Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 31

Thread: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

  1. #1

    Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Next month's edition of the Scientific American has an article titled "More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows". You can read the article at: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...vidence-shows/

    There are too many logical flaws to go over all of them, but my favorite is ...

    Two paragraphs after stating "data don't matter to a lot of people. It was similar in other places I visited. What matters more is APPARENT logic: guns stop criminals, so they keep people safer." The author states "Researchers POSIT that even if keeping a gun at home does thwart the odd break-in, it MAY also change the gun owner's behavior in ways that put that person and his or her family more at risk."

    So there you have it. Your logic is APPARENT; but a guess that something MAY change behavior is presented as well-founded.

    Also, there is the old chestnut that "a gun in the home was ASSOCIATED with a nearly threefold increase in the odds that someone would be killed at home by a family member or intimate acquaintance." The key word is "associated".

    By titling the article the way they did, that sentence conveys the notion that a gun for protection in YOUR home will make you less safe -- but association is not causal.

    For example, the number of people who drown is associated with the sale of ice cream. Is it ice cream that causes people to drown? Is it the likelihood of drowning that causes people to buy ice cream? Or is it something else, like temperature, that cause some people to buy ice cream and others to swim?

    A person with a propensity to violence is more likely to have a gun in the house than a Mennonite. In a home with a propensity to violence one would expect higher gun ownership than average.

    Also, the author states "Overall in Alabama, an estimated 12 percent of residents have PERMISSION to carry concealed firearms, possibly the highest such rate in the country." Possibly the highest such rate in the country, only if you don't count the states, like Vermont and Arkansas, with Constitutional Carry. Remember she doesn't claim that Alabama's do carry, only that they have permission. That sentence shows that Melinda doesn't know her topic.

    And one last favorite! (I told you there are too many examples) The author notes "Kleck counters that the NCVS might underestimate self-defense because people who do not trust government surveyors will be afraid to admit that they used their gun. Yet people who participate in the NCVS are told at the start that they are protected under federal law and that their responses will remain anonymous." How many of you would trust a government survey that promises anonymity?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dellrose TN
    Posts
    17,691

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    How many of you would trust a government survey that promises anonymity?
    That one's right up there on the same level of credibility as "Of course I'll respect you in the morning!"- - - - - -Either way, somebody's about to get screwed!

    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite

  3. #3

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    This old, tired saw pops up every time that gun rights are on the rise. It is another proof of "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

    Stats can be bent and misrepresented to show pretty much any point of view.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  4. #4
    Senior Member early's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Thornton CO
    Posts
    4,871

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    No sense in the police being armed then.
    Not to mention Armed Forces maybe becoming Nonarmed Forces for safety reasons.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  5. #5
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    20,193

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    No sense in the police being armed then.
    Not to mention Armed Forces maybe becoming Nonarmed Forces for safety reasons.
    Yes and just think, if the cops aren't armed then there's no need for groups like BLM. Man this sounds so good that it might be too good to be true...
    Last edited by snake284; 09-26-2017 at 09:38 PM.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  6. #6
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Merrritt Island, FL
    Posts
    14,644

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Balls...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  7. #7
    Moderator Linefinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    3,833

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Guns do not stop crime. That's a true thing.

    Guns stop criminals. That's a true thing.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter

  8. #8
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    24,100

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    This old, tired saw pops up every time that gun rights are on the rise. It is another proof of "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

    Stats can be bent and misrepresented to show pretty much any point of view.
    Yep. I love the usual ominous conclusion of these type studies. It usually gets distilled to "People who have firearms at home are more likely to have a firearms related incident than those who do not."

    THAT'S RIGHT!!! Just like people with pools are much more likely to drown in them that folks that don't HAVE ONE in their house!!!

    And a bunch of morons will just nod their head in agreement. Stupidity in now the norm in America.

    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3,440

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    I always thought it was just common knowledge, but I've known forever that ice cream causes drownings.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    655

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    spoons, forks and knives make people fat.

  11. #11
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Merrritt Island, FL
    Posts
    14,644

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    spoons, forks and knives make people fat.
    And typewriters, pens, pencils, and word processors all cause spelling and grammar mistakes!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3,440

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    This Scientific American article is an interesting sidebar to the firearms debate, but I really don't care whether more guns or fewer guns means less, more or the same amount of crime. These statistics do nothing but cloud the issue with an irrelevancy completely detached from the Constitutional imperative that our individual right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. Period.

  13. #13
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Merrritt Island, FL
    Posts
    14,644

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Good point, Horse!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  14. #14
    Senior Member NN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    22,098

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by horselips View Post
    This Scientific American article is an interesting sidebar to the firearms debate, but I really don't care whether more guns or fewer guns means less, more or the same amount of crime. These statistics do nothing but cloud the issue with an irrelevancy completely detached from the Constitutional imperative that our individual right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. Period.
    My gosh-------where is the real horselips?
    I turned in the key to the can of worms
    They just issued me a new key

  15. #15
    Senior Member SIGgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    very rural New Jersey
    Posts
    1,357

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    As I am certain they did not use FBI reports and statistics for evidence in this publication.
    "Marriage is a hunting permit that allows you only one dear at a time"

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,448

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Well, if we were to be truly technical about it, we could posit that what guns actually stop is RECIDIVISM. I'm OK with that.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee

  17. #17

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Well, if we were to be truly technical about it, we could posit that what guns actually stop is RECIDIVISM. I'm OK with that.
    A gun can stop a specific crime from happening.... but crime as a generic category - maybe
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  18. #18
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    20,193

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Just reading the original post I would say this article is typical anti gun BS. It uses a lot of flexible statistics and a lot of anti gun subtibility to make a vague point the unlearned will fall for.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  19. #19
    Senior Member sgtrock21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,206

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    Just reading the original post I would say this article is typical anti gun BS. It uses a lot of flexible statistics and a lot of anti gun subtibility to make a vague point the unlearned will fall for.
    Yes. Same BS, different day.

