Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 90 of 90

Thread: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

  1. #61
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    You got lots of stuff in there, so I will go piece by piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    OK, yeah you have enough room in your chamber that when your NS cartridge is fired, it doesn't come back to the same size as the last firing.
    Ok. agreed.

    But, it comes back a lot closer than if you size your brass all the way back to the rim which FL sizing does.
    I don't understand that part. Are you saying that an N/S brass will naturally contract back, even further than if you F/L size the case? That doesn't make any sense. Please help me understand your point.


    If you are setting your sizing die where there is less room for expansion then you are doing something akin to neck sizing.
    I don't agree. What I am controlling by adjusting the die as I described, is the headspace, the distance from the base to the datum point on the case. F/L sizing also shrinks the body of the case back to unfired dimension. These are two things that a neck sizing die does not do. I do this for the brass that will be used exclusively in that rifle, essentially keeping its fire-formed headspace, but just shrinking it a bit to assure easy chambering and extraction. It's also know as bumping the shoulder back.


    If you size the case all the way back to its factory like most people do when they fl size then you work your brass more than neck sizing. I would argue anytime you use your fl sizing die you work the brass more than neck sizing.
    Ok, so what do you mean by working the brass more? What effect does that have on brass life? That's what I was asking you in the other thread. What does that mean? How do you recognize it? What deleterious effect does it have on the brass? Just saying "it works the brass more" is totally meaningless.

    But, I do agree with you about primer pockets. If you shoot your cases until the primer pockets are expanding excessively you are over using them.
    The primer pockets will expand, especially with stout loads. In a rifle, it's inevitable but it can be retarded somewhat, especially by reducing the load. I consider my brass a consumable, some people consider their brass to be priceless.

    Ten loadings is pushing it. And if you anneal the case, you're fixing part of it only.
    Depends on the caliber, the load and so on. I know competitors who so overload their .308 cases that the primer pocket is gone after one shot. They only use the case once. I know of shooters who have 20, and 30 loads or more on their rifle brass but eventually the primer pocket goes. The ONLY reason I anneal my cases after every firing is to assure consistency of the neck tension and release. I never thought that annealing cases would extend their life beyond what I see with primer pockets loosening.

    You can't fix the primer pocket by annealing the neck.
    Agreed.

    I think you can extend the life by using a small base fl die like every 8 reloadings. That will work the brass, but only once. Once you fire it the size goes back. But maybe the primer pocket stays small for a few more firings, but I don't think this would get you more than three more loadings before primer pockets are loose again
    I disagree. As I explained earlier, using an S/B die after several loadings will accomplish very little and it will be an exercise in pushing a handle down. You CANNOT push the primer pocket back using a die and a reloading press. Once the primer pocket goes, there is nothing that can be done for it. I knew a guy who invented a device that would surround the base of the case and then using a hammer, you could pound the base back a bit. That was so much work, and the consistency could not be controlled. Brass is a consumable, why bother with that? I have also heard of people using Krazy glue to hold the primer in place but the primer cup would have to expand perfectly to prevent the gases from etching the boltface. Not a good thing.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-12-2017 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #62
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    I think you and Sush are taping the same barrel
    I seriously doubt he has a source for watermelon flavored moonshine.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  3. #63
    Moderator Linefinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    3,457

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    An aside......regarding lube or not...

    In 2007 I elk hunted near Scooters place. I knew it was going to be cold, so I removed all the lube from my bolt and the chamber. I figured it was dry as a bone.

    Opening morning was -26F. Yep..negative 26 F.

    My "completely dry" bolt had frozen completely shut when I tried to unload upon leaving the field. I didn't beat my bolt with a hammer. I just fired a shot into the dirt, and that took care of the problem.

    The next day was a couple degrees warmer.

    Mike
    Last edited by Linefinder; 10-13-2017 at 12:26 AM.
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter

  4. #64
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    That frozen bolt syndrome happens more than you'd think in the duck and goose blinds when the temperature hovers around 0°F. Your shotgun goes from a nice warm house to a gun case in the back seat of the truck. Then you take it out of that warm gun case and it hits that frigid humid air, usually in fog, and you go to your blind and wait for daylight about an hour away. By the time the sun is up that gun is outside temperature cold, and all that moisture that condensed inside and outside has frozen into a nice thin crust of ice. And the oil is set up like epoxy cement. The pump shotguns can be broken free, most of the time. The semiautos are magazine fed single shots, provided the firing pin isn't frozen solid in place.

