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Thread: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

  1. #1

    Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    2012 Deer season brings a new shell casing. I dont know what it could be.
    1.8 in. / stright brass. No smaller then a .357 . What gun and cal. can this be?

  2. #2
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    I don't understand the question. Could you elaborate, please?

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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    I don't know, but currently 2011 - 2012 season allows rifle case max length to be 1.625, .375 min. bullet diam. 1.16" min. length. Handgun cartridges must be at least 1.16" minimum length, but don't list max length, but allow .243" diam bullets or larger. Seems like you can use any cartridge that falls into these dimensions, for now. If they are changing the max length of rifle cartridges, looks like they'll allow any that is at least .357" bullet diam, but no longer than 1.8" long. They don't go into specific cartridges, so you'll have to look at some reloading manuals to see how many fit those specs.
    I think you're looking for a rifle cartridge that has a cartridge length between 1.625" - 1.8" long in at least a .357" diam bullet. (I think you're saying it has to be straight walled?) It looks like they really don't want you using rifle cartridges in a rifle, just basically pistol type cartridges, but it looks like they allow rifle cartridges in their handguns, since the min. cal. is .243 and they don't have a max length? HMMMMMM?


    Tom
    Last edited by U T; 09-29-2011 at 01:58 PM.

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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    Indiana is a bit stoopid when it comes to their cartridge laws. It does NOT have to be straight-walled, just within the min/max length throwing a bullet of the appropriate diameter. The new regs for NEXT year stretch the case length from 1.625 inches to 1.8 inches, but I'm not sure what new rounds this might include, as this is the current listing for potential legal cartridges, copied directly from http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files...rhuntguide.pdf -

    Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet
    of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
    minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
    have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
    are legal to use only during the deer firearm
    season. Some cartridges legal for deer
    hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40
    Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44
    Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester,
    .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475
    Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express,
    and .500 S&W.

    One gun shop conversation I had revealed that some guys in our region (north-central Indiana) are using a wildcat based on one or another of the uber-short magnums, necked out to take a .358 bullet. Far cry from using .357, but COMPLETELY LEGAL. And this for regs and a state that disallows such rounds as .444 Marlin, .45/70, .30-30, and any of the typical 30-06/.308/"traditional" belted magnum rounds for deer.

    I at first though the new length is intended to allow such rounds as .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, or the .500 S&W, but the above list as applied to the 2011 deer season includes those rounds already. Handguns, however, allow anything over .243 diameter, out of a case "longer than 1.16 inches" - no maximum length for handguns apparently, so a .45/70 T/C Contender is legal, where a .45/70 Sharps is not... go figure - and a .327 Federal Magnum should, apparently, be legal, as long as the barrel is 4" or more.

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    Senior Member Jermanator's Avatar
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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by gunrunner428 View Post
    Indiana is a bit stoopid when it comes to their cartridge laws. It does NOT have to be straight-walled, just within the min/max length throwing a bullet of the appropriate diameter. The new regs for NEXT year stretch the case length from 1.625 inches to 1.8 inches, but I'm not sure what new rounds this might include, as this is the current listing for potential legal cartridges, copied directly from http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files...rhuntguide.pdf -

    Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet
    of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
    minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
    have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
    are legal to use only during the deer firearm
    season. Some cartridges legal for deer
    hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40
    Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44
    Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester,
    .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475
    Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express,
    and .500 S&W.

    One gun shop conversation I had revealed that some guys in our region (north-central Indiana) are using a wildcat based on one or another of the uber-short magnums, necked out to take a .358 bullet. Far cry from using .357, but COMPLETELY LEGAL. And this for regs and a state that disallows such rounds as .444 Marlin, .45/70, .30-30, and any of the typical 30-06/.308/"traditional" belted magnum rounds for deer.

