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Thread: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

  1. #31
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    Uhm, you would be wrong, they maintain the standards and enforce the rules that allow boys to become men, they raise funds to maintain Scout camps and High Adventure camps, the Troops would not exist without the Organization, the written down and time tested organization. An Eagle badge would mean nothing without the standards set forth, individual Troops can and do fall apart when there is deviation from the standards.
    Sure you need a national organization and they serve a purpose, but I think you overstate their importance. In the 8+ years I spent in scouting it was the the volunteers and parents (yes both sexes) who spent their time to teach me and take me on adventures that made the impact.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Varmintmist's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    The volunteers and parents who took training by and plans from the national. Who were covered under the nationals insurance as long as they followed the nationals rules. Who submitted their backgrouund checks the the organization. You cant just do anything you want to. To go on those adventures, they had to submit paperwork outlining what they were going to do IAW the nationals rules. It doesnt happen without support. You were in as a kid for 8, I was in as a adult for 11. A leader has a lot of leeway, within the rules. If you color outside the lines and anyone gets a boo boo, its your tush in a sling.
    Did the troop parents print the book that they taught you knots out of? Did the Scoutmaster buy the land for the Klondike derby? Each troop used the resources of the council and the national to make the troop function. Do you honestly think that I would have taken on the responsibility to take 18 boys from 12-17 on a 100 mile self supported canoe trip? Much as I like them and doing the trips there is NO WAY I would put myself on the hook for that. No parent in our troop went on those trips w/o a background check and no boy or adult went who couldnt follow the basic rules.
    Last edited by Varmintmist; 07-30-2017 at 05:26 AM.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Sure you need a national organization and they serve a purpose, but I think you overstate their importance. In the 8+ years I spent in scouting it was the the volunteers and parents (yes both sexes) who spent their time to teach me and take me on adventures that made the impact.
    Go put on the brown shirt and see how much training goes into running a Pack/Troop. Did your parents serve on a committee or in a leadership position? Have you ever spoken with or dealt with your district representative? How about the folks in charge of a camp? You really have no idea to make such a statement.

    FWIW, I NEVER put on a brown shirt, so I can't really talk, but me and the wife served on committee positions and went as adult leaders, with appropriate National BSA training, and put in the hours in the camps. The folks running the show have unenviable jobs and they did them well because of the structure and outline at the national level.
    Last edited by CHIRO1989; 07-30-2017 at 05:36 AM.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  4. #34
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    You're - - - - -talking truth and logic to the equivalent of a divorced marriage counselor who knows everything and is a legend in his own mind!
    Jerry
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Those camp-out C-Js will never be the same ...

  6. #36

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Went to the big area council meeting on this subject where they played a couple of videos from the director of the BSA on how they want to open new markets, blah, blah, blah.... And then outlined the plans for what they wanted to do with the cub scouts- basically have "separate but equal" cub scouts programs for girls. (Someone pointed out that 'separate but equal' will not pass any lawsuit) For Boy Scouts, they are trying to decide if they partner with another organization that already caters to females, or design their own parallel track that will allow girls to do the same things and earn the same badges (including Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow).

    Discussion got heated with the the actual scouts in attendance offering reasoned and logical arguments why the BOY Scouts should be for BOYS, and continue to lead BOYS into becoming men. Then there were the representatives from sponsoring churches saying that they will not sponsor a co-ed Boy Scouts... and then there were the strident and constantly offended women and California-transplants that were completely irrational and were all about "THERE IS NO WAY I CAN EVER GROW THE STONES TO TELL MY PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE DAUGHTER 'NO' TO ANYTHING, SO WE MUST CHANGE A 107 YEAR OLD PROVEN ORGANIZATION TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR ME!!!!"

    The BSA position was that this is DEFINITELY not about money, and that in NO WAY is the decision already made. Which, as anyone that has had a 9 year old around knows that when they say "There is nothing hidden under the bed!". they we know this is 100% all about money, and the decision has already been made.

    There was a survey that went out afterwards. We filled it out and said this is a REAL bad idea. But, on the bright side, maybe I wont have to go do Popcorn sales this year. Because selling small bags of mediocre popcorn for $20 a bag is just awful.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Varmintmist's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    The decision probably hasnt been made yet. Like the gays in the BSA though, your opinion wont matter when it is. We were all asked for input on that debacle. That stupid idea was panned out of hand by the membership by a lot bigger margin than any pres ever won, and you know what the result is.

    Venture Scouts is a outstanding idea, but it is for young adults.

    The microwave kettle corn is about the only thing I would sell. Price per unit was fair and as a person who is not a popcorn fan, I looked forward to it.

