Milsurp/historical gun values

[alphasigmookie]

In case you guys haven't noticed I love old battle rifles. That said I have almost no idea what exactly makes one example worth significantly more than another. I get certain rare features and of course condition plays a role. I also get that bubbaing up an old rifle destroys a lot of it's value. Then it gets into some grey areas. Refinishing a rifle may destroy a lot or a little of the value, but if it's "restored" by a professional sometimes in can increase the value? Refinishing a stock in a non original finish will destroy some value and sanding is a no-no, but cleaning is usually ok, but sometimes frowned upon? My head is spinning.

In general I've left all my milsurps as received other than wiping off any cosmo they were shipped in. However, there are a few that I think could look a bit nicer with a bit of work, I just don't really want to hurt their value too much. What if anything do you guys do to maximize the looks of your old rifles without hurting their values? What do you look for when buying a milsurp and what do you avoid if possible?

Here is an example:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=326969004

I've been watching this 1903a3 on GB. Looking at the photos it looks like the stock has been sanded at some point and possibly refinished and at least the receiver looks like it has been blued (pretty sure it should be parkarized) and I don't think the letters on the serial number should be white. That said it looks pretty good and it's cheaper than most (at least for now)

Then there is this one:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=327343255

Which is in worse condition but looks like it probably hasn't been touched and is nearly twice the price (admittedly with no bids).

[wddodge]

Most collectors are looking for mil-surps that are in original condition. Taking them apart and cleaning the dirt/gunk/cosmo and shooting them will not hurt the value. What hurts is when a stock is sanded and refinished or the metal refinished, unless it's an arsenal rebuild. Drilling the reciever for scope mounts wil knock the value in half. Most of the serious collectors look for all the little stampings/cartouches. The factory the rifle was manufactured at, the accecptance stamps, inspector stamps all will add various amounts of value.

Especially on the Mauser rifles, beware of fake stampings. A few years back the "SS" stamps were bringing huge premiums. Then it seemed like every Mauser on the block had the "SS" stamps. When $$ are involved there will be shady smiths willing to fake cartouches.

I've got a couple of 91/30s that are arsenal rebuilds that I got for $90. The red shellac was flaking off and looked like hell so they got stripped, stained and an oil finish put on. Now they are at best $75 rifles. It doesn't matter much to me since I just shoot them but the purists think I'm a moron.

I guess the bottom line is, if it looks too good it's probably not worth it.

Denny

[Bigslug]

If downrange value and/or not getting robbed means anything to you, buy collectors guides to the rifles in question and educate yourself before you go shopping. That will help you spot the refinish jobs, replaced parts, arsenal rebuilds, etc...

I would strongly suggest you start HERE--> http://www.amazon.com/COLLECTABLE-03...9638231&sr=1-3
Harrison's format is to give each sub-variation of the gun in question its own page and data sheet. In his 1911 book, if Colt changed the font of lettering on the slide, it gets its own page; if the hammer shape changed, it gets it own page. You'll find a lot of good books on '03's out there, but this one is EXTREMELY cheap for the knowledge it contains - and ALL that knowledge is directed at the shopper.

If you want value retention AND pretty, there's really nothing for it but to find a clean original and cough up the necessary funds. The concern with such things is you don't want to take them out and shoot them. Like Indiana Jones' nemesis Belloch said, "We are merely passing through history. This IS history". They aren't making new ones, so there's a lot to be said for preserving the ever-decreasing number of ones that still look that way. Most of the serious collectors will have their amazingly clean museum pieces, and then they'll have their "less special" shooters. Usually the shooters are the guns they bought when they were just catching the bug. Not a bad way to roll.

White in the stampings is often chalk (sometimes paint) applied to highlight the serial numbers, proofmarks, etc. . . for easier viewing - especially when photos are to be taken. Fairly standard practice.

I don't know '03's as well as 1911's or Garands, but generally on WWII U.S. stuff, if ALL the Parkerizing on ALL the parts is the same color, you can be pretty sure the metal has been refinished. I've seen a couple of VERY clean Remington 03-A3's lately that were almost certainly all original and correct, and the small parts were dark grey/black while the barrel and receiver group were grey/green.