    I at first though the new length is intended to allow such rounds as .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, or the .500 S&W, but the above list as applied to the 2011 deer season includes those rounds already. Handguns, however, allow anything over .243 diameter, out of a case "longer than 1.16 inches" - no maximum length for handguns apparently, so a .45/70 T/C Contender is legal, where a .45/70 Sharps is not... go figure - and a .327 Federal Magnum should, apparently, be legal, as long as the barrel is 4" or more.
    .460 S&W would fit the bill as well. Maybe some day we will have the .452 Jermanator chambered in rifles (designed to fit in those parameters while working in a standard bolt rifle) in the next year or so. It is supposed to launch a 200gr .452" bullet at about 2300-2400 fps.

  6. #6
    Senior Member MileHighShooter's Avatar
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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    gunrunner,

    It goes by several different names, depending on the exact dimensions. But basically it is a 358 wssm. There is also someone who made a 325 WSSM called the 325 Corbin. The 358 version puts performance on par with the 358 win since the WSSM's have just a bit less capacity then 30-06 based cartridges, but usually operate at higher pressures. Nifty little guns.


    http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358BFG.html
    Last edited by MileHighShooter; 09-29-2011 at 06:03 PM.
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    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.

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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    Thanks MHS - I hadn't taken time to research the info, I had assumed it was a pure wildcat option. Looks like it's been somewhat standardized for dies, brass, chambering, etc. It makes more sense as I think about it, although it IS an answer to backwards-thinking regulations. If it is a performance sister of the .358 Win, then allow .358 Win.

    Sometimes the lawmakers go down a path that makes me scratch my head and wonder... but that's nothin' new.

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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    I just heard of the new law that just passed for indiana hunting next year. When told of the 1.8 max I happened to be looking at a bushmaster 450 that shoots a shell casing of exactly 1.8 in. Has anyone ever deer hunted with this AR-15 style gun? I have only hunted with a 12g shotgun and .50 muzzleloader. I have always wanted an ar-15 but couldnt see spending the money for it to sit in my gun cabinet. Now that I could hunt with it as well as shoot for the fun, its reasonable. I just dont know a whole lot about them so I am curious if it would be a good option to deer hunt with. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

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    Re: Indiana 2012 Deer hunting

    Welcome Carter. I have not but would not be opposed to it. Seems to be getting more popular these days. I just like my bolt guns. Some are quite accurate.

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    Several options......new ones up and coming all the time.

    Yeah yeah, old post. Sorry.

    In my area of interest enough to get me to join the site and the conversation.

    The 358 Or 35 Grant (not sure which name it is for sure but easily found) is the wizzbang of maximum velocities if one has the desire from what Ive seen. A 1.8 inch version of the previous 1.625 based on the WSSM brass.
    Some are pushing the envelope in it getting velocities near the 350 Rem Mag and 35 Whelen....some saying above that.

    A wildcat has been something I always thought that would be cool to do.......so I did.

    Being in my "later years" and facing retirement soon I wanted not only "my own" round, I wanted it in the rifle model Ive loved some 4 decades, and have bought, shot, swapped and sold more 700 Remingtons than most 10 hunters. LOL.

    So I started out with wanting to create something in a round UNlike everyone else's AND available without killing my budget for the entirety of retirement both building and loading for it.......in a 700 Remington. Picky ol fart, eh?

    It has an ETA in about two weeks. Reamer took a bit. Seems PT&G is BUSY!!!! this time of year! So more later if there is an interest but I'm forming brass and have checked capacity with h2o.

    With the .358 Winchester used for and quite capable of handling any of the deer species (even the big ones) and lots using them for bear too, matching or besting that round was more than adequate for my uses and will shoot further with adequate energy left than I'll ever put it through.

    With a case capacity of new, formed and trimmed brass of 58.7 grains the capacity has fell right where expected and happily so. Fired, neck sized rounds is expected to give me a tad more room, but again, I can't see needing it.