    I started using the atomized graphite, either the grease or the alcohol solution, back in the early 80s. Found out by accident how slick it made steel parts slide, and that the grease didn't gum up like regular geases and oils in cold weather. Made miserable cold duck and goose hunting a lot less aggravating.

    And that is why I take those single use disposable hand warmers with me when I'm going to hunt in cold and humid areas, too. Before that I carried a Zippo fueled hand warmer to keep the gun, and my hands warm. Makes life, and hunting a lot easier to deal with if you know your gun will fire when needed.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  5. #65
    Senior Member early's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Thornton CO
    Posts
    4,316

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Never had a bolt freeze shut, but I had a trigger freeze up.

    I got some graphite spray. Maybe I'll give them lugs a shot at the back edges. Stuff werks good on the 22 kit on my 1911. Messy though.

    I read once that lighter fluid was the trick for triggers back in the day
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  6. #66
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    Never had a bolt freeze shut, but I had a trigger freeze up.

    I got some graphite spray. Maybe I'll give them lugs a shot at the back edges. Stuff werks good on the 22 kit on my 1911. Messy though.

    I read once that lighter fluid was the trick for triggers back in the day
    If you want to remove oil or grease, then lighter fluid will do the trick, and it evaporates quickly. And if you wipe it down with a rag to remove the oil and grease with a lighter fluid soaked rag you'll have a very dry trigger, sear, and everything else.

    I have a bottle of this stuff and it works pretty good so far. It goes on wet and leaves a dry film when the carrier evaporates. It's a moly lube and is slick like graphite. I haven't used it long enough to have an opinion on it, except that is slick as snail snot when dry, and you DO NOT want to get it on your skin; it's really hard to get off.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/46...nt-2-oz-bottle
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    539

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    re post 58, bolt break in.

    Tennmike, I thought I knew a small thing or two but by crikey, I never knew that.
    Neglecting the obvious will be the reason I missed those two shots some years apart. They still bother me.
    It will be to late for the ones I own now but be assured I'll follow the procedure to the verse from now on.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  8. #68
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    Never had a bolt freeze shut, but I had a trigger freeze up.

    I got some graphite spray. Maybe I'll give them lugs a shot at the back edges. Stuff werks good on the 22 kit on my 1911. Messy though.

    I read once that lighter fluid was the trick for triggers back in the day
    Wait a minute, I might have misunderstood your post when I replied. If you are talking about unfreezing a bolt, then yes, lighter fluid will free up the bits and evaporates fairly quick even in cold weather.

    So will alcohol, and it evaporates quickly. But I'm not wasting my untaxed stuff on that. It's for internal use in me only! A small bottle of rubbing alcohol in a tightly capped squirt bottle would be a good thing to have in your kit, and is multipurpose. First aid, fire starter, and bolt/action/slide unfreezer!
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  9. #69
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by ojr View Post
    re post 58, bolt break in.

    Tennmike, I thought I knew a small thing or two but by crikey, I never knew that.
    Neglecting the obvious will be the reason I missed those two shots some years apart. They still bother me.
    It will be to late for the ones I own now but be assured I'll follow the procedure to the verse from now on.
    Bolt break in following those instructions is a LOT easier than the barrel break in procedure. Juggling chipmunks isn't my forte, at all.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  10. #70
    Senior Member early's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Thornton CO
    Posts
    4,316

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    Wait a minute, I might have misunderstood your post when I replied. If you are talking about unfreezing a bolt, then yes, lighter fluid will free up the bits and evaporates fairly quick even in cold weather.

    So will alcohol, and it evaporates quickly. But I'm not wasting my untaxed stuff on that. It's for internal use in me only! A small bottle of rubbing alcohol in a tightly capped squirt bottle would be a good thing to have in your kit, and is multipurpose. First aid, fire starter, and bolt/action/slide unfreezer!
    No, if I used lighter fluid it would be to clean the trigger.