[alphasigmookie]

Yeah I'm sort of on the edge between just wanting a half decent shooter example of a bunch of different guns and trying to grab rifles that are truly collectible. With the latter approach I have just looked for the cheapest one I can find that's in decent shape and am done with it or in most cases just luck of the draw from C&R or CMP. If I start thinking collectible then I've got to worry about all sorts of other things.

Another random thought occurred to me while thinking about this stuff. It seems to me that most true collectors are baby boomers or even older. With most of them starting to retire and the normal decline in income that that implies, I wonder if the market for some of the collectible rifles might actually decline a fair amount? Most of the shooters my age seem to spend most of their cash on AR's and modern bolt guns and possibly a random Mosin or something. At the gunshows I see lots of old guys with tables full of high priced old guns, but I rarely see anyone looking at them, let alone buying them. Then again, maybe just wishful thinking.

[Big Al1]

My eye goes direct to the older guns!! I like the originality and history of the old classics. I have little interest in a lot of the newer stuff. Dents, dings and a little rust give them charactor, as long as they are shootable. I just wish I would of bought more of them 40 years ago when nobody wanted them and they were about $12.00 each!!

[alphasigmookie]

My eye goes direct to the older guns!! I like the originality and history of the old classics. I have little interest in a lot of the newer stuff. Dents, dings and a little rust give them charactor, as long as they are shootable. I just wish I would of bought more of them 40 years ago when nobody wanted them and they were about $12.00 each!!

Oh I love them too!



But part of what I love about them is that they're relatively inexpensive pieces of history that are a ton of fun to shoot. My most expensive one is my CMP garand I paid $500 for. I paid $300 each for my RC k98 and my Carl Gustov Swede (not pictured) and all the rest were under $200! Coming from this mindset it's hard to put down $1000+ for a "correct" 1903 or m1 carbine even though they might hold their value or appreciate more over time. I'd like to add to the collection but I'm getting to the point where the things left are either not terribly interesting to me (carcano's, MAS's, other mausers) or really expensive and highly dependent upon "collectible" features (lugers, broom handles, 1903's, m1's, krags).

[Teach]

If you can find one without a totally trashed barrel, a Krag would be a good addition to that collection. Corrosive ammo did most of them in.
Jerry

[alphasigmookie]

If you can find one without a totally trashed barrel, a Krag would be a good addition to that collection. Corrosive ammo did most of them in.
Jerry

Yeah most of the ones I come across have been sporterized, in terrible shape, or really expensive. Always on the lookout though.

[horselips]

If the weapon has been refinished by a government arsenal, value could be enhanced. I remember the batch of Fazakerly "Thorough Factory Repair" Enfields imported a few (a dozen?) years ago - their value was greatly increased. Similar work done by anybody else would have probably had the reverse effect. So, it's more 'who done it' than 'what was done.'

[Gene L]

The bottom metal also looks to be polished and blued. The white lettering is from rubbing chalk on the letters and then wiping it off; it's just to show the information for photographic purposes and isn't permanent. I think it's priced where it is now as a reflection of it being tampered with. As a shooter, it's probably OK, but not as a collector weapon.

[alphasigmookie]

The bottom metal also looks to be polished and blued. The white lettering is from rubbing chalk on the letters and then wiping it off; it's just to show the information for photographic purposes and isn't permanent. I think it's priced where it is now as a reflection of it being tampered with. As a shooter, it's probably OK, but not as a collector weapon.

thanks, that's what I thought but nice to get confirmation from someone who knows what to look for.

[Varmintmist]

Mainly with 03A3's you need to look at condition. Then you look for stuff like cartouches and if the receiver serno matches reasonably with the bbl date. The can be blued or parked and if they were reworked they might have both types of parts. That does not mean that they are worthless, it means that they have seen service. Not a big deal as a shooter. If you are looking for a pristine collector, then you need to match rcvr, bbl, stock type and all of marks on metal and wood to the right year and people. I didnt look hard at the 1000 dollar one but that might be what he has, or he just might like it a lot.

