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Thread: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

  1. #31
    Senior Member LMLarsen's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Lighten up, Francis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.
    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #32
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    I suspect you did not read my wall of data above. Nevertheless, I'm waiting with bated breath.
    So, In other words, you don't know.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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  3. #33
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie Bishop View Post
    No doubt Erik Cortina had fun making this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g
    This is what ends the argument for me. When people who compete do things a certain way, there's a reason. When people who compete and win use X product (throwing out marketing wank and sponsorship BS) there's a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    This is what ends the argument for me. When people who compete do things a certain way, there's a reason. When people who compete and win use X product (throwing out marketing wank and sponsorship BS) there's a reason.
    When a big match is over, like the Nationals or the Worlds, lots of the people ask for a parts list of the rifles and ammo of the shooters and teams who medaled. It's only natural to look at what the winners use.

    You can be sure that if one specific thing or process was identified as being instrumental in winning, people would flock to it. An example of that was the move from 6.5-284 to 7mm for the F-Open guys after that adventure in Bisley some years back. In F-TR, the move has been to heavier bullets in the 200-215gr category about 3 years ago.

    Of course equipment is important, but marksmanship is critical; you have to know how to use the equipment in the first place. Erik knows a great deal about handloading and he's a great shooter. What's even better however, is that he is willing to share his knowledge with anyone. That last is not unique as most top shooters are like that, which I think is a credit to the sport.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Well for normal stock rifle shooters with normal chambers this is why some folks like Lee Collet NK sizing dies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOzhm-ILyts
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Nothing wrong with FL resizing either or using bushings or whatever for your purposes. Like anything else, you can take reloading to the Nth Degree.

    Shooters have different requirements for their ammo and guns, could be precision or game hunting, informal/formal target shootin or whatever. Doesn't matter as long as it is done/performs safely for you and your guns.

    Whatever works for you and everyone else on here, I'm OK with it, whether I do it the same way or not.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    The "normal stock" rifles are more susceptible to the growth problem with neck sizing. But there is another thing to consider also; the amount of rounds shot.

    My match rifle sees a LOT more ammo through it than any of my other rifles, though that is tapering off now. As I explained earlier, I have 500 cases in the rotation and I drop my barrel at 4000 rounds equivalent to 8 loadings. I'm on my fifth barrel in 5 years (I think I said 4 years last time, but I forgot that I got the rifle at the end of 2012 and I was able to push about 400 rounds through it before the end of the year.)

    I would guess that most people with normal stock rifles don't shoot anywhere this amount of ammo in their normal stock rifles with normal chambers, so they don't worry so much about the hard bolt closing and opening. When I used to go to public ranges, I remember seeing people fight with the bolt action rifles, and even some with rubber mallets they used to pound on the bolt handle. Brrrr.

  8. #38
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Lee collet dies make excellent trot line weights. Not a fan of the lines they leave on the case, nor when the collet hangs up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chief View Post
    Nothing wrong with FL resizing either or using bushings or whatever for your purposes. Like anything else, you can take reloading to the Nth Degree.

    Shooters have different requirements for their ammo and guns, could be precision or game hunting, informal/formal target shootin or whatever. Doesn't matter as long as it is done/performs safely for you and your guns.

    Whatever works for you and everyone else on here, I'm OK with it, whether I do it the same way or not.
    Well there's the rub. That bolded section above. I don't think people realize the damage they are doing to their rifles when these are difficult to close or open because the necksize case has expanded. Again, maybe they don't shoot anywhere near enough to make a differences, but we don't know that. I read all the time on various forums where people talk about neck sizing for a few loadings and when the bolt really gets too difficult to open, they F/L size or use a body. They think they're getting longer case life but what they are doing is trading case life for action life. Bad choice in my opinion. But they don't know because they've always done it that way and it's worked fine for them.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Go read any Hornady reloading manual and look at the illustrations and read the explanations before you condemn NK/Bump only resizing, they explain it much better than I can. They explain what happens to brass when you chamber and fire a round in your rifle and the different ways pressures behave from how you process and reload your brass and case life/effects on cases as result of using one way or the other.
    Last edited by Big Chief; 10-12-2017 at 01:10 AM.
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    How do you set up the F/L sizing where you don't get case separation at the base. I have never had one but it is pure luck. I F.L. everytime . I'm sure it's dumb luck. And to show how dumb I am, what is a S/B/F/L die?

