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Thread: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

  1. #61
    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    I wouldn't go that far, but I do agree that cursive writing needs to go away...
    I guess we can all start using an "X" to sign checks and other legal instruments. Having a unique signature is also important for forgery identification. It's also useful to know the basics of a former technology in the event of catastrophic failure of the "new" system. I'm comfortable with new technology, but knowing the old ways are still useful.
    Last edited by Make_My_Day; 03-18-2017 at 03:32 PM.
    I DISLIKED COMMUNISTS BEFORE THEY CHANGED THEIR NAMES TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES

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    Senior Member CaliFFL's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    Mechanical means can fail. And it benefits to have a fail safe.
    True. I carry a GPS unit while tromping in the woods. I also have a compass and a map tucked in my backpack. But, I've never had to use them because of GPS failure.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand

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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    As many of you know, my significant other has been teaching in this same county for 37 years and she occasionally reads the forum over my shoulder and has had a little input about this thread. She pointed out that many of the people here that point out antiquated, or outdated, or inefficient, or irrelevant teaching methods or subjects are behaving exactly the way state and school administrators want them to. Teach to the test, everything else is irrelevant. Do not promote independent thought or problem solving skills, just learn the test. Many of you are overlooking the fact that at one time, educational curriculums were designed to stimulate different parts of a child's developing brain along with teaching possibly useful skills. At Debbie's school, they teach from kindergarten to seniors and there is no more art class, one token shop class, no home economics, and the band/chorus teacher is retiring and may not be replaced. No more irrelevant or inefficient subjects, just teach the test and create your society of controllable drones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
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  4. #64
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Make_My_Day View Post
    I guess we can all start using an "X" to sign checks and other legal instruments. Having a unique signature is also important for forgery identification. It's also useful to know the basics of a former technology in the event of catastrophic failure of the "new" system. I'm comfortable with new technology, but knowing the old ways are still useful.
    Umm, no. You can print your name and it's just as unique as cursive. Cursive is stupid, was stupid, and always will be stupid. And I can't recall filling out any kind of form and seeing the phrase "please cursive".

    My favorite argument for teaching kids cursive is that if they don't know it, they won't be able to read historical doucumemts like the Constitution.
    People who say it can't be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    When I grew up in OK in the eighties, I don't think 4 out of 5 Okies could read an analog clock then. The ratio was only slightly higher for digital. Sayin.

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    Senior Member Jermanator's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    Do not promote independent thought or problem solving skills, just learn the test. Many of you are overlooking the fact that at one time, educational curriculums were designed to stimulate different parts of a child's developing brain along with teaching possibly useful skills.
    As a guy in the "trades" I am extremely grateful for my broad based liberal arts education. I never realized until after the fact how useful learning about art, music, philosophy, and literature actually is. They are nothing more than different ways of thinking and support problem solving and critical thinking by unlocking avenues of thought that weren't available before. Mathematics and science are the same way-- people complain that they never use the algebra they learned in high school. While somewhat true, that is unimportant. The important part is that it trains your brain to methodically break down complex problems and work through to the solution, bit by bit. I wish STEM majors (and everyone else) would take those "general education" classes a bit more seriously-- even the lowly English 101 class has merit in that it is designed to teach students how to organize their thoughts in a way where others can understand them.

    Shop classes are awesome too! From the one semester of combined drafting/woodworking I had in middle school, the intro to drafting was enough to where I could read drawings and I can make fairly crude but functional drawings which enabled me to design 3 houses and now my distillery. The guys that work with me use their shop class skills all the time and adds significant value to their labor. The kids that never had shop class wonder who can make or build their gadget, or since it isn't online or in a store, never realize that such a problem solving contraption can even exist. The kids with shop class dive right in and start making stuff.
    Вернём Америке былое величие

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    Senior Member jbp-ohio's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Many of the college educated folks I have had job interviews with lately don't believe me on what my High School Major was (listed on my resume)................ Industrial Arts.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member jbp-ohio's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    2 years Machine Shop (2 period class)
    2 years Wood shop (2 period class)
    1 year Basic Sheet Metal
    1 year Mechanical Drawing
    1 year Drafting

    My Senior year was 9 periods......

    1) Study Hall
    2) Typing (typing teacher was Hawt!)
    3) Basic Computer
    4) Study Hall
    5) Lunch
    6) Wood Shop
    7) Wood Shop
    8) Machine Shop
    9) Machine Shop

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member CaliFFL's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    I wish STEM majors (and everyone else) would take those "general education" classes a bit more seriously-- even the lowly English 101 class has merit in that it is designed to teach students how to organize their thoughts in a way where others can understand them.
    Guilty as charged. I endured GE classes and resented having to pay for them.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand

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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliFFL View Post
    Guilty as charged. I endured GE classes and resented having to pay for them.
    I do admit that some are flat out stupid. But if taken with the right attitude with the right teacher, a music or jazz appreciation class can really open your mind, as silly as it sounds.
    Вернём Америке былое величие

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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliFFL View Post
    I'd bet 5 out of 5 can't read a sun dial....
    Especially in the dark, right? But hey, maybe I'm overthinking this whole thing.
    Member formerly known as "vlafrank."