You can take a shooter, and not devalue it by refinishing it, as long as you dont get real rough with the wood. If you have cartouches, leave them. If you have a good shooter with beat wood, and you replace the wood with a as issued type stock, you should hold the value. You cant hurt a Mosin by refinishing it. They are butt ugly and the wood isnt pretty. You can only get away from the shellack and that won't hurt.

At this time a 500 dollar 03A3 is not at all out of line as a shooter.

As to Krags, it depends on what you consider expensive. Last one I saw for sale was nice, not pristine, and 1300.00, which is a fair price today.

Relooking at the 1K 03a3, he is stoned. Its a rework, it will only be worth 1000 if he finds someone who doesnt know what he is buying.

[ilove22s]

Collecting Milsurp is like collecting anything else. Cars, woman, planes or trains. It all depends on what you want to do with them.

Some people prefer to leave things as-is. Some people don’t. What it comes down to is what do you want out of this hobby. Do you want $$$? Do you want fun? Do you want to learn? Do you want everything?

If you want to buy Milsurp and shoot them, sometimes its possible. If you want to take them and make them new, then do it. But be aware that you may loose your $$$ in doing so. You should be well aware that putting $$$ into a gun to “customize” it to be yours or whatever, is rarely profitable when you decide sell. Yes, you will get your fun and maybe some $$ out of it, but rarely the full amount you invested. When you make your milsurp “NIB” it can be the same. About the only way you can make the $$$ is to find someone that wants it that way and has the ability to pay what you have in it. Then theres the flip side that some collectors wont look at it knowing its been modified even with your good intentions. In the end you are taking a chance, so just be aware and go from there.

Ive bought several guns worth more then 1k due to the amount of work put into them and paid < 1k since that work was not worth it to anyone but the previous owner. I new what was done and I knew what a good deal it was. IF it was > 1k for the price, I would have walked away since the gun wasn’t worth it to me.

Just a comment. Many people feel that if something doesn’t look “NEW” its not worth anything. You have to look at it case by case. IMO, having a milsrup in as-is condition is more valuable then having it look NIB. But that’s just me and YMMV.

[snake284-1]

In case you guys haven't noticed I love old battle rifles. That said I have almost no idea what exactly makes one example worth significantly more than another. I get certain rare features and of course condition plays a role. I also get that bubbaing up an old rifle destroys a lot of it's value. Then it gets into some grey areas. Refinishing a rifle may destroy a lot or a little of the value, but if it's "restored" by a professional sometimes in can increase the value? Refinishing a stock in a non original finish will destroy some value and sanding is a no-no, but cleaning is usually ok, but sometimes frowned upon? My head is spinning.

In general I've left all my milsurps as received other than wiping off any cosmo they were shipped in. However, there are a few that I think could look a bit nicer with a bit of work, I just don't really want to hurt their value too much. What if anything do you guys do to maximize the looks of your old rifles without hurting their values? What do you look for when buying a milsurp and what do you avoid if possible?

Here is an example:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=326969004

I've been watching this 1903a3 on GB. Looking at the photos it looks like the stock has been sanded at some point and possibly refinished and at least the receiver looks like it has been blued (pretty sure it should be parkarized) and I don't think the letters on the serial number should be white. That said it looks pretty good and it's cheaper than most (at least for now)

Then there is this one:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=327343255

Which is in worse condition but looks like it probably hasn't been touched and is nearly twice the price (admittedly with no bids).

I've made this statement on here before but nobody comments on it that I know of. Back in the 80s and 90s it was said that if a factory rep or in the case of a mil surp an arsenal, restores a rifle or any gun, then it doesn't lose value. AND I can accept that if a real well known firm refinishes an antique or old firearm, it may even gain value. But if bubba or even a competant gun smith does the restoration it will lose some value. I'm no expert, but that's what I have been told many times over.

