Lethal Devices question, i.e. bludgeon tools

[5280 shooter II]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to ask your opinion about such tools as the PR 24 Baton, and the ASP telescoping Baton. I've been "informed" by local LEO that these are considered "lethal devices" and are unlawful for "civilians" to own or carry. These particular items can be purchased at a gunshow, online, or military surplus store and do not require form 4473.

I understand that if used "improperly" they can be lethal, but so can an aluminum softball bat or a fishing "priest".

If used properly, they can be a non-lethal use of protection, but woe to the civil lawsuit from the surviving perpetrator or family of say an unleashed animal that bites you while in performance of your duties around their property. Can criminal charges of assault be brought upon you if you employ said devices in the use of self-defense?

Edit: Please keep it to the aforementioned items and let's leave the pepper/mace sprays out of it for now, thank you.

[Jayhawker]

Gentlemen,

Can criminal charges of assault be brought upon you if you employ said devices in the use of self-defense?

Damn right you can! depending, of course ,on the state in which you live...there are states in which carrying an ASP will sent you right straight to jail...kinda strange though...assuming your have the appropriate permit, you can carry and use a firearm, but don't you dare whale on the bad guy with a stick...

You need to check out the laws for the state in which you reside in regards to clubs, knives, etc...

[gunrunner428]

A lot of it depends on local or state laws.

Morally, is there any difference defending yourself with a PR-24, an old-fashioned nightstick, the butt end of a 4-D Maglite, or the tire iron from the trunk of your car?

Legally, however, is a whole nuther ball game. Some areas might frown heavily on some instruments, unless you have a bona-fide reason for such gear. I think of the "tire whackers" truck drivers have been known to carry, essentially clubs by any other name, to check the air pressure in their tires.

In Michigan, when I worked as uniformed private security, "impact weapons" such as nightsticks or collapsible batons were only allowed for sworn peace keepers, which is why the whole guard force, nearly universally, carried the largest (3-D cell) Maglite, Kellight, or Streamlight allowed, since a flashlight was permitted, up to a certain size.

Laws were rewritten shortly before I left the profession allowing security officers to carry collapsible or solid batons and nightsticks. And leaded "saps", weighted gloves, brass knuckles, and other such goodies were still verboten.

[5280 shooter II]

Gunrunner,

You bring up a couple of examples I draw from. A former fellow technician took to carrying an ASP to use as an "compact yet extendable stick" to retrieve traps from out-of-reach places like from under refrigerant coolers....I used the flexible "grasper wand". Self defense wasn't even a consideration for him, it was just a monkey using a stick per se.

When on "peace-keeping" check-points in Macendonia (Army), I myself and others carried a 3-D cell Maglite to be used like a Kubaton for personnel take-down (insert between legs from behind, twist to horizontal, lift and pull while shoving the upper torso forward = faceplant.....taught to us by the MPs). But that was a specified and hazardous duty deployment.

Strike weapons still are verboten.....like said, with proper employment, there are "holds" that can be used to pacify.......but with a freaked-out Fido.....sometimes you might have to beat its jaws off your leg.

However let's keep it towards self-defense for now.

[shush]

Gentlemen,

That rules me out

[Teach]

Back when I was truck driving, a "super trucker" carried his tire thumper behind his zipper!
Jerry

[bullsi1911]

It depends on the state and locality. I know that some states, when you get a CCW, it gives you the ability to carry 'weapons'- including clubs and saps. Here in Texas, that is NOT true. A 'CHL' only gives you the ability to carry a handgun... clubs, saps, etc. will get you jailtime.

I also know that there has been case law that while it is perfectly legal to have a big ol' combination wrench in your car... but, you add a lanyard to that wrench, it is now a club and it will get you in trouble.

As for owning a stick or PR-24- I can't see that it would be illegal to OWN, just illegal to carry.

