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Thread: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

  1. #241
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Another thing to consider about the pulling down of the RE Lee statue. Lee was a very proud and patriotic American, with strong roots going back to the American Revolution (against the King). He served with distinction in the Mexican war, and along the frontier, in Texas. He was very much against the secession of Virginia. He did not resign his commission until after Fort Sumter, when it became evident that the Army of the Potomac was going to cross the Potomac and attack his home state of Virginia. Abraham Lincoln wanted him to command that army and formally offered him the job. Lee's family, like most wealthy and prominent southern families, had owned slaves since before the revolution, yet he freed his without being forced, either by law or by force. This is what he wrote, in 1856, about slavery:

    Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:
    I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?
    Granted that Lee would still be considered a racist, by modern standards, but in his own time, he held approximately the same view as many of our 'founding fathers' had, and not all that far from those of Abraham Lincoln. Basically, he was quite willing to give up slavery, but as he stated, not by illegal means (war). Had a constitutional amendment been proposed to end slavery by peaceful methods, there is every reason to believe he would have supported it, or at the very least, not resisted it.

    The leftist groups would have found much less wide-spread resistance had they destroyed a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest (if there is one), who, though a great general, was a very pro-active racist and made no apologies about it.




  2. #242
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    I find this current trend towards the erasure of history disturbing. Much of it stems from the application of current social/moral norms to historical figures who lived in times with different norms. I don't think that is at all productive or useful. And strikes my as downright reckless and dangerous. It needs to stop.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    There are current social/moral norms these days? We're living in the most amoral society the world has ever known!

    Jerry
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    Senior Member sgtrock21's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    The late Dan Johnson used to be in charge here before he passed away. His signature line said something like, "If you don't get moderated, you aren't posting enough. "

    You got moderated. You are posting enough.
    Thank you. LOL.

  5. #245
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    There are current social/moral norms these days? We're living in the most amoral society the world has ever known!

    Jerry
    Nah, the Italians and Western Mediterranean's beat us on this topic by a long shot back in the day.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  6. #246
    Senior Member sgtrock21's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    That thread I said that in is here:

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showth...L-AG-sues-city

    I had to look for it, and I'm the one what wrote it!
    Thanks. I can't really recall what I posted that was censured. Old timer's disease strikes again.

  7. #247
    Senior Member sgtrock21's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    I find this current trend towards the erasure of history disturbing. Much of it stems from the application of current social/moral norms to historical figures who lived in times with different norms. I don't think that is at all productive or useful. And strikes my as downright reckless and dangerous. It needs to stop.
    It is what happens when people's politics are driven by emotion rather than logic.

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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    I keep saying all the present day events have nothing to do with the civil war, that is just the peg the alt left hangs their hat on, but the present day events have everything to do with the attempted destruction of this country.

  9. #249
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    Nah, the Italians and Western Mediterranean's beat us on this topic by a long shot back in the day.
    They got their jollies doing unspeakable things with their pet gerbil and insisting it's "normal"? Somehow I doubt it!
    Jerry
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  10. #250
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    I keep saying all the present day events have nothing to do with the civil war, that is just the peg the alt left hangs their hat on, but the present day events have everything to do with the attempted destruction of this country.
    That is probably true, but since the schools have been 'phoning in' their Cliff Notes history lessons for the last 4 or 5 decades, too many folks don't realize that the statue destruction should be an outrage. It is behavior I would expect from Muslims, Nazis, or Communists, but no one else I can think of.

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    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    They got their jollies doing unspeakable things with their pet gerbil and insisting it's "normal"? Somehow I doubt it!
    Jerry
    I am thinking Sodom and Gomorrah, Caligula, Nero, etc. actions back in the day make the pet gerbil thing look like a church picnic.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  12. #252
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtrock21 View Post
    Thanks. I can't really recall what I posted that was censured. Old timer's disease strikes again.
    Time out from the current thread.

    You, along with some others in other threads, got their post deleted for bypassing the auto censor.

    If you type it, and the auto censor lets it by, all is good. If you type motherers and it doesn't, don't type meffers.

    Pretty simple.

    No name calling. Even snowflake. No bypassing the autocensor.

    As a grown man with better things to do, I shouldn't have to waste my time enforcing these two simple rules. At one point in this boards history, that would have been unthinkable.

    So......there you have it.

    No name calling, no bypassing the autocensor. Pretty simple.

    The political side of the 2A forum is back. Don't blow it.

    And, Sgtrock, this wasn't all directed at you.