    As a aside. One way to keep out the "participation trophy" crowd is to have a active troop. Start strapping packs on. When the subject comes up that they "cant" then it is time to sit down with the scout and the parents and suggest another troop. I have had that conversation. If the troop is a car camping troop or a barely camping troop, you are going to get anyone who excels to the minimum requirements. Take over the Camping merit badge counselor position. You can do a lot with that.
    Last edited by Varmintmist; 08-04-2017 at 05:32 PM.
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  8. #38

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varmintmist View Post

    As a aside. One way to keep out the "participation trophy" crowd is to have a active troop. Start strapping packs on. When the subject comes up that they "cant" then it is time to sit down with the scout and the parents and suggest another troop. I have had that conversation. If the troop is a car camping troop or a barely camping troop, you are going to get anyone who excels to the minimum requirements. Take over the Camping merit badge counselor position. You can do a lot with that.
    Unfortunately, I am on the Cub Scout side for the next 2 years or so. The whole process is built around participation trophies and "Yay, you got your 'I Can Walk and Breath At The Same Time' belt loop! Good Job!".

    As a scout master told me one time "I hate cub scouts. It's just babysitting where the bitchy moms stay and watch"
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  9. #39
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Unfortunately, I am on the Cub Scout side for the next 2 years or so. The whole process is built around participation trophies and "Yay, you got your 'I Can Walk and Breath At The Same Time' belt loop! Good Job!".

    As a scout master told me one time "I hate cub scouts. It's just babysitting where the bitchy moms stay and watch"
    Exactly why a good friend of mine quit leading. Fortunately for all involved the only thing he said was "if you guys don't like it, you get up here and lead. "
    Everyone shut up, but he quit shortly after. Which was good, because there would have been an "incident". I'd have paid good money to watch him tell the sissy parents exactly what he thought of them and their whiney bitch children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post

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  10. #40
    Senior Member bobbyrlf3's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    I think the BSA is done, sadly. As was said before, the LDS church (of which I'm a member) is cutting ties with the BSA, and we were its largest supporter. I have been a rifle shooting merit badge counselor for over 7 years. In our area, I also got the opportunity to help with girl's instruction. It was a lot of fun.

    Our program going forward will be contained within the church now.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.

  11. #41
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Went to the big area council meeting on this subject where they played a couple of videos from the director of the BSA on how they want to open new markets, blah, blah, blah.... And then outlined the plans for what they wanted to do with the cub scouts- basically have "separate but equal" cub scouts programs for girls. (Someone pointed out that 'separate but equal' will not pass any lawsuit) For Boy Scouts, they are trying to decide if they partner with another organization that already caters to females, or design their own parallel track that will allow girls to do the same things and earn the same badges (including Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow).

    Discussion got heated with the the actual scouts in attendance offering reasoned and logical arguments why the BOY Scouts should be for BOYS, and continue to lead BOYS into becoming men. Then there were the representatives from sponsoring churches saying that they will not sponsor a co-ed Boy Scouts... and then there were the strident and constantly offended women and California-transplants that were completely irrational and were all about "THERE IS NO WAY I CAN EVER GROW THE STONES TO TELL MY PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE DAUGHTER 'NO' TO ANYTHING, SO WE MUST CHANGE A 107 YEAR OLD PROVEN ORGANIZATION TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR ME!!!!"

    The BSA position was that this is DEFINITELY not about money, and that in NO WAY is the decision already made. Which, as anyone that has had a 9 year old around knows that when they say "There is nothing hidden under the bed!". they we know this is 100% all about money, and the decision has already been made.

    There was a survey that went out afterwards. We filled it out and said this is a REAL bad idea. But, on the bright side, maybe I wont have to go do Popcorn sales this year. Because selling small bags of mediocre popcorn for $20 a bag is just awful.
    So when do they plan on announcing the "final" decision? FWIW in general on this thread, popcorn sales are not about value, you are donating to Scouting and get some popcorn as a thankyou.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  12. #42
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    My buddies kid came up to me one day and was trying to sell me popcorn. I handed him $10 and said put it in the fund, here's 100% pure profit. They'd make more money saying "would you donate a dollar to help a scout?" Rather than selling $20 popcorn.
    But that's for ALL kids fundraisers.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    My buddies kid came up to me one day and was trying to sell me popcorn. I handed him $10 and said put it in the fund, here's 100% pure profit. They'd make more money saying "would you donate a dollar to help a scout?" Rather than selling $20 popcorn.
    But that's for ALL kids fundraisers.
    The Scouts are supposed to "work" for their fundraisers, they are not supposed to just go out and solicit funds. The only entity that can directly donate to a Troop/Pack is their charter organization. My kids learned a lot selling door to door.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    My kids learned a lot selling door to door.
    I did too - learned that almost nobody buys anything.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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    Senior Member JerryBobCo's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    Exactly why a good friend of mine quit leading. Fortunately for all involved the only thing he said was "if you guys don't like it, you get up here and lead. "
    Everyone shut up, but he quit shortly after. Which was good, because there would have been an "incident". I'd have paid good money to watch him tell the sissy parents exactly what he thought of them and their whiney bitch children.
    Many years ago, I coached a youth basketball team. The only reason I coached was because no one else would, and my son wanted to play.