  12. #42
    Moderator Linefinder's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Someday I'm going to figure out how to damage my hardened steel rifle with a piece of hollow soft brass.

    I'll get back to you when I figure out how to do it.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
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    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Linefinder View Post
    Someday I'm going to figure out how to damage my hardened steel rifle with a piece of hollow soft brass.

    I'll get back to you when I figure out how to do it.

    Mike
    Most folks here gasp in horror about the thought of someone using an aluminum cleaning rod or not using a chamber guide. And the difference is?
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
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  14. #44
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by big elk View Post
    How do you set up the F/L sizing where you don't get case separation at the base. I have never had one but it is pure luck. I F.L. everytime . I'm sure it's dumb luck. And to show how dumb I am, what is a S/B/F/L die?
    SBFL is small base full length resizing die. I have those in .223 and .308 Win. because I buy milsurp once fired brass for reloading. Regular full length die will not take it down to SAAMI spec. according to my case gauges for those cartridges. And they definitely won't chamber in any of my rifles without being run through the small base die first. I suspect most of the milsurp brass is from firing from machine guns that tend to have 'fat' chambers and allow for more case expansion than from an M4 or other rifle shooting the .308.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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  15. #45
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    Most folks here gasp in horror about the thought of someone using an aluminum cleaning rod or not using a chamber guide. And the difference is?
    Has nothing to do with brass rubbing. Has to do with the necksized cases putting more pressure on the locking lugs when you open and close the bolt. Yes, they are hardened. But, you are putting more pressure on them.
    Will mere mortals wear out a rifle in a lifetime? No. Competition shooters? Possibly.
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    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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  17. #47
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    Has nothing to do with brass rubbing. Has to do with the necksized cases putting more pressure on the locking lugs when you open and close the bolt. Yes, they are hardened. But, you are putting more pressure on them.
    Will mere mortals wear out a rifle in a lifetime? No. Competition shooters? Possibly.
    That is exactly correct, but there's more. The bolt of a rifle is made of hardened steel as Linefinder stated above, but it is designed to open and close smoothly. The principle of operation here is to put the 2 or 3 lugs of the bolt body in front of the corresponding lugs at the front of the action. When the round fires, the case expands to the limits of the chamber, the rear of which is the bolt face held in place by the lugs of the bolt in front of the lugs of the action. With me so far?

    Now, as I explained earlier, the action of opening the bolt causes the bolt to rotate, which has the secondary effect of breaking whatever stickiness may remain between the chamber wall and the fired case. If the case is too long, it puts pressure on the bolt face. No big deal compared to the firing of the case, but the difference here is that you have the bolt lugs rubbing against the lugs in the action. So the soft brass is not rubbing against the steel, but it makes the steel rub against the steel.

    Now, I'm sure people never forget to grease the lugs on their bolts. My last action when I finish cleaning my rifles, especially my match rifle, is to put some high temp grease on the back of the lugs of my bolt. I then close and open the bolt several times to make sure it's all greased up and opens and closes smoothly; like butter.

    If you don't grease you lugs, you probably frown on having oil in the engine.

    After about 20 thousand cycles, the lugs still look pristine, brand new, highly polished.

    Another aspect of a hard-to-open bolt is the amount of force applied to the bolt handle. I have seen people beat their bolt handles to the point these pop off. Not all bolt handles are made the same way.

  18. #48
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by big elk View Post
    How do you set up the F/L sizing where you don't get case separation at the base. I have never had one but it is pure luck. I F.L. everytime . I'm sure it's dumb luck. And to show how dumb I am, what is a S/B/F/L die?
    As tennmike stated above, an S/B F/L die is a small base full length resizing die. The difference between it and a regular die is the base of the die is tighter than the regular die to provide more "squeezing power" at the bottom of the case, near the base next to the extraction groove.

