were nv equipped. The point though is that IR is used for more than designating targets for air strikes so the use of IR is not sufficient evidence for the presence of air support. Maybe someone who actually has experience in night combat ops can chime in.

One more time in case you didn't understand it. A laser designator is a pulsed code laser invisible to the naked eye. Infrared designators are quite visible to the naked eye and are used mostly for providing light for the night vision optics so the targets can be engaged.

[alphasigmookie]

An IR designator has one purpose. That is to paint a target for a strike. The entire time this attack was going on, these men were begging for support that was never called in.

Then why is the civillian market flooded with IR illuminators to be used with NV devices? Civilians can't call in air strikes.

http://www.adorama.com/NDIRK3SL.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/atn45sulorai.html

http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-...d-illuminator/

From the advertizement:

No matter the generation of your night vision scope or night vision goggles - Gen1+, 2+, 3 or digital - adding an infrared spotlight will deliver astounding results.

The reasons for this are clear - while most night vision devices are built with integrated infrared illuminators, these little lights were never designed for anything more than helping soldiers read their maps. For longer range illumination, you need massive candlepower - and that's where our night vision spotlights come in.

Add one of our 2-Million Candlepower Infrared Spotlights to your night vision kit and expect to double or triple the range of your night vision scope, night vision goggles, or digital night vision device. The most common comment we hear from our customers is, "this is the best night vision accessory I've ever bought!"

And for those applications where it's important that your night vision lighting remain invisible (even when staring straight into it from a few feet away) our line of ultra-covert IR-ROOM, IR-SPOT and IR-FLOOD illuminators are your only choice. For perimeter security applications, you can "paint" every critical sector of your surveillance area with undetectable IR lighting. If you've deployed advanced night vision surveillance cameras, these are the lights you need.

http://www.nightvisionexperts.com/sn...-lighting.html

I guess all these companies could be full of crap though and selling a bunch of BS.

[alphasigmookie]

One more time in case you didn't understand it. A laser designator is a pulsed code laser invisible to the naked eye. Infrared designators are quite visible to the naked eye and are used mostly for providing light for the night vision optics so the targets can be engaged.

Mike here is the direct quote from the "expert" quoted by Fox News suggesting the seals were trying to call in an air strike. Not sure where any of them got their information that any sort of beam or designator was used and what type it might have been:

"For all those veterans out there, you know that infrared discipline in combat is just as important as light and noise discipline," Cotton said on Hugh Hewitt's radio show. "You don’t use an infrared illuminator until you’re ready for fire support," he added, arguing that Woods "would not have illuminated that mortar team unless he expected air fire immediately as soon as he did so.”

“I strongly suspect there was an armed drone, or even a Specter gunship overhead that did not fire, even though Tyrone Woods expected it to," Cotton concluded.

Is it possible that the seals were using IR to see them on night vision and engage them with sniper or machine gun fire rather than using a laser designator to call in an air strike especially given that at least the official story is that there was no air support available?

[SirGeorgeKillian]

Stop, reread what I said.

IR DESIGNATOR.

Show me one for sale to the civilian market. Any inferred light will show up on NVGs. Even your remote control you turn your TV on with.

I will say this again.

A IR designator has one use. Calling in support.

[SirGeorgeKillian]

In case you are still confused here is what I am talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_designator

Here is what you are talking about
http://www.webcamproshop.com/IR-Illuminators-s/4.htm


Please note the differences

[alphasigmookie]

Stop, reread what I said.

IR DESIGNATOR.

Stop, read what the quoted source said! He uses the words "infrared illuminator". Understand my questioning his argument now?

[SirGeorgeKillian]

No I don't. From the link I posted.

Tyrone Woods, one of the former Navy SEALS killed in the battle, "used a ground laser designator to illuminate an enemy mortar team," noted Tom Cotton, a Harvard law graduate, Iraq war veteran and now a GOP congressional candidate.

He was painting it for support. Not illuminating it for him to see. If he was painting it, he could see it. The backup that never came could not. Notice the word designator...

[alphasigmookie]

No I don't. From the link I posted.

Tyrone Woods, one of the former Navy SEALS killed in the battle, "used a ground laser designator to illuminate an enemy mortar team," noted Tom Cotton, a Harvard law graduate, Iraq war veteran and now a GOP congressional candidate.

He was painting it for support. Not illuminating it for him to see. If he was painting it, he could see it. The backup that never came could not. Notice the word designator...

Here is the problem, this was the next 2 sentences:

"For all those veterans out there, you know that infrared discipline in combat is just as important as light and noise discipline," Cotton said on Hugh Hewitt's radio show. "You don’t use an infrared illuminator until you’re ready for fire support," he added, arguing that Woods "would not have illuminated that mortar team unless he expected air fire immediately as soon as he did so.”

“I strongly suspect there was an armed drone, or even a Specter gunship overhead that did not fire, even though Tyrone Woods expected it to," Cotton concluded.

Which was it? Was he using a laser designator to call for air support or was he using an IR illuminator to see the mortar team to fire upon them? Would they both show up the same on the video feed from the drone operating overhead (probably the only evidence that either was used)? Which of these two devices is a CIA team most likely to have in their kit?

[shootbrownelk]

The buzz is Joe Biden is making plans to run...............he would be easier to defeat than the Witch.

Chief, now that's really scary! "Crazy Uncle" Joe Biden as commander-in-chief....and Chuckie Schumer as vice-president!