    One of the things I "discovered" in this project that for ranges to 250 yards, even 300 yards a 100-200 fps ( at certain points) difference in two loads with the same bullet don't result in very much of a trajectory difference and with 99 percent of MY shots in the past showing a 175 yards as a LONG shot...packing the round up to max on every load just isnt warranted, but is ONLY my opinion for MY uses. Going the distance to get the biggest, fastest going certainly is an enjoyable task and , as in all choices, up to the person paying the bill and his or her uses.

    Unwilling to pay for a rebarreling, unless unavoidable, the project started out looking at 700 Remingtons in a 35 cal and the only round making any sense at all was the 350 Remington magnum with a starting/parent case capacity of 73 grains that would leave me amble capacity for a legal Indiana round with capabilities at or beyond my needs and is also in a short action. The fact that it's a Remington round.....mighta had a bearing on my decision. hehe

    A simple set back and rechamber of the factory barrel to a .375 inch shortened case was not cost prohibitive and the brass is formed using a 350 Rem mag trim die and shortening it as well. Same for the FL die.

    The neck size die will get a bit more attention. My gunsmith has it in hand to SLIGHTLY alter in honing, if needed and of course, also trimmed shorter to match the case length. Depending on how well that works out, I may or may not order a Lee collet die for the round by sending a couple fired brass and a couple bullets to Lee. They have a very reasonable service to do just that. 65 dollars if I recall but the altered neck die will suffice for awhile and urgency to get the Lee dies wont be big, not this close to season. The altering of factory dies was very very minimal in cost. Another plus IMHO.

    The easiest brass I've to make the 350 JR with is the parent round brass, the 350 Rem Mag. All said and done the neck wall thickness is still .011 or so, without any efforts from yours truly. Forming and trimming one takes all of about a minute.

    Forming from 7mm Rem mag brass (or any cut off belted mag round) leaves a neck wall of .015 and up, needing turned or reamed, but not a big deal if one would go that way. Having ample 350 RM brass on hand.....I wont need it for sometime but will do so later on just to compare cases and brass.

    I DID find that W-W brass requires a larger press than what I have, forming VERY hard by comparison, even at the same wall thickness. The RCBS JR press isnt big but makes forming the round with 350 mag brass (an all Remington brass tried) a breeze. Not so with Winchester brass. Point is, literally any belted mag brass will work. Some just take an extra step of turning the neck or reaming. This was also part of the original thought process. Accessable and reasonable brass. 1x fired belted mag brass seems to be sold about everywhere in the forums. I paid about 25 dollars a hundred, shipped, for a batch of half new, half 1x fired brass I can use.

    Most are looking for the Indiana legal round that gives them the most velocity. Me.....Im old. More than adequate and kicking less than what the ultimate rounds would have to, I'm good with one just matching the 358 Win.....and low cost.

    NO intensions of saying "mine is better"......this is just what one old fart did to fit the bill hunting deer here in IN. Maybe it will inspire others to "roll their own" making it truly "their" round.....custom made by themselves for their use and budget.

    It's been a hoot and more to come yet! Working up accurate loads and picking bullets and powders took on a new meaning for me with this wildcat.

    Look out deer! I'm coming armed to the teeth this year!

    God Bless
    Steve

    Photo shows a round next to the 350 Rem Mag parent round. Bullet is the 220 Gr Speer.

    Last edited by 350JR; 09-20-2012 at 07:30 PM.

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    Re: Several options......new ones up and coming all the time.

    350JR,
    thanks for sharing your adventure in wildcating.Sounds like an interesting cartridge.

    Sako

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    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Several options......new ones up and coming all the time.

    Looks mean. In a Carney sort of way.
    Last edited by Zee; 09-17-2012 at 10:57 PM.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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    Re: Several options......new ones up and coming all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post
    Looks mean. In a Carney sort of way.
    LOL! I guess that does appear a little odd, compared to "normal rounds".

    I got a little OT from the original question. My apologies. Im a bit excited about all this, and heck, the rifle isnt even here yet.

