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Thread: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

  1. #31
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    The media in this case was totally and completely out of control, obviously seeing it as a means to sway the sheep to their anti-gun and "anyone who owns a gun is a racist" agswenda. If this comes as a surprise,. One has only to look at the railroading Richard Jewell got in 1996....when "trial by media" really came into it's own...

    Still...George Z got himself into a situation he had no business getting himself into in the first place...he went looking for trouble and he ultimately found it. I would tend to cut him a lot more slack but for his repeated acts of public dumbassery after the trial....
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  2. #32
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    GZ took on the whole weight of targeted prejudice and racial bigotry from the actual president of the United States and all the main stream media. At the end the system worked because he was declared not guilty in a court of law. No one is arguing that. But it was a second of his poor judgement that got him there, and all the subsequent moments of poor judgement have kept him there over the years.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  3. #33
    Member Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    I am well aware of the shortcomings of our current media pool. What happened to Zimmerman was a direct result of his actions. If by 'railroading' you mean treated somewhat less fairly than somebody in his position deserved, I would agree with reservations. If, instead you mean to imply he was merely a a fall guy of sorts... we will have to disagree.

    That's putting it as nicely as can be done.
    I am only trying to bring to light the lessons that are there for the learning in this tragic tale, and that those who dismiss them because they stop at the chronology of his story when his "actions" are called into question are doing themselves a HUGE disservice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    Sorry I meant called 911 and then waited for the LEOs to arrive and handle it. He called 911 and he then incited a confrontation with a thug by getting out of the car and following him around instead of watching and waiting. The ONE thing I'm grateful for and the best precedent set, was that FL law worked and was applied exactly as intended. GZ broke off the confrontation but TM did not and then he became the aggressor which led to his legal demise. But none of this would have happened if George had reported what he saw, stayed in his car, and let a cop handle it from there which is all a neighborhood watch is supposed to do.
    The dispatcher asked in what direction the man was running, and where the responding officer should meet GZ, the complainant. In a large development of look-alike homes, GZ wasn’t sure what street he was on and couldn’t see a street sign. Also indoctrinated by Neighborhood Watch training to be “the eyes and ears” of the authorities — and literally talking to “the voice of authority,” the police dispatcher — he stepped out of his car to reconnoiter so he could answer both questions. As he moved in the direction where the man in the hoodie had disappeared, the dispatcher asked if he was following that person. GZ replied in the affirmative. The dispatcher told him he didn’t have to do that, and the evidence shows that GZ then stopped following and headed back toward his vehicle where, in a few minutes he'd be punched in the nose by TM and taken to the ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post
    Still...George Z got himself into a situation he had no business getting himself into in the first place...he went looking for trouble and he ultimately found it. I would tend to cut him a lot more slack but for his repeated acts of public dumbassery after the trial....
    As an elected neighborhood watch captain it was entirely his business to look for potential trouble untoward his neighbors who, AGAIN, elected him to be watch captain in the crime ridden neighborhood in which he lived. You all keep harping on this as if it isn't possible that you have fallen for the narrative set forth by TM's family, the lawyer they hired, the PR firm the lawyer hired to disseminate a specific narrative, and the MSM's taking that narrative to unbelievably new lows, influencing a SA who took to trial one of the most inept prosecutions ever conjured up. Do any of you honestly think that the narrative would be any different if it had been a cop? Can you say Ferguson?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    GZ took on the whole weight of targeted prejudice and racial bigotry from the actual president of the United States and all the main stream media. At the end the system worked because he was declared not guilty in a court of law. No one is arguing that.
    Yes, but the point is when a man emerges, bad decisions or not, with $2.5 MILLION in debt, assassination plots galore, a ruined marriage, no prospects for employment, EVER! did the "system" REALLY work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    But it was a second of his poor judgement that got him there, and all the subsequent moments of poor judgement have kept him there over the years.
    It is possible to read beyond the perceived "poor judgement" (which I still believe is a part of the false narrative) as if none existed and see that this could have happened regardless. GZ could have been walking a beat as he would be fully in his right to do as the elected captain of his neighborhood watch. No car to exit from. Removing from the equation the "bad decision" you all feel GZ made. Seeing a hooded figure looking in the windows of a neighbors home...... Or that he was driving the community patrol car offered to GZ by the Sanford PD that GZ declined. My point is no matter what, a slightly new narrative would have emerged and we'd still be here.