    When you fire a stout load, you want to measure the OD just a few tenths above the extraction groove. If the OD has increased more than .002 or .003 from virgin you have a pressure issue. A small base die will help in reducing or controlling that. Somewhat. Years ago, I found that using an S/B die was something you needed to do from the first firing. If you tried to use it after a few firings and the base had expanded too much, the force needed to run that case through the S/B die was more than I wanted to continue using for hundreds of cases, even with Imperial Wax. and the base wasn't reducing much anyway. It was insulting. On the other hand, using an S/B die from the first firing does not require any more force during sizing than using a regular die. My hypothesis is that by controlling the expansion of the base, I retard the expansion of the primer pocket somewhat. I'm not married to that hypothesis, and that's not why I use an S/B die; I do it for consistency, load to load. I recently discovered that other top flight F-class competitors are now espousing the same views. (What do they say about imitation being a form of flattery?)

    Now to your first question, how do I set up the F/L die in the first place?
    Here's how I do it. When I get a new barrel chambered and fitted, I also start with a new batch of virgin brass. Prior to the first firing, I run a mandrel through the mouth of the case to round it out and remove any dings. I then run the brass through my Giraud trimmer to get a nice bevel; very little material gets removed but the cases all look like little jewels, ready for loading.

    Next, using a comparator, I measure the distance between the base of the case and the datum point on the shoulder. Hornady sells a nice set of inserts to do that with your caliper. Easy to do. I measure a sampling of virgin cases and I records the data. Then I prime the cases, charge powder and seat bullets. I do NOT resize virgin brass. There is nothing that I can do to make them better, the dings in the mouths were removed with my mandrel. In fact, if you resize virgin brass and your sizing die is set wrong you can create problems for your brass, that did not exist before you resized.

    When I return from firing what used to be virgin brass, I pull out the comparator and measure the same thing again. I do this with several case and record the data. From there, I can see what the average is. This is the length of your brass, after firing in your chamber and shrinking back a little bit, very little shrinking. My goal is to push back the chamber so that the caliper will show me that fired length minus .001 or .002. I now have my target value, time for the sizing die adjustment.

    The instructions on a sizing die is to screw it down until it hits the shellholder on the raised arm then add or subtract a partial twist. I forget. I start with the die just at the shellholder. I run the case through slowly, leave it in the die for a second or two and then pull it out. Back to the caliper. I lower or raise the die depending on what's needed. Once I have what I think is correct, I run a few more cases through and measure those. When I have what I want, I lock down the die ring. You can also use Redding Competition shellholders to help you with that. It's a set of shellholders with increasing thickness. I have a couple of sets, but I am able to get the die adjusted with a regular Redding shellholder.

    Another way to do this if you do not have a caliper, it to actually chamber a resized round to check to see how the bolt closes. You twist the die in small increments until you are able to close the bolt without detecting any resistance whatsoever. Ad another eight of a twist and lock it down.

    Now, I know some of you are asking "why did we record the length of virgin brass? You didn't use that value." Great question, I'm so glad you reminded me.

    We recorded the length of the virgin brass for two reasons. 1- We wanted to have a baseline. 2- If we load for multiple rifles this would be the target length for our resizing die. Ok, there is a third reason. We want to see how much the brass expanded in our chamber. This will indicate if you have a headspace issue in your rifle. In my match rifle, the difference was less than .002, but remember that I had the chamber cut to my specs. It's been a very long time since I measured other rifles, but they're all .308 or .223 so I use whatever I have for my match rifles.

    I use Lapua virgin brass exclusively for my match rifle, and they provide consistent brass, which I buy in lots of 500 or 1000 at a time.

    One final thought on the issue of primer pockets. I have been using Lapua .308 Palma brass. These cases have a small rifle primer pocket which provides additional strength at the base of the case by virtue of having a smaller pocket, thus more brass in the base. This is how I get away with very stout loads.

    I hope that answers your questions.

  19. #49
    Senior Member early's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Hunters don't want any lube anywhere near the action.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  20. #50
    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    Hunters don't want any lube anywhere near the action.
    I always kept my actions fairly dry when I hunt to keep dirt and debris from sticking to things but if Pegasus says I should grease it, maybe I should. I'm going to go outside now and put oil in my trucks engine.
    Who else just learned how a bolt action rifle works? The whole move the bolt knobbie thingy and lugs rotate and hold the bullet against the back of the barrel. I always thought it was some voodoo magic until now.
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
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  21. #51
    Senior Member Ernie Bishop's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I use or have a very light film of grease behind or on the back of my recoil lugs
    Ernie

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  22. #52
    Senior Member Fisheadgib's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie Bishop View Post
    I use or have a very light film of grease behind or on the back of my recoil lugs
    I have a friend that actually uses corn oil to lube his rifle. He's a pretty competant deer hunter and he claims that the smell of corn oil doesn't alarm deer like other lubricants.
    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
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  23. #53
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie Bishop View Post
    I use or have a very light film of grease behind or on the back of my recoil lugs
    Yeah, I like gun grease much more than gun oil for lubrication.

  24. #54
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    I have a friend that actually uses corn oil to lube his rifle. He's a pretty competant deer hunter and he claims that the smell of corn oil doesn't alarm deer like other lubricants.
    Did he happen to mention which brand he favors? Mazola? Crisco?

  25. #55
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I either use a atomized graphite in alcohol suspension for that, and the bolt raceways, and trigger, or a graphite grease. Depends on what is within reach at the time. Graphite in atomized form is Nature's baby ball bearings, and in a grease form is doubly so. And it's messy, and like Brylcreem, a little dab will do ya. The graphite grease is a light grease and doesn't stiffen up in cold weather like other grease products; baby ball bearing thing. And the alcohol suspended graphite is my go-to for .22 LR rifles of any action type. It being a non grease or oil lubricant, it doesn't attract that nasty powder crud.
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  26. #56
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Yeah, for what I do, cold is not a problem. In south Texas, the coldest I've ever competed in was about 35 degrees in the morning. It really helped cool the rifle between matches. Raton, and Phoenix (sites of the last few Nationals) and not cold places in August and October respectively. Lodi was a little cool, but more damp than other places. Connaught was cool in August, starting in the low 50s, going to the low 70s.

    The barrel gets hot at all those places, but cools at different rates depending on where I am. That's why I use a fan in Texas and AZ but not needed in Lodi and Connaught.

    During a multi day match, I clean the bolt and the action and regrease it every night.

    I also carry spare firing pin springs. I change them every 2000 to 2500 rounds. These puppies wear out after a while and if you don't change them out, you'll get misfires. So, I always have one spare and the tool to change it out. I clean and lubricate the firing pin and the spring every few matches.

  27. #57
    Senior Member early's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I've seen times in severe cold that the focus and power knobs on optics wouldn't turn. Also had a striker in a rifle that wouldn't stike hard enough to detonate the primer because of cold oil.

    Not likely to cycle the action more than a few times on a hunt. The one time I needed repeat shots, it worked fine dry.

    I do have powdered graphite if it seems like things need it.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  28. #58
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I suppose now would be a good time to post the instructions on bolt break-in again. Been a while, and some folks are new, and some may have not copied and pasted the instructions into a Word or Notepad file.

    Here are the instructions:

    Instructions for bolt break-in.
    Warning: ALL instructions must be followed exactly; NO deviations.

    You will need:
    A fire with a good bed of coals and additional firewood as necessary.
    One cast iron pot deep enough to submerge the bolt nose first and completely immerse the bolt. This point is critical; NO OTHER MATERIAL CAN BE SUBSTITUTED FOR THE CAST IRON POT! Bad things will happen if you do.
    Enough heavy oil, such as 90W gear oil to completely submerge the bolt.
    A piece of wrought iron wire to suspend the bolt in the oil. A wrought iron rod to suspend the bolt above bottom of the pot.

    Two wrought iron stakes to suspend the bolt, wire, and crosspiece when the bolt is removed from the boiling oil.

    One piece of virgin unbleached heavy cotton cloth in which the bolt will be wrapped after the bolt has drained all excess oil from its interior and exterior surfaces.

    Place cast iron pot on the coals and pour in oil to get heated to a light small bubbling boil.
    Attach wrought iron wire to bolt handle, and attach a wrought iron rod to other end of wire to suspend bolt in the boiling oil.

    Once the oil is boiling the bolt is submerged in the oil and the incantation begins. IT MUST BE MEMORIZED AS YOU CANNOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE POT! The sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are lurking in the shadows! They wait in the shadows for any sign of inattention and will launch an attack on the bolt. Soak time in the boiling oil is one hour exactly; no more and no less.