    PSA over. You can return to your regularly scheduled conflicts.
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  13. #253
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    Another thing to consider about the pulling down of the RE Lee statue. Lee was a very proud and patriotic American, with strong roots going back to the American Revolution (against the King). He served with distinction in the Mexican war, and along the frontier, in Texas. He was very much against the secession of Virginia. He did not resign his commission until after Fort Sumter, when it became evident that the Army of the Potomac was going to cross the Potomac and attack his home state of Virginia. Abraham Lincoln wanted him to command that army and formally offered him the job. Lee's family, like most wealthy and prominent southern families, had owned slaves since before the revolution, yet he freed his without being forced, either by law or by force. This is what he wrote, in 1856, about slavery:

    Granted that Lee would still be considered a racist, by modern standards, but in his own time, he held approximately the same view as many of our 'founding fathers' had, and not all that far from those of Abraham Lincoln. Basically, he was quite willing to give up slavery, but as he stated, not by illegal means (war). Had a constitutional amendment been proposed to end slavery by peaceful methods, there is every reason to believe he would have supported it, or at the very least, not resisted it.

    The leftist groups would have found much less wide-spread resistance had they destroyed a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest (if there is one), who, though a great general, was a very pro-active racist and made no apologies about it.



    interesting factoid...Leftist groups are taking a single paragraph out of that letter and using it to point out that Lee was a slave master and a racist...and the uneducated morons on social media are swallowing it hook line and sinker. I have been posting the letter, in it's entirety and it seems to take the wind right out of their sails...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post
    ...morons on social media...
    But you repeat yourself...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Interesting tidbit I found here. Lee was actually against the idea of Civil War monuments. Saying it would be wiser, "not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/u...pgtype=article

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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Likely, he wanted to avoid what is happening now. He must have had many regrets, having ordered so many to their deaths in a losing cause.

  17. #257
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    But you repeat yourself...
    Hint: this forum is social media.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post

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  18. #258
    Senior Member early's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    I wish I could convince myself that most people are smart enough to know that complexed circumstances, characters, and events can not be accurately distilled into convenient 90 second sound bites.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  19. #259
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    Hint: this forum is social media.
    It can be called such - yet it isn't what most think of when the term is brought up. *shrug*
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Senior Member Varmintmist's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    Another thing to consider about the pulling down of the RE Lee statue. Lee was a very proud and patriotic American, with strong roots going back to the American Revolution (against the King).
    With his father serving the federal govt against any states uprising with armed troops.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.

  21. #261
    Senior Member Varmintmist's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    President Buchanan was still POTUS when the first Southern states seceded. He was the one that could have, but did not, deal in a timely manner about forts and other installations of the Union in the seceded Southern states. He left Lincoln with that mess. And if you think those relief ships Lincoln had only food supplies for Ft. Sumter, then I have some info on Gulf of Mexico beach front property in Montana in which you might like to invest.

    As to Lincoln, here's a bit of what he could have done, proposed, and then reneged on what he said he would do. Read the whole thing; it's some interesting information.

    http://civilwarhome.com/southernseccession.htm
    On March 5, Lincoln learned from Maj. Robert Anderson, the commander at Fort Sumter, that dwindling food supplies would force an evacuation of the fort within four to six weeks. Lincoln decided against any immediate attempt to save the fort. On March 12, however, he issued orders for the reinforcement of Fort Pickens. More accessible to the Federal navy because of its location outside Pensacola Harbor beyond the range of Confederate artillery, Fort Pickens had the additional advantage of being overshadowed in the public consciousness by Fort Sumter, a highly charged symbol of Federal resolve in the state that had started secession. Presumably, it could be reinforced with less risk of precipitating a war than could Fort Sumter.
    Lincolns initial decision not to act on Fort Sumter was also a concession to William H. Seward, his secretary of state. Seward was the chief spokesman for what was called the policy of "masterly inactivity." He believed that Unionists in the upper South were on the verge of leading a process of voluntary reunion. If the upper South were not stampeded into joining the Confederacy by a coercive act by the Republicans, Seward argued, an isolated Confederacy would soon have no choice but to bargain to rejoin the Union. Everything depended, of course, on a conciliatory Republican policy.
    In pursuing this strategy, Lincoln temporarily considered a withdrawal from Fort Sumter in exchange for a binding commitment from the upper South not to leave the Union. Seward then made the mistake of assuming that evacuation was a foregone conclusion. He was conducting informal negotiations with three Confederate commissioners who were in Washington seeking a transfer of Fort Pickens and Fort Sumter. On March 15 he informed them through an intermediary to expect a speedy evacuation of Fort Sumter. When no such evacuation was forthcoming, Confederate leaders felt betrayed, and they vowed never again to trust the word of the Lincoln administration.
    Mounting demands in the North to take a stand at Fort Sumter, combined with Lincolns growing disillusionment over Southern Unionism, convinced the president that he would have to challenge the Confederacy over the issue of Fort Sumter. On March 29 he told his cabinet that he was preparing a relief expedition. He delayed informing Major Anderson of that decision until after a meeting on April 4 with John Baldwin, a Virginia Unionist. Although no firsthand account of this meeting exists, the discussion apparently confirmed Lincolns belief that the upper South could not broker a voluntary reunion on terms acceptable to the Republican party. The final orders for the relief expedition were issued on April 6, the day that Lincoln learned that Fort Pickens had not yet been reinforced because of a mix-up in the chain of command.
    News of Lincolns decision to reinforce Fort Sumter "with provisions only" reached Montgomery, the Confederate capital, on April 8. 7 Apr being when Ole PT cut off market food to the fort leaving Anderson to say that they would be starved out by the 15thThe next day Davis ordered Gen. P G. T. Beauregard, the Confederate commander at Charleston, to demand an immediate surrender of the fort. If Major Anderson refused, Beauregard was to attack the fort. Davis always felt that war was inevitable,and decided to start one and for months the most radical of the secessionists had been insisting that a military confrontation would be necessary to force the upper South into secession.because a lot had not voted to secede until after the war started Davis was convinced that he had no alternative but to counter Lincolns move with a show of force. because turning back the relief wouldn't start a war as firing on ships hadnt in the prior 6 months
    Confederate batteries opened fire on Fort Sumter on April 12, and the fort surrendered two days later On April 15 Lincoln issued a call for seventy-five thousand stare militia to put down what he described as an insurrection against lawful authority. It was this call for troops, and not just the armed clash at Fort Sumter, that specifically triggered secession in the upper South. The Unionist majorities there suddenly dissolved once the choice shifted from supporting the Union or the Confederacy to fighting for or against fellow Southerners.


    And this link has some information that is not easily found in history books, and is annotated as to sources. It's worth reading unless the truth is scary.

    http://www.southernheritage411.com/t...ory.php?th=052
    OK, so how many men were in this resupply? Remember, Gen Scott, who led Lee in the Mex war, and who dismissed Lee (not Lincoln) when Lee said he would rather not be in the war, only later joining the South, said that 20K at a min were needed and the entire Fed army was at 16K with almost all of them being on the western boarder dealing with indians. Your basis of argument is that your quote has "with provisions only" in quotes. No matter how you slice it, there were NOT enough troops to reinforce the fort anywhere in the union or territories to any degree. If they did receive provision, Anderson would not have been starved out then the question would have been what happens now. But that didnt happen. The upper south, as in your post, was likely NOT to succeed without a flame of some sort. Davis gave them that.
    12 Apr the confederate forces fired on a federal fort after starving them out with a agreement to gain the fort on 15 Apr at noon. Act. Of. War. Your timeline is correct and I have no heartache with it.

    The link was interesting and "slightly" biased. To complain about troops getting furlough to go vote? A lot of them from a state that the south had attacked and burned and suffered at least two major incursions by the Lee family? Guys got home to burned houses and looted farms and they voted for the person who took the war into the south. Imagine that.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.

  22. #262
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by Varmintmist View Post
    With his father serving the federal govt against any states uprising with armed troops.
    Err...do we have to extend this discussion of character all the way back to Lighthorse Harry's role in the Whiskey Rebellion?

    If so, can we note for the record that this was the first ever serious attempt, by the first ever president, to enforce taxes upon the American citizenry, under a brand new constitution, and that, by the way, no casualties were incurred? The posse comitatus act wasn't passed until 1878, to help cure the evils of Reconstruction, so, what's the problem?

  23. #263
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    The more that I think about it, the more offended I am about the monuments to General Sherman and think that they should be removed and destroyed. Sherman was a murderer who targeted civilians to discourage them from offering any aid to Confederate soldiers. Whatever food couldn't be carried off was destroyed to keep it out of Confederate hands. In this day and age we take great care to avoid harming civilians and their property during any conflicts but a General who focused on harming the South as a whole to "show them the heavy hand of war" by terrorizing and murdering civilians and destroying their property is honored with monuments in several states with the two largest being in Washington DC and New York. Why is there no outcry to remove a monument honoring a mass murderer? Is it because he only murdered Southerners?
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
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  24. #264
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Steve, the liberal bigots, especially the ones who post here, have a sort of selective amnesia when it comes to "fair and balanced" application of their talking points. Using their own words and actions against them is the equivalent of - - - - - -it really feels good when you stop, because all they're going to do is stick their fingers in their ears and yell "LALALALALALALA- - - - -I can't hear you!"
    Jerry
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    I find this current trend towards the erasure of history disturbing. Much of it stems from the application of current social/moral norms to historical figures who lived in times with different norms. I don't think that is at all productive or useful. And strikes my as downright reckless and dangerous. It needs to stop.
    This is the same thing ISIS is doing in the middle east with destroying cultural artifacts. They do not fit in with their narrow and bigoted worldview, so they destroy them
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    This is the same thing ISIS is doing in the middle east with destroying cultural artifacts. They do not fit in with their narrow and bigoted worldview, so they destroy them
    WORD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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