  20. #20
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    24,100

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    A gun can stop a specific crime from happening.... but crime as a generic category - maybe
    Next guy I see jaywalking while I'm packing...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  21. #21

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    Next month's edition of the Scientific American has an article titled "More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows". You can read the article at: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...vidence-shows/
    A rebuttal by John Lott and a re-rebuttal is now at: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...fic-american1/

  22. #22
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central MN
    Posts
    9,175

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Mr. Lott needs to write a rebuttal to her rebuttal.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  23. #23
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    24,100

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    Mr. Lott needs to write a rebuttal to her rebuttal.
    Kudos to SA for including a link to Mr. lott's website.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  24. #24
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central MN
    Posts
    9,175

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    Kudos to SA for including a link to Mr. lott's website.
    I would like to see Lott and the author debate in an open forum.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  25. #25

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    Mr. Lott needs to write a rebuttal to her rebuttal.
    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    I would like to see Lott and the author debate in an open forum.
    How do you debate someone who says "Murder victims are murder victims, regardless of weapon or means" in an article about guns and crime?

  26. #26
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    20,193

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    Next month's edition of the Scientific American has an article titled "More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows". You can read the article at: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...vidence-shows/

    There are too many logical flaws to go over all of them, but my favorite is ...

    Two paragraphs after stating "data don't matter to a lot of people. It was similar in other places I visited. What matters more is APPARENT logic: guns stop criminals, so they keep people safer." The author states "Researchers POSIT that even if keeping a gun at home does thwart the odd break-in, it MAY also change the gun owner's behavior in ways that put that person and his or her family more at risk."

    So there you have it. Your logic is APPARENT; but a guess that something MAY change behavior is presented as well-founded.

    Also, there is the old chestnut that "a gun in the home was ASSOCIATED with a nearly threefold increase in the odds that someone would be killed at home by a family member or intimate acquaintance." The key word is "associated".

    By titling the article the way they did, that sentence conveys the notion that a gun for protection in YOUR home will make you less safe -- but association is not causal.

    For example, the number of people who drown is associated with the sale of ice cream. Is it ice cream that causes people to drown? Is it the likelihood of drowning that causes people to buy ice cream? Or is it something else, like temperature, that cause some people to buy ice cream and others to swim?

    A person with a propensity to violence is more likely to have a gun in the house than a Mennonite. In a home with a propensity to violence one would expect higher gun ownership than average.

    Also, the author states "Overall in Alabama, an estimated 12 percent of residents have PERMISSION to carry concealed firearms, possibly the highest such rate in the country." Possibly the highest such rate in the country, only if you don't count the states, like Vermont and Arkansas, with Constitutional Carry. Remember she doesn't claim that Alabama's do carry, only that they have permission. That sentence shows that Melinda doesn't know her topic.

    And one last favorite! (I told you there are too many examples) The author notes "Kleck counters that the NCVS might underestimate self-defense because people who do not trust government surveyors will be afraid to admit that they used their gun. Yet people who participate in the NCVS are told at the start that they are protected under federal law and that their responses will remain anonymous." How many of you would trust a government survey that promises anonymity?
    Who me, well heck, shucky darn!!! man, if the GUBERMINT said it, it must be true!!! Right?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  27. #27
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    20,193

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    This thread has been around for a few months and I think it's getting better with age. But to some it up, I'm gonna take a blind stab and say something that might be equated with the obvious, Guns may not stop crime, but they stop the criminal and after awhile the crimes gotta slow down. Now how brilliant is that?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  28. #28
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central MN
    Posts
    9,175

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    How do you debate someone who says "Murder victims are murder victims, regardless of weapon or means" in an article about guns and crime?
    He needs to debate her live and in person with a moderator, she would look foolish quickly if Mr. Lott is the researcher I think he is.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  29. #29

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    He needs to debate her live and in person with a moderator, she would look foolish quickly if Mr. Lott is the researcher I think he is.
    You need an impartial moderator, not one who is a respected member of the media -- and not one supplied by the Scientific American.

  30. #30
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    24,100

    Re: Guns Do Not Stop Crime

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIRO1989 View Post
    He needs to debate her live and in person with a moderator, she would look foolish quickly if Mr. Lott is the researcher I think he is.
    These folks don't do that. They reach their conclusions by stating a premise they emotionally want to "prove" and then cherry picking the data available just enough to sound like they are right.

    Once they run out of their very limited and totally edited completely out of context "data" points they are done. My sister in law used to do that to me when she was younger and we had environmental and animal rights discussions. Once she ran out of her Sierra Club and PETA brochure bullet points she had nothing and would immediately resort to personal attacks and insults. It was so cute to watch
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •