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Thread: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    Why if you don't bump the shoulder back and the cases are fire formed to the chamber is it not consistent? It should be the most consistent and that's one of two arguments I've heard for 38 years of handloading that is the big plus for neck sizing. You don't work the brass as much and it gives a consistent powder capacity.
    I totally understand mitdr774’s reluctance to get into such a discussion; he works hard, he’s tired and he won’t change his mind under any circumstances. I get that.

    On the other hand Snake, you and I can talk and argue like nobody’s business and have fun doing it. So here goes.

    You’ve been told wrong and you have been doing it wrong for 38 years and N/S can actually damage your rifles. How is that for an opening salvo? (Pegasus must be nuttier than usual.)

    Now you know me, I always back up my statements with data and explanations, so here goes.

    Your two arguments for N/S don’t stand up when you examine them critically. Let’s take the first one: “you don’t work the brass as much.” By that you are saying that N/S does not work the brass as much as F/L sizing. Please tell me in which universe you have EVER seen brass that was overworked by F/L sizing and how could you even tell that was the case? How do you know the brass has been “overworked?”

    In my few weeks of handoading, I have never seen a case that was “overworked by F/L sizing.” I have seen case head separation, I have seen neck splits, I have seen failing shoulders, and most of all, I have seen primer pockets that are so enlarged the primers don’t stay in. I have yet to see a case fail because of F/L sizing overwork.

    Case head separation is caused by someone not knowing how to set their sizing die and it can be discovered by using the technique described in the other thread. But if you set your sizing die properly, it will never happen and I don’t even bother checking that.

    Split necks are caused by the use of standard sizing dies (N/S or F/L) where the mouth of the case is closed more than it should be and then expanded again by the expander ball. This occurs more often from rifles with a generous leade where the case mouth expands more than usual. When you work that case mouth with a standard die over and over again, it will split. You can alleviate that with annealing but even more specifically by eschewing the use of standard dies and using a bushing die with the proper size bushing and placing the expander ball in low Earth orbit where it belongs.

    Failing shoulders is very rare and I have seen that with certain specific ancient calibers and with people using body dies. (Hold that thought, we’ll come back to it.) When you resize the case or more commonly when you use the body die, the shoulders do not go back properly and they crumple. This is very rare, but I have seen it.

    The most common cause of death for a rifle case is the loose primer pocket. This will occur when you foolishly insist on using very stout loads in your rifle. That’s what kills my brass, because I do use very stout loads. I believe I retard the primer pocket expansion by using a small base F/L die from the first sizing as it pushes the case head back together some after each firing. I get 8 loadings with my brass from virgin and then I retire it. By that time the primer is VERY easy to insert.

    Overworking my brass due to sizing? I don’t even know what that would look like. Do you?

    Now that we have shot that first canard down, let’s go after the second one; brace yourself, it’s going to be rough.

    When you neck size, the only thing you are doing is pushing back the neck to a smaller dimension, the body and shoulder of the case are untouched.

    Now, when you fire a cartridge for the first time in your action, the principle of operation is for the case to expand until it is stopped by the chamber and it can’t expand any further. The mouth of the case expands also to obturate the bore and prevent the hot gases from going back into the chamber and your face. Everything goes out the barrel. When the pressure drops, the case shrinks back, a little, and comes off the wall. The bolt rotates the case to break any remaining stickiness and then pulls the fired case out of the chamber.

    Brass has some elasticity inherent to it. This is why the case does shrink back a bit so you can pull it out. However that elasticity can be overcome with too much pressure. This is what happens when a bolt is hard to open. The brass was overworked due to too high a pressure and will not shrink back. When you try to rotate the bolt, the case is stuck to the wall of the chamber and it will not let go easily.

    With me so far?