    By the way I think its a much better discussion than what began this thread
    Last edited by Jack Burton; 05-18-2017 at 04:37 PM.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    It probably wouldn't hurt for you to check your facts. Twin Lakes was a gated, middle income community of townhomes. They had an issue with break-ins and GZ initiated the neighborhood watch and volunteered himself to captain it. He wasn't some elected hero sworn to protect his neighbors from ne'er do wells while they cowered in their homes. For the most part, he was the entire neighborhood watch team. All of the information about him, and his neighborhood, and his watch activities is available with an internet search so it's not necessary to make it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

  5. #35
    Member Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    It probably wouldn't hurt for you to check your facts. Twin Lakes was a gated, middle income community of townhomes. They had an issue with break-ins and GZ initiated the neighborhood watch and volunteered himself to captain it. He wasn't some elected hero sworn to protect his neighbors from ne'er do wells while they cowered in their homes. For the most part, he was the entire neighborhood watch team. All of the information about him, and his neighborhood, and his watch activities is available with an internet search so it's not necessary to make it up.
    The inference of heroism is yours my friend. A life of just 17 years was snuffed out. He may have not shown much promise in those pitiful few years but many have come from far worse to amount to much more, and so may have it been for TM. We'll never know. The taking of a life in self defense is rarely a heroic deed, only a necessary one if done within the law (as it was with GZ vis a vis TM). Perhaps you think otherwise. I hope you NEVER have to find that out. However you DO realize that many who became cops WANTED to be cops. Some may have thought they would make a difference. Some may have had a brush with crime and thought they could make the world a safer place. Fewer still had to shoot in the commission of their jobs. Did ONLY their noble sentiments negate their decisions? My only endeavor here was to hope some can look beyond the narrative set forth by a PR firm and a corrupt media with a contrary political agenda to ours.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member coolgunguy's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    If the discussion is to alert and enlighten others to the pitfalls of armed self defense, then treat it as such and use Zimmerman for what he is; a cautionary tale. To insinuate that his problems since that night are merely due to an eagerly vengeful media is disingenuous at best. The problems he encountered were a direct result of his actions. That they are also a result of Martin's actions is equally true, as are the consequences that Martin earned. They each serve as a negative example quite nicely.
    Last edited by coolgunguy; 05-19-2017 at 12:43 AM.
    Tim Mason

  7. #37
    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton View Post
    The inference of heroism is yours my friend. A life of just 17 years was snuffed out. He may have not shown much promise in those pitiful few years but many have come from far worse to amount to much more, and so may have it been for TM. We'll never know.
    You should spend more time researching than philosophising. The only reason Treyvon was even at Twin Lakes is because he was suspended from school for 10 days because of drug possession. His dad's girlfriend lived there and he was staying with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

  8. #38
    Member Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    If the discussion is to alert and enlighten others to the pitfalls of armed self defense, then treat it as such and use Zimmerman for what he is; a cautionary tale.
    I only proceeded further when the comments ended with "He's an idiot a wanna be" and this is where I felt people were selling the whole saga short.
    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    To insinuate that his problems since that night are merely due to an eagerly vengeful media is disingenuous at best.
    And speaking of selling the whole saga short. GZ was slated to go before a grand jury where, judging by the one day of deliberations the trial jurors took to find GZ not guilty, a no true bill would most likely have been returned. However due to pressures from that "merely eagerly vengeful media" and the grievance-mongers who descended upon Sanford it went straight to trial with a laughable charge (based on the LACK of evidence presented by the SA's) of 2nd degree murder and the fall-back charge or manslaughter where it rang up the aforementioned legal debt. GZ was incarcerated upon being charged and required to pay a bond of $150k which was revoked due to financial reporting shenanigans then GZ was re-jailed after which a new bond set of $1 million as if he was a flight risk with the worldwide attention he was getting.
    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    The problems he encountered were a direct result of his actions.
    As are ALL problems that befall the human species. To imply outside forces did not contribute hugely to GZ's problems is unbelievably ignorant, but I suppose it is bliss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    You should spend more time researching than philosophising. The only reason Treyvon was even at Twin Lakes is because he was suspended from school for 10 days because of drug possession. His dad's girlfriend lived there and he was staying with them.
    I see your philosophy point, which had been a reply to your heroic point, which I felt you mistakenly ascribed of my making the case of which I was not. However, how does it call into question my lack of research simply because I chose not to mention the circumstances of what brought TM to the Retreat at Twin Lakes of Sanford, FL in February of 2012, or of the human potential of a TM going forward had he not been killed on the night of February 26th 2012?
    Last edited by Jack Burton; 05-19-2017 at 05:05 PM.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member coolgunguy's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Hey, if believing folks who don't agree with you are blissfully ignorant gets you through the dark times, who am I to judge?
    Tim Mason

  10. #40
    Member Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    Hey, if believing folks who don't agree with you are blissfully ignorant gets you through the dark times, who am I to judge?
    What I believe is that everyone here for the most part are good people and I hoped to bring an alternative opinion of events and possibly change some minds so that perhaps dark times do not visit them. It is not that no one agreed with me as much as no one here really made their case in any detailed way. Nor did anyone make even a slightly substantial counter-argument to any point I expressed. Perhaps no one felt I made any points. Perhaps "idiot, wanna-be" is a better reason for this ordeal, it is certainly a less disquieting one than the alternative I have been trying to convey.

    On the one hand I say another media-driven s-storm like this is out there waiting to take place no matter the individual. It won't matter how he acts, what he decides, if he broke any laws, or how small his penis is, and I am offering nothing in the way of how to avoid it other than it will happen.
    On the other hand you all say don't be an "idiot wanna-be" and this won't happen to you.