    I even upgraded the excellent stock that was on it and bought a second 350 Rem 700 Classic strictly due to the wood grain on it and Im going to swap stocks when the original gets here. Not sure what exactly yet Ill do with the second one.
    Being a woodpecker in rifle stocks, loving high grain versions, I couldnt help it. Kinda shot my "low cost" idea a bit but the extra will be movable.

    Concerning the original question, I really think the 460 S&W in a Ruger #1 would be a winner. I almost went that route before figuring out I could build a wildcat in a bolt gun for less money......and a whale of a bunch more fun, OTHER THAN the waiting. ARghhhhh! Old people are supposed to be more patient. I havent perfected that just yet.

    For ranges here in IN. the 460 Smith/Wesson would do it all and then some with stellar knock down performance, going by its rep in a handgun. I compared velocities in such out of a rifle. It picks up a pretty good margin of speed that seemed for that round and bullet choices made more of a difference than I would have expected.

    All the rounds, now legal for deer hunting in a long gun here in IN are more than capable of providing more than ample energy out to ranges pretty tough to get shots at, at least in my neck of the woods.

    Rifle hunting here is "catching on" quite rapidly, even in lue of the fact that one can't just pick up an average deer round/ gun combo and set it up as you would in most western states. While only 9 percent of the over all total of the deer taken were done so with a rifle in 2011, keep in mind that this (2012) will be only the 5th year we've been able to hunt with any kind of rifle, other than muzzleloaders..........ever.

    Yep, the laws for deer here in IN seem a bit "contradictive" since any 243 bore round and up (no upper limit) can be used in a handgun AND in rifles.......during crop depredation hunts. During such hunts meant to reduce numbers in certain areas, I can legally hunt with a 338 Lapua if I so chose. .....so even those of us living and hunting here have varied ideas/opinions on the "how come" thoughts that go with all that. Same goes for varmints / predators, hunting the exact same areas. You just cant use them during deer firearm season.

    With my lifetime hunting license purchased in 1987, I can legally take a buck and 8 does in my county. Another 8 does in most counties around me. Four of which can be taken in our first time for 2012, antlerless firearm season from Dec 26 to the first sunday in Jan.

    No, never fear, I wont go kill crazy and try to see how many I CAN take, but neither will I run out of tags ending the season short.

    If I get off my arse, I'll have hundreds of hours in the field "testing" the 350JR. I've a few asking me for results for thoughts of such for themselves sometime in the future.

    Hunting brother to hunting brother..........I cannot do less than do that for anyone asking.

    Initially, I will be testing/using Varget, IMR 4064, IMR 8208 XBR, and some TAC behind 220 Gr Speers, Sierra GK 225 gr and hopefully some Nosler Partition, also 225 grain. Ballistics gave a huge nod to the 225 grain bullets with more retained energy and little difference in trajectory compared to lighter/faster bullets once longer shot possibilities were considered (going by the trajectory calculators and bullet BC ratings). Real life experiences will be an added plus, as always when creating loads.

    Heck, for the first time in my life , I even bought a chronograph just for curiousity sake. As said, ranges shot here, I rather doubt this ol timer will be able to tell much difference.


    God Bless and good luck to all. Thread starter.......keep us up to date should you pick one to hunt Indiana with! Always us for a good deer hunting story!

    God Bless!!
    Steve
    Last edited by 350JR; 09-20-2012 at 07:32 PM.

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    Re: Several options......new ones up and coming all the time.

    This has all been interesting to read, but good lord am I glad I live and hunt here. Other than a very few small areas that are SG/ML/handgun only it's basically anything over rimfires. The way they post regs here is anything, except.
    For example:
    ML:.40 or larger. There are a couple of pistol restrictions but you can carry ANY ML pistol as back up.
    SG: .410, slugs only and buck no smaller than #4 in any gauge.
    Hand guns: 4" barrel minimum and same caliber restrictions. But CCL holders can carry
    No full metal jacket ammo.
    I just went and looked and apparently a HG with a barrel between 4 and 10" firing straight walled centerfire cartridges must be .30 or larger. Won't hurt me on my .45LC.
    Anyway, that's it.

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