    Ok. Now when you neck size, you do not bring back the case to a starting volume. The case now has the volume of a fired case that has shrunk back a bit. The next time you fire it the case expands again and shrinks back, but less than the prior time. Your twice-fired case now has an internal volume that is even greater than after the first firing. At some point, the N/S case becomes too difficult to rotate and extract. Neck sizers pull out something called a body die (told you we would come back to it) or may even decide to F/L size the many-times fired case to bring it back to “normal.” That doesn’t really work, the body die will bring it back some, but the brass will also spring back larger because that’s what brass does. So, even after using a body die, you have no clue about the internal volume. If you have to use a body die or if you have to F/L size the case at intervals, you do not have a consistent internal volume, especially between the load prior to the use of the body die and the load right after the use of the body die. You have no consistency from load to load.

    Another reason you use the body die is to set the shoulder back some. This means that in the interval between the first firing and the time you use the body die, the shoulder has expanded, firing after firing. Another area of inconsistency, but it gets worse. This is actually how you damage your rifle.

    Where going to stay with the bolt action here because I think everyone can agree that you really don’t want to neck size for semi-autos, levers and pumps. Why is that? Well, the common answer is these other action types do not have the camming action to chamber a neck sized cartridge. Imagine that.

    Your bolt action should not be used to crush fit a fat cartridge with a too long neck either. If you do that consistently you are damaging your action; the lugs, the handle, etc. They are designed to hold the cartridge in place during ignition, to obturate the bore, not to coax bad cartridges into the chamber.

    But it gets worse. If you have ANY resistance when you open the bolt and pull out the fired cartridge, you’ve got an overpressure situation. That can be caused by a bad load or by an ill-fitting cartridge, either way you are doing damage to your action. I know that a lot of neck sizers decide it’s time to use the body die when the bolt gets really hard to close or open; they are causing damage to their rifles, on top of getting inconsistencies from load to load.

    A properly adjusted F/L resizing die for a single rifle should put the shoulder back about .001 to .002 from fired, squeeze the body and shrink the neck and mouth. When you load a handloaded cartridge, the bolt should close smoothly without any resistance whatsoever. When the shot is taken, you should be able to open the bolt without a hint of resistance then either. If there is any resistance anywhere, you have a problem, if it persists, you are damaging your rifle. If you open your bolt and hear a click at the top of the stroke, you’re really damaging your rifle.

    Yes, I am an F-class shooter; yes, my action alone if $1,400, just the action. My barrels are chambered exactly to my specs using a dummy cartridge with the bullet seated exactly how I want it and just at the lands when the barrel is unfired. The chamber is tight, very tight.

    Because of the tightness of my chamber, I could probably get away with neck sizing the case since it does not have much room for the brass to grow unlike factory rifles with their obese chambers. I F/L size my fired cartridges after every firing because I insist on the highest consistency between loadings and I absolutely must have the smoothest possible action travel. When I am in the middle of a competition, the very last thing I want is to be fighting with the action at every shot. I place the cartridge in the action and I close the bolt just before I fire. It’s ALWAYS as smooth as butter; no resistance. I then pull my 1.5 ounce trigger with the same finger that closed the bolt. When the round is fired and I finish my followthrough, I can open the bolt with the back of my thumb and pull the bolt back and fish out the fired case from the action. Imagine if I had to fight with the bolt at every shot.

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    What about results on paper? Well this is where F/L sizing every time pays off. I load my match ammo in batches of 100 rounds. These 100 rounds stay together in the same box throughout their life. I have 5 boxes of 100 rounds. This is enough ammo for me to participate in the longest matches without having to handload. Each time I seat primers in the cases, I record the count. This tells me how many loadings for each box. I try to use them all in round-robin fashion so that all the boxes are at the same loading count, but that does not always work.

    Last spring during a match for which I had not really prepared, I showed up with 3 different boxes of ammo, with just a dozen or so rounds in each or less. I had cobbled together enough ammo for the match, but as I said, it was spread over 3 boxes. One of them only had about a half dozen rounds in it. Not only that, but the round count was different on all of them. What can I tell you? Work can be a bear and life gets in the way of handloading. I had enough ammo, I was going to shoot.

    During the second relay of the 1000 yard match, I finished the first box, used up the second box and fired a few of the third box. In the same 20 round string.