    After a few games, which we lost, I got a phone call from one of the dads with all kinds of great advice. I told him I like his ideas, and asked if he could help me implement them. That's the last time I heard from him.

    I also spent a lot of years as a Boy Scout leader, and took a lot of leader training. It was very time consuming, but I enjoyed it immensely. There were always parents who never helped, but made sure their boys were there for every outing. Some of those kids EARNED their Eagle, too.

    Being a youth leader is truly a labor of love. If you look at it any other way, you should not do it.
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  16. #46
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    I did too - learned that almost nobody buys anything.
    My 2 middle sons together sold over $3k the last year they sold popcorn, most kids in our Pack/Troop sold into the $1-2K range easily.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  17. #47
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    My 2 middle sons together sold over $3k the last year they sold popcorn, most kids in our Pack/Troop sold into the $1-2K range easily.
    That's great - it really is! Nobody ever sold anything much around where I grew up. Sigh...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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  18. #48
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    That's great - it really is! Nobody ever sold anything much around where I grew up. Sigh...
    Still have the TV they earned selling it too.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    Still have the TV they earned selling it too.
    Cool beans!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  20. #50
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    The Scouts are supposed to "work" for their fundraisers, they are not supposed to just go out and solicit funds. The only entity that can directly donate to a Troop/Pack is their charter organization. My kids learned a lot selling door to door.
    I get that, and that's a good thing. I'd rather see them work though, rather than be a salesman. I'll admit I'm jaded though, having two girls in multiple activities with multiple fundraisers will do that to a guy. I get the stink eye when I start questioning all the fundraisers, the actual profit margin, and the need for __________(fill in the blank with whoever has their hand out )
    But, I'm more of a thinker than a do what you're told type of person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post

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  21. #51

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Just like everything else in this day and time going too hell and a hand basket. Boy Scouts are not for females and my .02 a c ombat zone isn't either. i know it's not the same but we need too get over all this pc crap.

  22. #52
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryBobCo View Post
    Many years ago, I coached a youth basketball team. The only reason I coached was because no one else would, and my son wanted to play.

    After a few games, which we lost, I got a phone call from one of the dads with all kinds of great advice. I told him I like his ideas, and asked if he could help me implement them. That's the last time I heard from him.

    I also spent a lot of years as a Boy Scout leader, and took a lot of leader training. It was very time consuming, but I enjoyed it immensely. There were always parents who never helped, but made sure their boys were there for every outing. Some of those kids EARNED their Eagle, too.

    Being a youth leader is truly a labor of love. If you look at it any other way, you should not do it.
    That's the way it should be. I've seen kids get their Eagle because dad did most of the work, and I've seen kids with dad's that were either too lazy to help their kid or realized it is about the kid doing it not the parent. You could tell those kids that did the work themselves and later in life it showed. One I know did it himself. His stepdad was an older guy and had a lot of irons in the fire, so the kid did most all the work himself. He had a lot of love from both his mother AND the step father and moral support but he did the thinking and work himself. That boy is a college graduate, he's a supervisor in one of the local plants, and he has been the Grand Commander of the Knights Templar of the York Rite of Masonry in the Grand Commandry of the State of Texas, which was no small achievement. So making Eagle and doing it himself made him a man. He is an achiever.



    As for girls getting in Boy Scouts, they have their own organization. If those that want to see girls go into Boy Scouts really want to do this, they need to push Girl Scouts to do more outdoor activities similar to the Boy Scouts and make that organization more like Boy Scouts. But having been a boy I can tell you, there is something to be said for keeping them separate. There's things boys like to do when in the company of other boys without ladies present that would not work if were coed. I'm not talking about what some of you guys are thinking, though that happens too, but there's a lot of just plain comradery and brotherhoood if you will, in organizations like this. This is pure silliness on some peoples part.