    The incantation:

    Bolt be placed in boiling oil,
    bolt produced from sweaty toil.
    Oil creep in and soak the pores,
    all the threads and counter bores.
    Make this bolt as slick as glass,
    that through the action it will pass,
    With not a scrape or binding be,
    so fast that keen eyes cannot see.
    Seal the bolt from weather's ire,
    that no rust its surface mire.

    Firing pin and spring of steel,
    oil creeps in your heart to seal.
    And make the lock time blazing fast,
    that make groups shrink at muzzle blast.
    And make the firing pin strike true,
    off center hits will never do.
    Oil soak in, do your work,
    wherever dry spots tend to lurk.

    Locking lugs soak in the oil,
    that your fine surface will not spoil.
    No galling will you ever see,
    you will be slick, and always be.
    Sharp leading edges sweep the grit,
    from your bright surface they would pit.
    Oil penetrate in every pore,
    protect this bolt forevermore.

    Once the incantation is complete, the bolt must be watched until the one hour time is up. Never take your eyes off the submerged bolt during this time, as the sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are waiting to attack!

    Once the hour is up, and you have successfully fended off the sprite attacks, the bolt is removed from the pot and suspended on the wrough iron stakes. It must remain there until all excess oil has drained from the bolt. After no more oil drips from the bolt, wrap it in the virgin unbleached cotton cloth. It must remain in the cloth until it is placed back in the rifle action.

    Having revealed this to you I can never use it again myself. Revealing this White Magic has turned it against me and were I to attemp to use it, the bolt lugs would surely gall, the firing pin break along with the spring, and the primers would always be hit off center.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  29. #59
    Senior Member early's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    I suppose now would be a good time to post the instructions on bolt break-in again. Been a while, and some folks are new, and some may have not copied and pasted the instructions into a Word or Notepad file.

    Here are the instructions:

    Instructions for bolt break-in.
    Warning: ALL instructions must be followed exactly; NO deviations.

    You will need:
    A fire with a good bed of coals and additional firewood as necessary.
    One cast iron pot deep enough to submerge the bolt nose first and completely immerse the bolt. This point is critical; NO OTHER MATERIAL CAN BE SUBSTITUTED FOR THE CAST IRON POT! Bad things will happen if you do.
    Enough heavy oil, such as 90W gear oil to completely submerge the bolt.
    A piece of wrought iron wire to suspend the bolt in the oil. A wrought iron rod to suspend the bolt above bottom of the pot.

    Two wrought iron stakes to suspend the bolt, wire, and crosspiece when the bolt is removed from the boiling oil.

    One piece of virgin unbleached heavy cotton cloth in which the bolt will be wrapped after the bolt has drained all excess oil from its interior and exterior surfaces.

    Place cast iron pot on the coals and pour in oil to get heated to a light small bubbling boil.
    Attach wrought iron wire to bolt handle, and attach a wrought iron rod to other end of wire to suspend bolt in the boiling oil.

    Once the oil is boiling the bolt is submerged in the oil and the incantation begins. IT MUST BE MEMORIZED AS YOU CANNOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE POT! The sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are lurking in the shadows! They wait in the shadows for any sign of inattention and will launch an attack on the bolt. Soak time in the boiling oil is one hour exactly; no more and no less.

    The incantation:

    Bolt be placed in boiling oil,
    bolt produced from sweaty toil.
    Oil creep in and soak the pores,
    all the threads and counter bores.
    Make this bolt as slick as glass,
    that through the action it will pass,
    With not a scrape or binding be,
    so fast that keen eyes cannot see.
    Seal the bolt from weather's ire,
    that no rust its surface mire.

    Firing pin and spring of steel,
    oil creeps in your heart to seal.
    And make the lock time blazing fast,
    that make groups shrink at muzzle blast.
    And make the firing pin strike true,
    off center hits will never do.
    Oil soak in, do your work,
    wherever dry spots tend to lurk.

    Locking lugs soak in the oil,
    that your fine surface will not spoil.
    No galling will you ever see,
    you will be slick, and always be.
    Sharp leading edges sweep the grit,
    from your bright surface they would pit.
    Oil penetrate in every pore,
    protect this bolt forevermore.

    Once the incantation is complete, the bolt must be watched until the one hour time is up. Never take your eyes off the submerged bolt during this time, as the sprites of slow lock time and galled locking lugs are waiting to attack!