    When I finished the first box, my last shot was an X, I pulled the round from the second box and fired it, another X. I finished off those rounds without detecting any variation on the target due to the ammo. I got into the third box and fired another X and finished the string soon after. The ammo chambered and extracted the same way and showed up on target with no difference due to the ammo. I would not even try this with neck sized ammo, unless it was all the same generation, maybe.

    After 8 firings of the 500 rounds, I retire the brass and the barrel and start over with a new barrel and a new batch of 500 cases.

    If you’ve read this far, I applaud your persistence. One final fact.

    I suspect all you handloaders have a case guage. I have several for the .308. At the end of life for the prior batch, I took an 8X fired case that had not been resized and placed it in the guage. It fit perfectly! Lots of people are under the impression that using a small base full length sizing die “works the brass hard.” I’m here to tell you that if you ALWAYS use an S/B F/L die, it is no more difficult than a regular die. On the other hand, if your case has ballooned after a few firings and you try to run it through an S/B F/L die, you are going to use foul language. And even if you do succeed at running it through, it will spring back out some again.

    So, if you believe that you know better than I and that you really truly believe neck sizing is better for you and that it’s always worked great for you, by all means, continue to do so and tell me again why you don’t neck size for a semi-auto, lever or pump.

    It’s your rifle to abuse, I baby mine and it’s on its fifth barrel in 4 years.

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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I like beer.

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    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Have you ever measured the case capacity difference between neck sized and FL sized cases?


    For the record, I FL size all my cases.
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I've never neck sized a case. I F/L size useing the method of die adjustment Dan Johnson posted here several years ago.

    I can't confirm or deny what I've read here. I do know that there's no way I can ever devote enough time to loading and shooting that it will matter to me. Even when I retire.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    I like that. It brings to mind Chevy Chase"s immortal words: Teach, you ignorant slut.

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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I like reading different theorys on the reloading process. Peg did a good detailed write up on why to full length size brass.

    Denny
    Last edited by wddodge; 10-14-2017 at 01:38 AM.
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    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    FL Resizing DOES stretch the brass, yes? So do you find yourself trimming your brass more often. 'It has to flow somewhere' to paraphrase Hornady's reloading manuals and they say it does .........increasing the OAL of the brass.

    Here is a good read on the pros and cons of both methods and it presents an alternative by doing both, sorta by bumping back the necks after NK Sizing.

    http://www.accuracy-tech.com/precisi...izing-methods/

    More useful info here

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...&submit=Search
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I see a lot of "I" data and not much from others. While I won't argue with your results, as they're obviously your results, I do wonder about how well those results will apply to others. More importantly to others who aren't F-Class shooters that utilize barrels and chambers cut to very exacting tolerances. While I F/L size all of my cases, I don't do it based on the needs or even the results of a competition shooter. I wonder how well lessons (no doubt some of them hard lessons) learned in competition will translate to the world of sloppier tolerances, longer throats, bigger chambers, varying bores, and other aspects of the general shooting world. I have no doubt that some aspects carry over, but others may actually give you poorer results.

    In some ways I'm reminded of guys who go to the dragstrip, bolt on a set of slicks, and then go no faster, or worse slower, than they did on street tires. Not all competition gear will give good results outside of competition.
    Last edited by breamfisher; 10-11-2017 at 02:50 PM.
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I F/L size all my competition .22lr.
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I'm mildly curious if the op always prescribed to full length sizing. It seems like it wasn't that long ago that most long range shooters argued that full length sizing wasn't necessary and neck sizing was popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
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    Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    I do know that there's no way I can ever devote enough time to loading and shooting that it will matter to me. Even when I retire.

    Say it ain’t so!


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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    Have you ever measured the case capacity difference between neck sized and FL sized cases?


    For the record, I FL size all my cases.
    I did some years back after I got my current match rifle chambered and I don't recall exactly, but it wasn't all that much. As I said, my chamber was cut to my exact specs, and I load the same way all the time; I did not expect a big difference.

    On the other hand, in a factory rifle, the difference will be much more pronounced because factory chambers are cut much bigger than in my match rifle. They have to be able to chamber whatever factory ammo is out there.

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wddodge View Post
    I like reading different theorys on the reloading process. Peg did a good detailed write up on why to full length size brass. I just wish it didn't have the tone of God talking to the unwashed masses..