[Fat Billy]

It is a softball bat untill used. Then it could be a dirtbag bat. Use an aluminium bat because blood is easy to wipe off and teeth don't become imbedded when used and leave incriminating evidence. A clean bat is a happy bat. Honest officer, I hurt my knee at the ball park and was using the bat as a walking stick when this dirtbag walked up .............! Just saying. Later,

[tennmike]

Going by state laws, they are all over the place on legality of batons and ASP batons. In TN you'd be in trouble. However, I knew an old feller that frequented the local stock barn that had a walking cane fashioned from a hickory hoe handle with a rather 'pointy' metal tip at the bottom, and a chromed 16 oz. straight claw hammer head on top. He was never questioned by the 'authorities' about this walking cane as far as I know. I DO know that he raised a pop knot on a feller's head that tried to relieve him of his wallet once. I heard that the deputy on scene thought it was pretty fair since the bad guy had a knife; no charges filed against the old feller. But I do live in SE TN and such things generally pass without much notice.

Back in the early part of the last century, the nattily dressed 'man about town' carried a walking cane. Didn't necessarily need it for help walking, but found it useful for 2 and 4 legged critters intent on doing harm. Maybe this old custom should make a comeback. Not the sword canes, but the good old fashioned heavy walking sticks with a substantial head on them, and a pointy metal tip. Might make society a bit more polite.

[shush]

Back in the early part of the last century, the nattily dressed 'man about town' carried a walking cane.

I think they may have needed them too.

[bruchi]

The baton? Officer, I took that away from him...he repeatedly hit himself with it and I had to stop him from hurting himself anymore.

[Fat Billy]

Carry a garden hoe. Ancient Monks in China were not allowed to carry weapons but many on the tools for working the land were designed to be a weapon when needed. If you decide to carry a hammer make it a framing hammer because the nail removing prongs are straight and make a great head impailing axe. Wait a minuet I could invent a covert tool belt so a person can travel with the hammer concealed. A suppressor could be a rag to put in the offenders mouth to keep them quiet. Man I'm smarter than I look. LOL Later,

[NN]

I think they may have needed them too.

A sword in it, too.

[Uncle Fester]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to ask your opinion about such tools as the PR 24 Baton, and the ASP telescoping Baton. I've been "informed" by local LEO that these are considered "lethal devices" and are unlawful for "civilians" to own or carry. These particular items can be purchased at a gunshow, online, or military surplus store and do not require form 4473.

I understand that if used "improperly" they can be lethal, but so can an aluminum softball bat or a fishing "priest".

If used properly, they can be a non-lethal use of protection, but woe to the civil lawsuit from the surviving perpetrator or family of say an unleashed animal that bites you while in performance of your duties around their property. Can criminal charges of assault be brought upon you if you employ said devices in the use of self-defense?

Edit: Please keep it to the aforementioned items and let's leave the pepper/mace sprays out of it for now, thank you.

Remember, you face potential criminal AND civil liability. While it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, you need to be cognizant of all your choices and how you mitigate risks with choices.

example: you shoot someone with a Colt Python, the jury might think you are aggressive. Use a a Model 19, not as much.

If you have a hammer in your car, no problem. If you have a club, you might have a problem. Do you really need that club?

[cpj]

I've been thinking about an asp or similar for carry while riding my bike. Would be perfect for Fidos head when he chases me.
However, having shouted very loudly at an advancing mutt "if you bite me I swear to God I'll beat you to death with my bare hands" while his owner was in the front yard....it did prevent further advances. At least at one house.

[Uncle Fester]

I've been thinking about an asp or similar for carry while riding my bike. Would be perfect for Fidos head when he chases me.
However, having shouted very loudly at an advancing mutt "if you bite me I swear to God I'll beat you to death with my bare hands" while his owner was in the front yard....it did prevent further advances. At least at one house.

I used to carry diluted tobasco sauce in my water bottle to discourage dogs.

[5280 shooter II]

Carry a garden hoe. Ancient Monks in China were not allowed to carry weapons but many on the tools for working the land were designed to be a weapon when needed.