    Once the hour is up, and you have successfully fended off the sprite attacks, the bolt is removed from the pot and suspended on the wrough iron stakes. It must remain there until all excess oil has drained from the bolt. After no more oil drips from the bolt, wrap it in the virgin unbleached cotton cloth. It must remain in the cloth until it is placed back in the rifle action.

    Having revealed this to you I can never use it again myself. Revealing this White Magic has turned it against me and were I to attemp to use it, the bolt lugs would surely gall, the firing pin break along with the spring, and the primers would always be hit off center.
    I think you and Sush are taping the same barrel
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  30. #60
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    I totally understand mitdr774’s reluctance to get into such a discussion; he works hard, he’s tired and he won’t change his mind under any circumstances. I get that.

    On the other hand Snake, you and I can talk and argue like nobody’s business and have fun doing it. So here goes.

    You’ve been told wrong and you have been doing it wrong for 38 years and N/S can actually damage your rifles. How is that for an opening salvo? (Pegasus must be nuttier than usual.)

    Now you know me, I always back up my statements with data and explanations, so here goes.

    Your two arguments for N/S don’t stand up when you examine them critically. Let’s take the first one: “you don’t work the brass as much.” By that you are saying that N/S does not work the brass as much as F/L sizing. Please tell me in which universe you have EVER seen brass that was overworked by F/L sizing and how could you even tell that was the case? How do you know the brass has been “overworked?”

    In my few weeks of handoading, I have never seen a case that was “overworked by F/L sizing.” I have seen case head separation, I have seen neck splits, I have seen failing shoulders, and most of all, I have seen primer pockets that are so enlarged the primers don’t stay in. I have yet to see a case fail because of F/L sizing overwork.

    Case head separation is caused by someone not knowing how to set their sizing die and it can be discovered by using the technique described in the other thread. But if you set your sizing die properly, it will never happen and I don’t even bother checking that.

    Split necks are caused by the use of standard sizing dies (N/S or F/L) where the mouth of the case is closed more than it should be and then expanded again by the expander ball. This occurs more often from rifles with a generous leade where the case mouth expands more than usual. When you work that case mouth with a standard die over and over again, it will split. You can alleviate that with annealing but even more specifically by eschewing the use of standard dies and using a bushing die with the proper size bushing and placing the expander ball in low Earth orbit where it belongs.

    Failing shoulders is very rare and I have seen that with certain specific ancient calibers and with people using body dies. (Hold that thought, we’ll come back to it.) When you resize the case or more commonly when you use the body die, the shoulders do not go back properly and they crumple. This is very rare, but I have seen it.

    The most common cause of death for a rifle case is the loose primer pocket. This will occur when you foolishly insist on using very stout loads in your rifle. That’s what kills my brass, because I do use very stout loads. I believe I retard the primer pocket expansion by using a small base F/L die from the first sizing as it pushes the case head back together some after each firing. I get 8 loadings with my brass from virgin and then I retire it. By that time the primer is VERY easy to insert.

    Overworking my brass due to sizing? I don’t even know what that would look like. Do you?

    Now that we have shot that first canard down, let’s go after the second one; brace yourself, it’s going to be rough.

    When you neck size, the only thing you are doing is pushing back the neck to a smaller dimension, the body and shoulder of the case are untouched.

    Now, when you fire a cartridge for the first time in your action, the principle of operation is for the case to expand until it is stopped by the chamber and it can’t expand any further. The mouth of the case expands also to obturate the bore and prevent the hot gases from going back into the chamber and your face. Everything goes out the barrel. When the pressure drops, the case shrinks back, a little, and comes off the wall. The bolt rotates the case to break any remaining stickiness and then pulls the fired case out of the chamber.

    Brass has some elasticity inherent to it. This is why the case does shrink back a bit so you can pull it out. However that elasticity can be overcome with too much pressure. This is what happens when a bolt is hard to open. The brass was overworked due to too high a pressure and will not shrink back. When you try to rotate the bolt, the case is stuck to the wall of the chamber and it will not let go easily.

    With me so far?