    A shot a that graphite should mabe prevent a bolt freeze. I recently read a gun scribe was using that moly to lube his rifle. Something to consider.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  11. #71
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by early View Post
    No, if I used lighter fluid it would be to clean the trigger.

    A shot a that graphite should mabe prevent a bolt freeze. I recently read a gun scribe was using that moly to lube his rifle. Something to consider.
    I use graphite and moly lube interchangeably. They're both super slick. There's also some PTFE type lube on the market, too. The stuff of nonstick pans. There are also silicone based lubricants. WARNING: DO NOT GOOGLE SILICON LUBRICANTS OR SILICON GUN LUBES! That will get you some 'kinky' results.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  12. #72
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    OK, I finally watched the Erik vid. I tell you what I've said before. He is not Full Length sizing. He's partially sizing which is sort of like neck sizing. To me, if you push the shoulder all the way back to factory spec, then you've full length sized. If you push it back just to make it fit the chamber you're partially sizing the case. Doing this you no doubt reap some of the benefits of neck sizing (you're not working the brass as much) but you don't let the case grow until it is a tight fit in the chamber. Now I see what you mean by this being more consistent. I like this and will try it. You're getting the best of both worlds of full length sizing and neck sizing. Now I can deal with that. You don't work the brass as much as true full length sizing does and you don't let the brass grow too long where it's tight in the chamber. But I reiterate that you are not doing true full length sizing.
    Last edited by snake284; 10-14-2017 at 12:32 AM.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  13. #73
    Senior Member early's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Thornton CO
    Posts
    4,316

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    OK, I finally watched the Erik vid. I tell you what I've said before. He is not Full Length sizing. He's partially sizing which is sort of like neck sizing. To me, if you push the shoulder all the way back to factory spec, then you've full length sized. If you push it back just to make it fit the chamber you're partially sizing the case. Doing this you no doubt reap some of the benefits of neck sizing (you're not working the brass as much) but you don't let the case grow until it is a tight fit in the chamber. Now I see what you mean by this being more consistent. I like this and will try it. You're getting the best of both worlds of full length sizing and neck sizing. Now I can deal with that. You don't work the brass as much as true full length sizing does and you don't let the brass grow too long where it's tight in the chamber. But I reiterate that you are not doing true full length sizing.
    That's the same die adjustment procedure I use that I got from Dan Johnson way back when. Seems like it'd be especially good for belted magnums and 303 SMLE rifles.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Six-Gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Eastern Nebraska
    Posts
    6,484

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    That frozen bolt syndrome happens more than you'd think in the duck and goose blinds when the temperature hovers around 0°F. Your shotgun goes from a nice warm house to a gun case in the back seat of the truck. Then you take it out of that warm gun case and it hits that frigid humid air, usually in fog, and you go to your blind and wait for daylight about an hour away. By the time the sun is up that gun is outside temperature cold, and all that moisture that condensed inside and outside has frozen into a nice thin crust of ice. And the oil is set up like epoxy cement. The pump shotguns can be broken free, most of the time. The semiautos are magazine fed single shots, provided the firing pin isn't frozen solid in place.

    I started using the atomized graphite, either the grease or the alcohol solution, back in the early 80s. Found out by accident how slick it made steel parts slide, and that the grease didn't gum up like regular geases and oils in cold weather. Made miserable cold duck and goose hunting a lot less aggravating.

    And that is why I take those single use disposable hand warmers with me when I'm going to hunt in cold and humid areas, too. Before that I carried a Zippo fueled hand warmer to keep the gun, and my hands warm. Makes life, and hunting a lot easier to deal with if you know your gun will fire when needed.
    ^^Truth.

    I found out the hard way in the old, relatively humid Nebraska winters that oil goes from being the friend to being the sworn enemy when the outside temps get near or below 20 degrees F. I have watch my sluggish bolt slide home and fail to adequately chamber the following round in my semi-auto more than once, only to realize I would've been better off with *no* oil at all.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.