    I can see why it may be difficult to see things my way.
    Last edited by Jack Burton; 05-21-2017 at 06:02 PM.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member coolgunguy's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Research is a funny thing. There is very little 'original' work being done anywhere and I have yet to see any in this thread, including your posts with links featuring articles from sources I normally would trust, but who do not cite any sources for their info, which therefore causes questioning of said info. You know as well as I do that I can find more sources pointing to Zimmerman's idiocy (If not outright guilt) than you would be able to find 'proving' his innocence or brilliance.

    Of course, neither of us would be researching anything, we'd just be linking sites that 'proved' our positions.

    You and I agree that the media gave Zimmerman a raw deal... but we disagree about his having earned that raw deal.
    Tim Mason

  12. #42
    Member Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Quote Originally Posted by coolgunguy View Post
    Research is a funny thing. There is very little 'original' work being done anywhere and I have yet to see any in this thread, including your posts with links featuring articles from sources I normally would trust, but who do not cite any sources for their info, which therefore causes questioning of said info. You know as well as I do that I can find more sources pointing to Zimmerman's idiocy (If not outright guilt) than you would be able to find 'proving' his innocence or brilliance.

    Of course, neither of us would be researching anything, we'd just be linking sites that 'proved' our positions.

    You and I agree that the media gave Zimmerman a raw deal... but we disagree about his having earned that raw deal.
    I'm mostly going by what evidence was presented at trial and the conclusions therefrom. Evidence the prosecution could not dispute and some that it actually tried to withhold. Alan Dershowitz had many interesting opinions about the whole fiasco if you care to look it up. The trial was such a farce based on the evidence the prosecution had in its possession that it required no special stupidity on GZ's behalf to earn. Hell a stupid person would have done a FAR better job incriminating himself that the state wouldn't need to stack the chips the way they did. This is why you do not see me say anywhere that GZ was smart, that he made good decisions, or that he was a hero. You all simply imply that I did.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    Are you guys enjoying your whizzing contest? I wonder who's going to run dry first?



    The Romance of Rex

    [A Tale of a Pedigreed Piddlin' Pup in Ten Piddles and a Puddle]



    Piddle No. 1

    A farmer's dog came into town,

    His Christian name was Rex,

    A noble pedigree had he

    Unusual was his text.

    And as he trotted down the street

    T'was beautiful to see

    His work on every corner --

    His work on every tree.



    Piddle No. 2

    He watered every gateway too,

    And never missed a post

    For piddling was his specialty

    And piddling was his boast.

    The City Curs looked on amazed

    With deep and jealous rage

    To see a simple country dog

    The piddler of the age.







    Piddle No. 3

    Then all the dogs from everywhere

    Were summoned with a yell,

    To sniff the country stranger o'er

    And judge him by the smell.

    Some thought that he a king might be

    Beneath his tail a rose,

    So every dog drew near to him

    And sniffed it up his nose.



    Piddle No. 4

    They smelled him over one by one

    They smelled him two by two

    And noble Rex, in high disdain,

    Stood still till they were thru.

    Then just to show the whole shebang

    He didn't give a dam

    He trotted in a grocery store

    And piddled on a ham.



    Piddle No. 5

    He piddled in a mackerel keg --

    He piddled on the floor,

    And when the grocer kicked him out

    He piddled through the door.

    Behind him all the city dogs

    Lined up with instinct true

    To start a piddling carnival

    And see the stranger through.



    Piddle No. 6

    They showed him every piddling post

    The had in all the town,

    And started in with many a wink

    To pee the stranger down.

    They sent for champion piddlers

    Who were always on the go,

    Who sometimes did a piddling stunt

    Or gave a piddle show.



    Piddle No. 7

    They sprung these on him suddenly

    When midway in the town;

    Rex only smiled and polished off

    The ablest, white or brown.

    For Rex was with them every trick

    With vigor and with vim

    A thousand piddles more or less

    Were all the same to him.



    Piddle No. 8

    So he was wetting merrily

    With hind leg kicking high,

    When most were hoisting legs in bluff

    And piddling mighty dry,

    On and on, Rex sought new grounds

    By piles and scraps and rust;

    Till every city dog went dry

    And piddled only dust.



    Piddle No. 9

    But on and on went noble Rex

    As wet as any rill,

    And all the champion city pups

    Were pee'd to a standstill.

    The Rex did free-hand piddling

    With fancy flirts and flits

    Like "double dip" and gimlet twist"

    And all those latest hits.



    Piddle No. 10

    And all the time this country dog

    Did never wink or grin,

    But piddled blithely out of town

    As he had piddled in.



    The Puddle

    The city dogs conventions held

    To ask "What did defeat us?"

    But no one ever put them wise

    That Rex had diabetes.
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    "When a man's down, KICK HIM! If he survives it he can rise above it!"

  14. #44
    Senior Member coolgunguy's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ's annual crime report, FBI's UCR, NRA and Cirilo all say

    So, the dog peed a lot?
    Tim Mason

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