    However, having said all that, I have said enough. It takes everything I've got without turning this into a political discussion. So I'll take my marbles and go find another marble game.
    Last edited by snake284; 08-04-2017 at 08:56 PM.
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  23. #53
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny reb View Post
    Just like everything else in this day and time going too hell and a hand basket. Boy Scouts are not for females and my .02 a c ombat zone isn't either. i know it's not the same but we need too get over all this pc crap.
    I don't see it as PC crap. I see it as not telling groups of people "you're not allowed". Whatever the reason my be to exclude them. Be it sex, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability, etc. That said I also am against people trying to force different standards so they can be included. If someone from a traditionally excluded group wants to join give them the chance to try out on equal footing weather that is Navy seal training or the local hs football team.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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  24. #54
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    I don't see it as PC crap. I see it as not telling groups of people "you're not allowed". Whatever the reason my be to exclude them. Be it sex, gender, religion, sexual orientation, disability, etc. That said I also am against people trying to force different standards so they can be included. If someone from a traditionally excluded group wants to join give them the chance to try out on equal footing weather that is Navy seal training or the local hs football team.
    I will add I also don't think the boy scouts as a private organization should necessarily be forced to allow anyone in. They are a private club and it's their choice. But their choices will impact who will allow their kids to join and who will donate their time and money to the organization and may impact the degree to which they are given preferential access to federal resources.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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  25. #55

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    I will add I also don't think the boy scouts as a private organization should necessarily be forced to allow anyone in. They are a private club and it's their choice. But their choices will impact who will allow their kids to join and who will donate their time and money to the organization and may impact the degree to which they are given preferential access to federal resources.
    And the supreme court agrees with you. HOWEVER.... once BSA lets girls in, and tries to pull a 'separate but equal' crap with them, the court will tear that apart and it will be co-ed troops, packs and dens.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    One of the many attractive aspects of Freemasonry is its insistence on not being inclusive (as modern totalitarian-progressives define the term); especially in not admitting women. Masonry is, after all, a fraternity, not a sorority. We prefer to remain true to our historical and traditional roots, "social justice" be damned. The manner in which applicants are voted on to receive the Degrees gives each individual Brother in the Lodge absolute veto power over the application. No matter how many may vote in favor, it only takes one single black cube in the ballot box to "blackball" the application. Every Brother also has the power to object to the passing of an Entered Apprentice to Fellowcraft, or raising a Fellowcraft to the sublime Degree of Master Mason.

    These rules have been in place for over three hundred years, and no one I know in the Fraternity from the Grand Master on down has any interest in changing any of them in the slightest.

  27. #57

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    unbeknownst to me, my wife sent an email to the Girl Scouts asking if her son can join the Girl Scouts. Here is the reply:

    Subject: Boys Joining Girl Scouts-Case # 01844395 [ ref:_00DG0leqU._5000f1EBxYp:ref ]
    Thank you for writing with your question. No, Girl Scouts of the USA has been an all-girl organization since its inception in 1912, with no plans to change who can participate.

    Research shows that girls benefit most from a program designed specifically for them and delivered in an all-girl setting.

    Boys have unique needs and interests as well, which are best addressed by an organization structured to meet their specific needs.


    Sincerely,
    Lauren

    GSUSA Information & Referral Customer Care
    Girl Scouts of the USA
    420 Fifth Avenue
    New York, NY 10018



    Which I find hilarious.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  28. #58

    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by horselips View Post
    One of the many attractive aspects of Freemasonry is its insistence on not being inclusive (as modern totalitarian-progressives define the term); especially in not admitting women. Masonry is, after all, a fraternity, not a sorority. We prefer to remain true to our historical and traditional roots, "social justice" be damned. The manner in which applicants are voted on to receive the Degrees gives each individual Brother in the Lodge absolute veto power over the application. No matter how many may vote in favor, it only takes one single black cube in the ballot box to "blackball" the application. Every Brother also has the power to object to the passing of an Entered Apprentice to Fellowcraft, or raising a Fellowcraft to the sublime Degree of Master Mason.

    These rules have been in place for over three hundred years, and no one I know in the Fraternity from the Grand Master on down has any interest in changing any of them in the slightest.
    Yeah, but the Masons rule the world along with the Bilderbergers and Colonel Sanders. They don't HAVE to change
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Yeah, but the Masons rule the world along with the Bilderbergers and Colonel Sanders. They don't HAVE to change
    Before you ask, NO, I don't know where the Ark of the Covenant is, NO, I've never seen the Holy Grail, and don't even ask me about the DaVinci Code.

  30. #60
    Moderator Linefinder's Avatar
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    Re: Boy Scouts of America wanting to accept Girls as scouts?

    I made Eagle on 23 Sep 1972. Richard Nixon"signed" my certificate. I stayed in for another year, until about the time they issued a new handbook and started giving out beltworn "Skill Awards" for lessons we'd previously taken for granted went along with the rank you held. Not long after I got out, they went to a red beret as headgear.

    Things have to change with the times, but I'm glad I was in when I was in, and not a moment longer.

    20 years later, I went back in as an adult leader at the council level. Wow....things had changed even more.

    If this change is real, I'm not a fan.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
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