    Denny
    Yeah, me too. You should remember this post was written in response to posts in another thread.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-11-2017 at 03:29 PM.

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chief View Post
    FL Resizing DOES stretch the brass, yes? So do you find yourself trimming your brass more often. 'It has to flow somewhere' to paraphrase Hornady's reloading manuals and they say it does .........increasing the OAL of the brass.

    Here is a good read on the pros and cons of both methods and it presents an alternative by doing both, sorta by bumping back the necks after NK Sizing.

    http://www.accuracy-tech.com/precisi...izing-methods/

    More useful info here

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...&submit=Search
    Tell me again how F/L resizing DOES stretch the brass while N/S doesn't.

    In fact the main reason for the brass stretching during a sizing operation is because of the expander ball; it pulls the neck as you extract it. I loather expander ball; using a bushing die avoids the problem completely.

    But firing the case will cause the brass to flow forward; that's just the way it works. Making sure the case was resized exactly to fit in your chamber as I described earlier and eliminating the expander will lead to longer case life. I trim/chamfer/deburr my brass after each sizing operation. It takes me less than 5 minutes to process 100 cases. The amount of material removed is minimal, almost non existent, but it ensures consistency.

    As for the neck sizing with the shoulder bump, if you still have to periodically use a body die, you're causing damage to your rifle and you avoid consistency.

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by breamfisher View Post
    I see a lot of "I" data and not much from others. While I won't argue with your results, as they're obviously your results, I do wonder about how well those results will apply to others. More importantly to others who aren't F-Class shooters that utilize barrels and chambers cut to very exacting tolerances. While I F/L size all of my cases, I don't do it based on the needs or even the results of a competition shooter. I wonder how well lessons (no doubt some of them hard lessons) learned in competition will translate to the world of sloppier tolerances, longer throats, bigger chambers, varying bores, and other aspects of the general shooting world. I have no doubt that some aspects carry over, but others may actually give you poorer results.

    In some ways I'm reminded of guys who go to the dragstrip, bolt on a set of slicks, and then go no faster, or worse slower, than they did on street tires. Not all competition gear will give good results outside of competition.
    The reason for the use of "I" is because, as you well know, I only talk about things I know well.

    As for others, I know of no top-flight Highpower (F-class, Match and SR) that neck sizes.

    But going back to the non-competition shooter, with a factory rifle; this applies far more to those rifles than to the match rifles we use in competition. The tolerances in my match rifle are very high and the brass will grow very little and pop back in close to virgin. I could probably get away with neck sizing for a while but the lack of consistency from load to load will hurt me and you have the issue with the bolt opening and closing.

    Just remember, if it is recommended that you DO NOT neck resize for semi-autos, levers and pumps, why the heck not? What makes bolt action so special in that respect?

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    I'm mildly curious if the op always prescribed to full length sizing. It seems like it wasn't that long ago that most long range shooters argued that full length sizing wasn't necessary and neck sizing was popular.

    I've been competing at long range for almost 35 years and handloading for as long. In the early years, we were issued ammo at the matches (Palma) but later on we were allowed to use our own handloads. I've always F/L resized and I have never heard other LR shooters advocating for neck sizing.

    I do know that benchresters used to neck size or not even resize, but they are a special group with actions cut to exact specifications and they have just a few cases that they use over and over again. It's a different world. I understand they now F/L size, but I don't know for sure; I know virtually nothing of benchrest, so I don't talk about it.

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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    The reason for the use of "I" is because, as you well know, I only talk about things I know well.

    As for others, I know of no top-flight Highpower (F-class, Match and SR) that neck sizes.

    But going back to the non-competition shooter, with a factory rifle; this applies far more to those rifles than to the match rifles we use in competition. The tolerances in my match rifle are very high and the brass will grow very little and pop back in close to virgin. I could probably get away with neck sizing for a while but the lack of consistency from load to load will hurt me and you have the issue with the bolt opening and closing.