  15. #75
    Senior Member early's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Thornton CO
    Posts
    4,316

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I actually read somewhere that the old timers used graphite with muzzle loaders, maybe on the locks, I can't remember for sure Could have bee in the bores too.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    OK, I finally watched the Erik vid. I tell you what I've said before. He is not Full Length sizing. He's partially sizing which is sort of like neck sizing. To me, if you push the shoulder all the way back to factory spec, then you've full length sized. If you push it back just to make it fit the chamber you're partially sizing the case. Doing this you no doubt reap some of the benefits of neck sizing (you're not working the brass as much) but you don't let the case grow until it is a tight fit in the chamber. Now I see what you mean by this being more consistent. I like this and will try it. You're getting the best of both worlds of full length sizing and neck sizing. Now I can deal with that. You don't work the brass as much as true full length sizing does and you don't let the brass grow too long where it's tight in the chamber. But I reiterate that you are not doing true full length sizing.
    Ok Snake, we're going around in circles here and you keep saying the same things and refuse to answer my questions. So, I'm trying one last time.

    My questions are: "what does working the brass mean?" "how do you recognize the problem engendered by working the brass?" "what deleterious effect does working the brass have on case functionaly, consistency or life?" Or all three? "How do you recognize that?"

    If you cannot answer these simple questions, I won't bother you with this again but I will note that you could not answer and ascribe my own reasons for that non-response.

    Now, the full length sizing that I do IS full length sizing. I even use a small base die to do some extra squeezing at the base of the cartridge. The whole body of the case is squeezed back to nominal. That is NOT done by neck sizing dies.

    I see you failed to notice that in an earlier post I explained that I push back the shoulders of my case to virgin brass dimensions because that is what .002 under fired length is in my chamber. I speced it that way. This way, even virgin brass is consistent with my resized brass. The only difference between virgin brass and my resized brass is neck tension.

    Finally, as I explained earlier, several times now, the headspace of a fired case in a SAAMI chamber will not be far from the virgin brass size so bumping the shoulder back .002 from firing will bring it close to virgin brass. Let me also add, that virgin brass will have different measurement from base to datum line, especially from brand to brand. This is why I explained that you want to measure a sample of your virgin brass to have a baseline. I know what my baseline is when I get a new lot of Lapua brass and I work from there.

    So, one last time. Neck sizing dies DO NOT TOUCH the body of the case, they leave it expanded from firing. Full length sizing dies squeeze the body back. Small base F/L dies squeeze an extra .001 to .003 in the OD of the base of the die. Please stop equating neck sizing to F/L sizing even if you leave the shoulder a couple thous longer than virgin; the F/L die is still squeezing the BODY of the case back down.

  17. #77
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    [QUOTE=Pegasus;691563]Ok Snake, we're going around in circles here and you keep saying the same things and refuse to answer my questions. So, I'm trying one last time.

    My questions are: "what does working the brass mean?" "how do you recognize the problem engendered by working the brass?" "what deleterious effect does working the brass have on case functionaly, consistency or life?" Or all three? "How do you recognize that?"

    If you cannot answer these simple questions, I won't bother you with this again but I will note that you could not answer and ascribe my own reasons for that non-response.

    OK I'm sorry I didn't get to your questions but I had a student here I'm teaching and also I went to a meeting.

    But I will answer you one question at a time.

    The first one. What does it mean to work the brass? If you resize a piece of brass it work hardens it. How do I recognize this? I have only seen this a couple of times. I had brass so old, well 10 loadings or so, that had a shiny ring about 1/4" to 3/8" up from the cartridge base. After reading about work hardened brass I realized that was what it was so I discarded the brass. That was before I was told by some so called bench rest gurus in my club about Neck Sizing.

    Also, I had some 6mm Remington brass I had loaded several times that cracked and separated a little over half way up. I threw that brass away also. I don't think it was dangerous because they were all cracking far enough up where there was enough brass to seal the chamber off and prevent blow by. But both these examples were with brass that had been full length sized many times, like probably 10-12 times.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  18. #78
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    Ok Snake, we're going around in circles here and you keep saying the same things and refuse to answer my questions. So, I'm trying one last time.

    My questions are: "what does working the brass mean?" "how do you recognize the problem engendered by working the brass?" "what deleterious effect does working the brass have on case functionaly, consistency or life?" Or all three? "How do you recognize that?"