Hmmmmm...............might have to develop a wheat scythe with a "tactical" telescoping handle........

"Oh dear, there's a Mr. Grim at the door..........something about the reaping?"...

[breamfisher]

Carry a kaiser blade. Some folks call it a sling blade.

[tennmike]

I've been thinking about an asp or similar for carry while riding my bike. Would be perfect for Fidos head when he chases me.
However, having shouted very loudly at an advancing mutt "if you bite me I swear to God I'll beat you to death with my bare hands" while his owner was in the front yard....it did prevent further advances. At least at one house.

I have had favorable responses from such dogs when a piece of 3/4" Sch. 40 PVC pipe is forcefully applied to their heads. Carrying such a piece of pipe 3-4 ft in length on a bike should not present insurmountable problems. I keep a 6 ft length of that pipe next to the front porch door; remember that F=m x v.

[5280 shooter II]

Carry a kaiser blade. Some folks call it a sling blade.

I DO enjoy some French Fried pertaters...uhhhm, uhhh

[5280 shooter II]

I have had favorable responses from such dogs when a piece of 3/4" Sch. 40 PVC pipe is forcefully applied to their heads. Carrying such a piece of pipe 3-4 ft in length on a bike should not present insurmountable problems. I keep a 6 ft length of that pipe next to the front porch door; remember that F=m x v.

Meh...shoot first and teach em a real lesson....."you just shot my dog!" "well it weren't on a leash an it was attackin' me, thought is was a ca-yote" "my dog don't look like a ca-yote!" "well it was nipping at me going down the road, you don'n want yer dog shot, control it...now it's been controlled....y'all want me to press charges for your dog assaulting me on a public thoroughfare!?"

[Jayhawker]

Meh...shoot first and teach em a real lesson....."you just shot my dog!" "well it weren't on a leash an it was attackin' me, thought is was a ca-yote" "my dog don't look like a ca-yote!" "well it was nipping at me going down the road, you don'n want yer dog shot, control it...now it's been controlled....y'all want me to press charges for your dog assaulting me on a public thoroughfare!?"

The kind of flip response that can get a new shooter into some trouble....I know of a guy who did similar and spent two years in prison and another three on probabtion....the "discharging a firearm in city limits and felony cruelty to animals" charges assured he would never legally own a firearm again....

[Varmintmist]

M-34
http://www.simsupply.com/p-167022-20...handle-34.aspx

[Fat Billy]

The good old military folding shovel is one of the best for installing bad hurt on a dirtbag. Really Officer I was trying dig what this guy was saying but it got out of hand. Opps! Later,

[KSU Firefighter]

Use a rolled up magazine, we use them for an emergency anchor point for "bailing out" of windows.

[bruchi]

I have had favorable responses from such dogs when a piece of 3/4" Sch. 40 PVC pipe is forcefully applied to their heads. Carrying such a piece of pipe 3-4 ft in length on a bike should not present insurmountable problems.

One could fill a shorter pipe with water, easier to manage while pedaling, claim you are too cheap to buy a canteen...

[Bakerman]

I've been thinking about an asp or similar for carry while riding my bike. Would be perfect for Fidos head when he chases me.
However, having shouted very loudly at an advancing mutt "if you bite me I swear to God I'll beat you to death with my bare hands" while his owner was in the front yard....it did prevent further advances. At least at one house.

Sprint training.............

[tennmike]

Back when I lived in a community outside Chattanooga, there was a golf course about a mile from my house. I'd ride my bicycle over there about once every other week and whack a bucket full of golf balls on the driving range. I didn't play golf, but found if I imagined my bosses face on the ball, it relieved some tension. I only carried one golf club on the bike because that's the only club I owned; a jumbo head driver. A few dogs along the route found out that a jumbo head driver swung like a polo mallet from a bike would cause them a great deal of pain. Once dealt with, they refrained from chasing me again and trying to grab my leg.