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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    As many of you know, my significant other has been teaching in this same county for 37 years and she occasionally reads the forum over my shoulder and has had a little input about this thread. She pointed out that many of the people here that point out antiquated, or outdated, or inefficient, or irrelevant teaching methods or subjects are behaving exactly the way state and school administrators want them to. Teach to the test, everything else is irrelevant. Do not promote independent thought or problem solving skills, just learn the test. No more irrelevant or inefficient subjects, just teach the test and create your society of controllable drones.
    While making no pretense of expertise in this subject, I feel duty bound to say that ".....just teach the test" is an absolutely Orwellian mindset, almost guaranteed to indeed create a society of controllable drones. I want cursive taught because I believe you must learn to crawl before you can walk, and learn to walk before you can run, etc. That teaching philosophy used to be called "the building blocks of knowledge" before teaching to the test became the norm. In 7th and 8th grade I was taught 2 years of latin, very helpful in reading about law and medicine. I took mandatory plane geometry as a sophomore, not really knowing why, then used that training every day for 19 years as a real estate appraiser. Algebra has indeed taught me to break down problems into their component parts for better analysis, and so on. Just my .02
    Member formerly known as "vlafrank."

  13. #73
    Senior Member NN's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    just teach the test
    And tap dance when you do
    "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event." -----SECDEF

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    It takes 10x the time to print an essay than to write it in cursive.
    Not if you want to be able to read it!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tugar View Post
    She believes that the act of writing helps the brain commit it to memory on a permanent basis. I thought the same thing in high school. I kept my notes but rarely studied as the act of taking the notes in the first place was usually enough to make an impression.
    It does for a lot of people - but not everyone. I'm an auditory learner. Somebody tells me something, I'll remember it 50 years later. I can still hear my H.S. electronics instructor's voice when I encounter certain situations. Writing it down actually detracts from my remembering it - I almost never take notes, unless its a list of "somethings". Even though I'm an excellent reader, I still understand better if someone tells me - my college professors often lectured from the book that I'd already read, but I understood the material MUCH better with the auditory reinforcement.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    Not if you want to be able to read it!
    When I went to school, we had to learn to write legibly whether we were printing or writing in cursive. Artistic expression was for art class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    When I went to school, we had to learn to write legibly whether we were printing or writing in cursive. Artistic expression was for art class.
    I can write legibly if I print (slowly) - cursive, uh, not so much. I always got Ds and Fs in handwriting, never could cursive write worth a damn (even slowly) - and didn't see the point of it then - or now. I learned to type in the 4th grade and never looked back!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    As a guy in the "trades" I am extremely grateful for my broad based liberal arts education. I never realized until after the fact how useful learning about art, music, philosophy, and literature actually is. They are nothing more than different ways of thinking and support problem solving and critical thinking by unlocking avenues of thought that weren't available before...
    I can almost agree with this, except that reading a few good books can accomplish the task more efficiently, without requiring pat answers to test questions that determine 'fitness.'

    Back during the days when I was a voracious reader (and manual laborer), I undertook to discipline my reading, thereby 'broadening my horizons.' I read Steinbeck, and liked it, even though he was considered a commie by people with my upbringing. I read philosophy, far beyond my ability to comprehend it, because there were always a few pearls in even the most far out BS, and because I wanted to know what smart people based their ideas on. I finally figured out that I am a realist, in the sense that I believe I can recognize bullshiite when I hear it.

    Oh, I'm not infallible, and just because I recognize BS, it doesn't mean that I have an alternative argument that is not also BS. It just means that I don't have to be intimidated by it, and putting up an opposition argument dilutes it, somewhat, even if it does not completely blow it out of the water. It's just one 'skirmish' in a larger battle, of an even larger war of ideas.

    So, I will admit that it is helpful to have a passing familiarity with what passes for 'the arts,' if for no other reason than to identify fellow BS'ers.

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    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    I can write legibly if I print (slowly) - cursive, uh, not so much. I always got Ds and Fs in handwriting, never could cursive write worth a damn (even slowly) - and didn't see the point of it then - or now. I learned to type in the 4th grade and never looked back!
    This. My cursive writing sucks. And my printing isn't much better unless I really take my time.
    People who say it can't be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    This. My cursive writing sucks. And my printing isn't much better unless I really take my time.
    Who woulda thunk that you and Zorba would have things in common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

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    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    Who woulda thunk that you and Zorba would have things in common.
    If that's the only thing, that's cool. Otherwise , I'm taking a double barrel 12 gauge to the head.
    People who say it can't be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    I talked with my wife, who's a schoolteacher about this. She said that they still teach reading analog clocks, starting in second grade, with refreshers in third and fourth grade. Then I read the article...