    Ok. Now when you neck size, you do not bring back the case to a starting volume. The case now has the volume of a fired case that has shrunk back a bit. The next time you fire it the case expands again and shrinks back, but less than the prior time. Your twice-fired case now has an internal volume that is even greater than after the first firing. At some point, the N/S case becomes too difficult to rotate and extract. Neck sizers pull out something called a body die (told you we would come back to it) or may even decide to F/L size the many-times fired case to bring it back to “normal.” That doesn’t really work, the body die will bring it back some, but the brass will also spring back larger because that’s what brass does. So, even after using a body die, you have no clue about the internal volume. If you have to use a body die or if you have to F/L size the case at intervals, you do not have a consistent internal volume, especially between the load prior to the use of the body die and the load right after the use of the body die. You have no consistency from load to load.

    Another reason you use the body die is to set the shoulder back some. This means that in the interval between the first firing and the time you use the body die, the shoulder has expanded, firing after firing. Another area of inconsistency, but it gets worse. This is actually how you damage your rifle.

    Where going to stay with the bolt action here because I think everyone can agree that you really don’t want to neck size for semi-autos, levers and pumps. Why is that? Well, the common answer is these other action types do not have the camming action to chamber a neck sized cartridge. Imagine that.

    Your bolt action should not be used to crush fit a fat cartridge with a too long neck either. If you do that consistently you are damaging your action; the lugs, the handle, etc. They are designed to hold the cartridge in place during ignition, to obturate the bore, not to coax bad cartridges into the chamber.

    But it gets worse. If you have ANY resistance when you open the bolt and pull out the fired cartridge, you’ve got an overpressure situation. That can be caused by a bad load or by an ill-fitting cartridge, either way you are doing damage to your action. I know that a lot of neck sizers decide it’s time to use the body die when the bolt gets really hard to close or open; they are causing damage to their rifles, on top of getting inconsistencies from load to load.

    A properly adjusted F/L resizing die for a single rifle should put the shoulder back about .001 to .002 from fired, squeeze the body and shrink the neck and mouth. When you load a handloaded cartridge, the bolt should close smoothly without any resistance whatsoever. When the shot is taken, you should be able to open the bolt without a hint of resistance then either. If there is any resistance anywhere, you have a problem, if it persists, you are damaging your rifle. If you open your bolt and hear a click at the top of the stroke, you’re really damaging your rifle.

    Yes, I am an F-class shooter; yes, my action alone if $1,400, just the action. My barrels are chambered exactly to my specs using a dummy cartridge with the bullet seated exactly how I want it and just at the lands when the barrel is unfired. The chamber is tight, very tight.

    Because of the tightness of my chamber, I could probably get away with neck sizing the case since it does not have much room for the brass to grow unlike factory rifles with their obese chambers. I F/L size my fired cartridges after every firing because I insist on the highest consistency between loadings and I absolutely must have the smoothest possible action travel. When I am in the middle of a competition, the very last thing I want is to be fighting with the action at every shot. I place the cartridge in the action and I close the bolt just before I fire. It’s ALWAYS as smooth as butter; no resistance. I then pull my 1.5 ounce trigger with the same finger that closed the bolt. When the round is fired and I finish my followthrough, I can open the bolt with the back of my thumb and pull the bolt back and fish out the fired case from the action. Imagine if I had to fight with the bolt at every shot.
    OK, yeah you have enough room in your chamber that when your NS cartridge is fired, it doesn't come back to the same size as the last firing. But, it comes back a lot closer than if you size your brass all the way back to the rim which FL sizing does. If you are setting your sizing die where there is less room for expansion then you are doing something akin to neck sizing. If you size the case all the way back to its factory like most people do when they fl size then you work your brass more than neck sizing. I would argue anytime you use your fl sizing die you work the brass more than neck sizing.

    But, I do agree with you about primer pockets. If you shoot your cases until the primer pockets are expanding excessively you are over using them. Ten loadings is pushing it. And if you anneal the case, you're fixing part of it only. You can't fix the primer pocket by annealing the neck. I think you can extend the life by using a small base fl die like every 8 reloadings. That will work the brass, but only once. Once you fire it the size goes back. But maybe the primer pocket stays small for a few more firings, but I don't think this would get you more than three more loadings before primer pockets are loose again.
    Last edited by snake284; 10-12-2017 at 09:27 PM.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

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