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Thread: Taking a knife attack seriously

  1. #1
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    Taking a knife attack seriously

    I'll try to post this, shows how deadly and quick a knife attack can be.

    https://www.full30.com/video/9030f86...1f3244842a91c2
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Yep.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

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    Senior Member Ernie Bishop's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Sad, but realistic
    Ernie

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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    We studied that in an in-service training class. With a knife wielding attacker, with a rubber knife, 21' away every deputy got stabbed before getting their firearm out and deployed. Unless you have gun in hand, DO NOT let a person with a knife get closer than 21' to you.

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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    There were so many things wrong with all of that incident that you can't really attribute it to one error. I don't speak spanish so I have no idea as to what all the dialog was about but all of the officers seemed to be way too resistant to use their weapons. The guy was surrounded by armed officers and none of them would stand their ground. The first guy that got stabbed had an AK in his hands and never even pointed it at the perp. Every one of the officers had a gun in their hands and when the perp would approach them, they would back away, even after he stabbed the first officer. I didn't understand why or how all of that happened.
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    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    "But he only had a knife"...yeah...right....
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
    We studied that in an in-service training class. With a knife wielding attacker, with a rubber knife, 21' away every deputy got stabbed before getting their firearm out and deployed. Unless you have gun in hand, DO NOT let a person with a knife get closer than 21' to you.
    I can't remember exactly, but I think the 21 foot rule applies even IF you have a gun in hand. Reaction time. I've been closer than that to a guy with a knife, but he was threatening himself only. I had my Glock out, of course, but didn't feel much threatened. It would have required him to turn 180 degrees and by that time he would have been out of the picture.
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post
    "But he only had a knife"...yeah...right....
    No joke. The knife IS a deadly weapon. Keep your distance.

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    Senior Member bobbyrlf3's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Another part of this is that the knife doesn't have to be Crocodile Dundee-style or a Bowie knife. A 1" blade can jump start the exsanguination process quite effectively.
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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    I went back and looked at the video again and counted at least five armed officers. The first guy (with the rifle) to get stabbed threw a stick at the perp when he advanced and never so much as tried to point the rifle at him. The second guy to get stabbed, (who likely was the one who was killed) was stabbed numerous times with another armed officer about ten feet or so from him who did nothing but yell at him. The perp that was doing all the stabbing didn't display any skill or speed, just a willingness to use his weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

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    Senior Member LMLarsen's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    I see this sad event as ultimately a training issue. As in, these guys didn't get nearly enough.
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    Senior Member Buford's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by LMLarsen View Post
    I see this sad event as ultimately a training issue. As in, these guys didn't get nearly enough.

    Training, they acted like sheep.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.

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    Senior Member Fat Billy's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Remember the 21 foot rule! Later,
    Fat Billy

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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    ...The perp that was doing all the stabbing didn't display any skill or speed, just a willingness to use his weapon.
    This is key. Training is more than just learning 'mechanical' skills. The people who survive gunfights or knife attacks do so because they are committed to acting with maximum violence, when attacked, and are either skilled enough or lucky enough to do it before their attacker has rendered them unable to do it.

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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    21 foot rule? I'd guess for most it's farther than that. DRAWING a handgun is something you have to practice, in addition to shooting it. These modern retention holsters that keep bad guys from easily swiping your gun are a great thing IF you aren't fumbling with the various hoods, levers, rockers, etc... We hear about the marksmanship issues quite a bit, and if they can't shoot real well, they probably can't draw that well either.

    When I was younger and bouncier, I trained in the hand-to-hand stuff quite regularly, and focused on knives quite a bit. You can do A LOT of damage with one in a VERY short period of time - especially if you have a little anatomical knowledge on your side, plus the clever slicer isn't going to brandish the thing. Ideally, your opponent doesn't know you have a knife until he's tripping over his own intestines, and all you can really do at that point is block with a part of your body you're LESS willing to have badly cut.

    The cold steel is truly no joke.
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    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Brandishing a knife is like open carry- - - -it gives away the element of surprise. I use a very sturdy cane with a solid brass knob the size of a golf ball on top (a horse collar hame), plus a Benchmade Griptilian knife clipped into my back pocket. The cane is pretty obvious, but the brass knob is sort of a sleeper- - - -by the time somebody realizes its true purpose it's going to be bouncing off his thick head.

    If the cane and the knife doesn't get me out of a jam or at least provide a little breathing room, it's time for the firearm. I hope I never have to employ that option!
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    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post

    The cold steel is truly no joke.
    I bare a few scars to attest to that fact.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

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    Senior Member shush's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    ...........The cold steel is truly no joke.
    I bare a few scars to attest to that fact.


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    Last edited by shush; 09-10-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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    ...But seriously Shush....