    Just remember, if it is recommended that you DO NOT neck resize for semi-autos, levers and pumps, why the heck not? What makes bolt action so special in that respect?
    IF you had any experience reloading for semi-autos, pumps, and lever rifles, then you'd know the answer to your question of why reloads for those rifles are full length resized. I'll let you 'dope it out' as to why and maybe you can figure it out. It's a bonehead simple reason.
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I was grouping long range and benchrest shooters together not realizing there is a big difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    I was grouping long range and benchrest shooters together not realizing there is a big difference.
    There is a huge difference. Becnhrest shooters have their own targets, rules, equipment and most times they only shoot at 100 and 200 yards. I believe they also shoot at 300 yards and I know there is some kind of discipline that shoots benchrest at 1000 yards.

    In long range, you have Palma, fullbore, highpower (match, f-class (both divisions), service rifle and any/any.) Most of these start at 300 yards and got to 1000 and beyond. There's also PRS and many other disciplines. Benchrest is unique and their rifles do not really look like rifles.

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    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    IF you had any experience reloading for semi-autos, pumps, and lever rifles, then you'd know the answer to your question of why reloads for those rifles are full length resized. I'll let you 'dope it out' as to why and maybe you can figure it out. It's a bonehead simple reason.
    I suspect you did not read my wall of data above. Nevertheless, I'm waiting with bated breath.

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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    I suspect you did not read my wall of data above. Nevertheless, I'm waiting with bated breath.
    Uh... that's not data. That's observations. There's no values to what you see, just that it's happened. For all we know it could be supposition, or you seeing a correlation and attributing an incorrect causation.
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    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    Tell me again how F/L resizing DOES stretch the brass while N/S doesn't.

    In fact the main reason for the brass stretching during a sizing operation is because of the expander ball; it pulls the neck as you extract it. I loather expander ball; using a bushing die avoids the problem completely.

    But firing the case will cause the brass to flow forward; that's just the way it works. Making sure the case was resized exactly to fit in your chamber as I described earlier and eliminating the expander will lead to longer case life. I trim/chamfer/deburr my brass after each sizing operation. It takes me less than 5 minutes to process 100 cases. The amount of material removed is minimal, almost non existent, but it ensures consistency.

    As for the neck sizing with the shoulder bump, if you still have to periodically use a body die, you're causing damage to your rifle and you avoid consistency.
    Not according to Hornady, read any of their manuals and they explain and illustrate that brass will flow upward when you FL Resize, not just from the the neck, but from the brass case body down by the bottom and when you use a FL dies it squeezes the brass back in to spec and it flows upwards, thus increasing the OAL of the brass case.

    They say NK sizing only stops the brass from needing trimming nearly as much. You trim after every firing you say.......next time you are at the bench don't and watch it "Grow" as you FL resize it a few times. That's the whole point to enhance accuracy by a better fit and to avoid having to trim the brass all the time and a better chamber fit to a particular bolt rifle isn't it for those who choose to NK size only?

    You may alleviate the brass stretching a little during FL resizing with special bushings/expanders , but I think the brass will still flow upward through the case body from down by the head region.

    I FL resize more than I NK size only, but for a couple calibers like the .303 British, NK sizing pays off in brass life.
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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Pegasus,

    I appreciate your time and effort to explain what you know to those of us with much less experience. I like to joke about your authoritarian writing style, but it doesn't offend me. A person knows what he knows and I have no problem with trying to manually insert knowledge into the head of a person who has misconceptions that are based on hearsay evidence, unproven theory, or anecdotal evidence 'gleaned' from his own improperly controlled experiments. There are dozens of ways for us poorly disciplined shooters to get some (or all) of the variables jumbled. I know from personal experience that when I get tired of trying to solve a problem, but finally do come up with something that works, I often misdiagnose the elements that actually combined to give me the desired results. Everyone wants to feel like they did something smart, but often success comes from simply doing enough trial and error to improve the odds of getting lucky.