    It concerns kids ages 6-12. Now I can't find the original study, but kids age 6 can be on the tail-end of Kindergarten, or just starting first grade. Second grade is kids ages 7-8, and fourth is ages 9-10. Twelve year olds are finishing sixth grade. So how many of the kids in the study are in each grade?

    The reports don't say WHEN the study was done. Also kinda key. Was the study done before the teachers started teaching the material? What's the background of the kids? Any of them English as Second Language (ESOL) or Exceptional Student Education (ESE) students, who may have issues with that sort of thing? Too many unanswered questions that could make that 4 out of 5 number who are unable to read a clock not too unreasonable.
    Overkill is underrated.

  23. #83
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    I dunno, just watch Watter's World and even many of those in Ivy League Universities can't answer 5th grade questions like who was the first US president!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chief View Post
    I dunno, just watch Watter's World and even many of those in Ivy League Universities can't answer 5th grade questions like who was the first US president!
    And it never occurred to you that they might edit out those that do know? Or that those who "don't know" might be just messing with the interviewer?
    Last edited by breamfisher; 03-21-2017 at 02:48 PM.
    Overkill is underrated.

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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by breamfisher View Post
    And it never occurred to you that they might edit out those that do know?

    Ya beat me to it. We don't know how many people they asked before they found the ones with the crazy stupid answers.
    On the original topic, states have to adhere to certain federal guidlines with their curriculums but they do give some leeway to the states and Oklahoma may not require kids to learn to read an analog clock but Florida does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffco View Post
    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.

  26. #86
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    He shows the ones who get it right too and gives them a High Five sometimes, but yes it is edited like all TV shows like that. Others have done the same and had the same results. Sure it gets more viewers attention showing those who can't find their arses with both hands.

    Seems to be trend lately that our kids are not taught enough of he basics.............we used to call the them the "Three Rs"..........reading, (w)riting and arithmetic.

    That should also include some American History and Civics.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    Umm, no. You can print your name and it's just as unique as cursive. Cursive is stupid, was stupid, and always will be stupid. And I can't recall filling out any kind of form and seeing the phrase "please cursive".

    My favorite argument for teaching kids cursive is that if they don't know it, they won't be able to read historical doucumemts like the Constitution.
    Here are 3 links that dispute your claim. While I am better and faster at writing in block letters than in cursive, I believe it is as valuable to have the skill in both as it is valuable to be fluent in more than one language. Having been taught both writing styles in grammar school in the 1950's, I see nothing wrong with being proficient at both.

    http://education.cu-portland.edu/blo...ght-in-school/

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/25/...-need-cursive/

    https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/...an-penmanship/
    I DISLIKED COMMUNISTS BEFORE THEY CHANGED THEIR NAMES TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES

  28. #88
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Same thing when the young cashiers at Burger Flipper Joints can't make change without the computer telling them how to do it. True they ain't college grads/students for the most part, but surely had some "Edumication".
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    He shows the ones who get it right too All of them?and gives them a High Five sometimes, but yes it is edited like all TV shows like that. Others have done the same and had the same results. Sure it gets more viewers attention showing those who can't find their arses with both hands. And that's the point of the show. To get folks to watch, maybe even feel a little smug about themselves...

    Seems to be trend lately that our kids are not taught enough of he basics.............we used to call the them the "Three Rs"..........reading, (w)riting and arithmetic. What are you basing that on? Have you talked with those who are actually teaching, lately?

    That should also include some American History and Civics.They do. U.S. Government and U.S. History are available to all students. Kids have to pass a U.S. History End of Course exam to graduate High School.

    http://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse....shmanflyer.pdf

    Here's a couple of curriculum maps for high schools covering U.S. History and Government.
    http://myvolusiaschools.org/K12-Curr...y%20Honors.pdf

    http://myvolusiaschools.org/K12-Curr...t%20Honors.pdf
    Overkill is underrated.

  30. #90
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Study: 4-in-5 Oklahoma City students canít read clocks

    Why yes all the time, my oldest daughter is a teacher has been for 15+ years. Now she teaches HS AP classes and has taught in elementary and middle schools at several locations in FLA and online classes (A FLA requirement for a HS diploma or was).

    There is no way you or anyone else is gonna convince me today's students are up to snuff on those basic subjects as they used to be, in general.

    Most of her students are college bound and have the willpower to learn and succeed in school. Sometimes school administrators put students in AP classes who have no business being there. Maybe for grants or state/federal monies to show what % of students are in those classes is the incentive to stack the numbers.

    I stick by my guns here, by and large most students do not have the same level of retained knowledge generally as they did from years past. There are exceptions and some schools, teachers and students are much better than others.

    I agree times have changed and what was once considered a staple/building blocks of knowledge on the learning process has changed over the years. Society has changed its mores, families aren't "Nuclear" as they were and the computer age has changed traditional "Book Learning" radically.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
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