  19. #19
    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    I told my mom the blindfold bit was a bad idea.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    They pretty much encircled the man, which made shooting problematical. A tactical mistake as well as a psychological mistake. But truly they weren't prepared to shoot the guy.
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    21 foot rule is BS as it's still too close for comfort.

    I shoot in ten yards at the range and I can see that I can't draw in time from being charged from 10 yards. It'll be too close.

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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    I can draw and shoot in 1.6 seconds*, from a buzzer and with an Askins Avenger holster. I believe a knife wielding suspect could cover the distance in less than that.

    *Used to. 1911. Five rounds in 2.1 second with all hits on a pepper popper.
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    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
    I can draw and shoot in 1.6 seconds*, from a buzzer and with an Askins Avenger holster. I believe a knife wielding suspect could cover the distance in less than that.

    *Used to. 1911. Five rounds in 2.1 second with all hits on a pepper popper.
    For reference a typical reasonably fit person can cover 10 yds in about 2 seconds. A top athlete can cover 10 yds from a dead stop in 1.6 seconds.
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    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    One thing, I don't like knives. They petrify me, and if someone brandishes one and I'm carrying, the gun is coming out. He makes a move toward me and I'm using the firearm. But you gotta be willing to use your weapon. No jackin' around. You've got to put some lead in the purp as fast as you can do it. You want to commit suicide pull a knife on me in anger while I'm carrying. If I can get the gun out faster than you can get to me, I'm no longer worried about your life. Knives are bad ass weapons.
    Last edited by snake284; 09-12-2016 at 05:28 AM.
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    There is something else for you to keep in mind... Knowing how bad a knife can mess you up to defend against, it really isn't a bad idea to have a sharp knife as an option for yourself for SD. From the things I have seen, I believe that a knife can be just as, or more effective than any gun. It takes some training, but knives are very effective.
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    Senior Member Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    It's not hard to demonstrate on the range. One shooter facing his target, ready to draw and fire. One runner (bad guy) standing right beside the shooter, facing the opposite direction and one victim standing 7 yards from the runner. The shooter's command to draw and fire is the runner taking off. If the runner gets to the victim before the shooter hits his target, the shooter loses.

    Also referred to as a Tueller drill. Can also change it up a little and use only two people. Runner takes off, command to draw and fire, runner goes until he hears the first shot and stops there. See how far the runner got before the first shot was fired and check accuracy on target.
    Last edited by Jay; 09-12-2016 at 05:49 PM.

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    Senior Member Ernie Bishop's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    There is something else for you to keep in mind... Knowing how bad a knife can mess you up to defend against, it really isn't a bad idea to have a sharp knife as an option for yourself for SD. From the things I have seen, I believe that a knife can be just as, or more effective than any gun. It takes some training, but knives are very effective.
    You shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight and you shouldn't bring a gun to a knife fight.
    If you have both, you can choose the appropriate one(s) for the occasion.
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  28. #28
    Senior Member bobbyrlf3's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie Bishop View Post
    You shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight and you shouldn't bring a gun to a knife fight.
    If you have both, you can choose the appropriate one(s) for the occasion.
    I would be interested to read opinions here on how quickly a typical person can make that assessment in the heat of the moment during an adrenaline rush.

    Granted that if you're practicing good personal safety habits, it is rare that you can be caught unawares, but some things jump off pretty quickly.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    It's not hard to demonstrate on the range. One shooter facing his target, ready to draw and fire. One runner (bad guy) standing right beside the shooter, facing the opposite direction and one victim standing 7 yards from the runner. The shooter's command to draw and fire is the runner taking off. If the runner gets to the victim before the shooter hits his target, the shooter loses.

    Also referred to as a Tueller drill. Can also change it up a little and use only two people. Runner takes off, command to draw and fire, runner goes until he hears the first shot and stops there. See how far the runner got before the first shot was fired and check accuracy on target.
    Keep in mind, even if the shooter gets a shot off with the attacker within a few feet of him, it may not stop the attack. Nothing but a central nervous system hit will immediately stop an attacker who has momentum behind him. It's been proven that a person can continue to live up to 14 or more seconds with the heart shot out. Simply surviving on the oxygenated blood already in their system. A lot can be damaged with a knife in 14 seconds. And the attacker's sheer momentum could drive the knife into the shooter.

    So, even if you shoot a charging attacker with a knife..........it ain't over until the threat goes away. Offline and keep shooting until the threat stops. Don't be a stationary target.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

  30. #30
    Senior Member Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Taking a knife attack seriously

    Yup. The drill I mentioned is simply to illustrate the certainty that someone can cover a lot of ground by the time you get your gun out and start getting rounds on target. There's a lot more that goes into training to deal with the threat at that point as well as what to do after that particular threat stops. Move, down, scan, assess, look for more threats etc.

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