    The reason I neck sized cases for my 50 year old .30-06 was that somebody suggested it to me when I had become frustrated with not finding a combination that would yield MOA. Honestly, I mixed variables so much, it was a wonder that I ever came up with something that worked. It just happened that neck sizing was one of the things I changed, among 2 or 3 others that I changed at the same time. The variable that actually made the difference was probably changing the COAL to get the bullet closer to the lands. But, once I found the solution, I didn't tinker with anything, including the neck sizing. The load still gives me a cold bore bulls eye every time, and has killed three whitetails with perfect shots, so it would be bad luck to change it.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chief View Post
    Not according to Hornady, read any of their manuals and they explain and illustrate that brass will flow upward when you FL Resize, not just from the the neck, but from the brass case body down by the bottom and when you use a FL dies it squeezes the brass back in to spec and it flows upwards, thus increasing the OAL of the brass case.

    They say NK sizing only stops the brass from needing trimming nearly as much. You trim after every firing you say.......next time you are at the bench don't and watch it "Grow" as you FL resize it a few times. That's the whole point to enhance accuracy by a better fit and to avoid having to trim the brass all the time and a better chamber fit to a particular bolt rifle isn't it for those who choose to NK size only?

    You may alleviate the brass stretching a little during FL resizing with special bushings/expanders , but I think the brass will still flow upward through the case body from down by the head region.

    I FL resize more than I NK size only, but for a couple calibers like the .303 British, NK sizing pays off in brass life.
    I suspect you didn't read through my entire OP or you missed the part where I talk about end of life for my cases. The only reason I take my cases out of commission if because of the primer pocket expansion; the pockets don't hold the primer all that well anymore after 8-10 firings. I now use a 4000 round limit on my match barrels and that's 8 loadings of my 500 cases.

    As I explained, the only reason I trim after every loading is for ultimate consistency. The amount of material removed by the trimmer is insignificant, but it gives the case mouth a nice consistent bevel. Even with my stout loads, the cases grow very little, thanks to the use of bushing dies and no expander ball to stretch the case.

    Brass is a consumable. Barrels are consumables. My action is not.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-11-2017 at 05:38 PM.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    Pegasus,

    I appreciate your time and effort to explain what you know to those of us with much less experience. I like to joke about your authoritarian writing style, but it doesn't offend me. A person knows what he knows and I have no problem with trying to manually insert knowledge into the head of a person who has misconceptions that are based on hearsay evidence, unproven theory, or anecdotal evidence 'gleaned' from his own improperly controlled experiments. There are dozens of ways for us poorly disciplined shooters to get some (or all) of the variables jumbled. I know from personal experience that when I get tired of trying to solve a problem, but finally do come up with something that works, I often misdiagnose the elements that actually combined to give me the desired results. Everyone wants to feel like they did something smart, but often success comes from simply doing enough trial and error to improve the odds of getting lucky.

    The reason I neck sized cases for my 50 year old .30-06 was that somebody suggested it to me when I had become frustrated with not finding a combination that would yield MOA. Honestly, I mixed variables so much, it was a wonder that I ever came up with something that worked. It just happened that neck sizing was one of the things I changed, among 2 or 3 others that I changed at the same time. The variable that actually made the difference was probably changing the COAL to get the bullet closer to the lands. But, once I found the solution, I didn't tinker with anything, including the neck sizing. The load still gives me a cold bore bulls eye every time, and has killed three whitetails with perfect shots, so it would be bad luck to change it.
    Bisley, I appreciate the note. I suspect you don't go through the same volume of ammo in your 5- year old .30-06 as I do in my match rifle. As long as your bolt cycling is as smooth as butter and you have no resistance closing or opening it, have at it.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    This is interesting on NK sizers...........the Lee Collet ones do not require any lube, Hornady does. Less neck run out using the Lee die. My NK sizing only dies are all Lee Collet.

    I wish he would have measured the fired brass OAL before his test and then did a FL resize on some and compared the difference too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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  29. #29
    Senior Member Ernie Bishop's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    No doubt Erik Cortina had fun making this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"

  30. #30
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie Bishop View Post
    No doubt Erik Cortina had fun making this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g
    Erik is a funny guy. And a heck of a shooter. I'll mention the video the next time I see him.

    ETA: Just saw the video. Strange, he makes some of the same arguments I do. He must be all wrong.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-11-2017 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Saw the video

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