[snake284-1]

Most collectors are looking for mil-surps that are in original condition. Taking them apart and cleaning the dirt/gunk/cosmo and shooting them will not hurt the value. What hurts is when a stock is sanded and refinished or the metal refinished, unless it's an arsenal rebuild. Drilling the reciever for scope mounts wil knock the value in half. Most of the serious collectors look for all the little stampings/cartouches. The factory the rifle was manufactured at, the accecptance stamps, inspector stamps all will add various amounts of value.

Especially on the Mauser rifles, beware of fake stampings. A few years back the "SS" stamps were bringing huge premiums. Then it seemed like every Mauser on the block had the "SS" stamps. When $$ are involved there will be shady smiths willing to fake cartouches.

I've got a couple of 91/30s that are arsenal rebuilds that I got for $90. The red shellac was flaking off and looked like hell so they got stripped, stained and an oil finish put on. Now they are at best $75 rifles. It doesn't matter much to me since I just shoot them but the purists think I'm a moron.

I guess the bottom line is, if it looks too good it's probably not worth it.

Denny

I have a Remington 03-A3 that had been a VFW Parade gun. It had been stripped and varnished. It looked like hell, so I figured that what ever value the wood refinishing would subtract had already been subtracted. So I sanded it down and did a Boiled Linseed Oil finish. Damn thing looks like a million bucks now, but I guess the purist would throw it in the trash.

[Gene L]

Look at the prices of Mitchell Mausers as opposed to original non modified Mausers. Mitchells look good, but they aren't priced at 1/3 the value of originals. I don't know how the bores look on these Mitchells, but they're like buying borrowed history, IMO, if you're buying for authenticity.

[kjohn]

Just a comment. Many people feel that if something doesn’t look “NEW” its not worth anything. You have to look at it case by case. IMO, having a milsrup in as-is condition is more valuable then having it look NIB. But that’s just me and YMMV.
I have prime example of such a beast in my collection. A SAT barrelled M91 Mosin Nagant that came to me years ago. While some military surplus collectors might recognize it, most non-milsurp people would feel sorry for me because I got duped. The poor old thing definitely looks its age!

[Big Chief]

The far left pic an M-95 Steyr? Sure has a pretty stock on it, refinished? I have one from Austria and one from Budapest.

I have a few MILSURPS with all matching SN#, some with everything matching except the mag floor-plate or butt metal butt plate was forced matched. When offered, I always pay a few bucks more for Hand Picked. That varies on exactly what you end up with depending on where I order it from.

It does look like mostly the bottom of the barrel is about all that is available lately on the Internet joints offering C&R MILSURP guns.

[Varmintmist]

I've made this statement on here before but nobody comments on it that I know of. Back in the 80s and 90s it was said that if a factory rep or in the case of a mil surp an arsenal, restores a rifle or any gun, then it doesn't lose value. AND I can accept that if a real well known firm refinishes an antique or old firearm, it may even gain value. But if bubba or even a competant gun smith does the restoration it will lose some value. I'm no expert, but that's what I have been told many times over.

Not entirely true. For example, Krags were stripped at the arsenal and the stocks were scraped removing the cartouches and many had the sights changed. They are 100% correct Krags, but they are valued less than ones that made it through without the treatment by about 20% because although they are correct, they are not original. Another example, I have a few 03's, I have one that is original. The others are 5-650 rifles, the original (bbl date, cartouches, stock, rcvr, metal all match and are correct for the dates of rcvr and bbl, bore looks rough though I used it for live turkey shoots and took a lot of birds with it) I would guess be worth in the 900+ range. I havent seen one for sale so I really dont know wher it would be and it doesnt matter because it isnt going anywhere.

[alphasigmookie]

The far left pic an M-95 Steyr? Sure has a pretty stock on it, refinished? I have one from Austria and one from Budapest.

Yep, Hungarian. Not sure if refinished. Came that way caked in cosmo from the C&R dealer (forget which one I ordered from), so probably not, but it's possible.