    If you cannot answer these simple questions, I won't bother you with this again but I will note that you could not answer and ascribe my own reasons for that non-response.

    Now, the full length sizing that I do IS full length sizing. I even use a small base die to do some extra squeezing at the base of the cartridge. The whole body of the case is squeezed back to nominal. That is NOT done by neck sizing dies.

    I see you failed to notice that in an earlier post I explained that I push back the shoulders of my case to virgin brass dimensions because that is what .002 under fired length is in my chamber. I speced it that way. This way, even virgin brass is consistent with my resized brass. The only difference between virgin brass and my resized brass is neck tension.

    Finally, as I explained earlier, several times now, the headspace of a fired case in a SAAMI chamber will not be far from the virgin brass size so bumping the shoulder back .002 from firing will bring it close to virgin brass. Let me also add, that virgin brass will have different measurement from base to datum line, especially from brand to brand. This is why I explained that you want to measure a sample of your virgin brass to have a baseline. I know what my baseline is when I get a new lot of Lapua brass and I work from there.

    So, one last time. Neck sizing dies DO NOT TOUCH the body of the case, they leave it expanded from firing. Full length sizing dies squeeze the body back. Small base F/L dies squeeze an extra .001 to .003 in the OD of the base of the die. Please stop equating neck sizing to F/L sizing even if you leave the shoulder a couple thous longer than virgin; the F/L die is still squeezing the BODY of the case back down.
    Peg, I am not an engineer, but I'm enough of a Mechanic to realize the difference in neck sizing and full length resizing. In your match rifle your chamber is tighter than probably any rifle I own, so when you bump your shoulder back a couple thousandths your case is probably very close to factory length. However, in my hunting rifles I've probably got another .002 of an inch I can bump back the shoulder. However, if I just bump the shoulder back away from the datum line without full length resize. That means the shoulder has room for expansion but you can control the length because you are moving the shoulder back to the same predetermined length each time and without making for a super tight fit that can damage lugs and bolts. This is why I want to try this instead of having to push the shoulder back every 5-6 shots when it gets tight in the chamber.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  19. #79
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Snake, thanks for taking the time to answer. I will respond to your comments in-line:

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    (snip)
    The first one. What does it mean to work the brass? If you resize a piece of brass it work hardens it. How do I recognize this? I have only seen this a couple of times. I had brass so old, well 10 loadings or so, that had a shiny ring about 1/4" to 3/8" up from the cartridge base. After reading about work hardened brass I realized that was what it was so I discarded the brass. That was before I was told by some so called bench rest gurus in my club about Neck Sizing.
    I totally understand what you are describing. In actuality, it's not work hardening, these are the classic symptoms of an incipient case separation due to a badly adjusted sizing die. We have come full circle from the beginnings of the other thread describing a pick to check for that. This is where I barged into that thread and stated that I never had that issue because I knew how to adjust my sizing die. Then I started this thread.

    If you look at a cross-section of a rifle cartridge, you would see that the base of the case is very thick at the bottom and in the body, starting from the bottom. At some point up from the base, the brass gets markedly thinner and then it slowly gets thinner still as you get to the case mouth. That point where the brass wall gets markedly thinner is the exact spot you described as having that shiny ring, 1/4" to 3/8" up from the cartridge base. That's where the case head separation occurs, when it happens.

    When you fire a cartridge, the brass case expands in all directions to the chamber wall, and the case mouth expands to the leade and releases the bullet. One of the dimensions is the distance from the base of the case to the datum line midway up the shoulder. If your rifle has a generous headspace, when you fire the cartridge the shoulders of the case will have further to expand. This shoulder growth is what thins out that area where the case wall thickness decreases rapidly. When you F/L resize the case and you push back the shoulders more than you need to, at the next firing, that area will thin out a little more. It will do this at every cycle until it lets got and you have a case head separation. This can also happen if your F/L sizing die is set up to push the shoulder back too aggressively.

    I see that you did not explain how you set up your sizing die in the first place. Do you have any idea of your rifle's headspace? Have you measured it? Do you have a cartridge guage to measure your handloaded rounds? This is what I explain in this tread. It's all about measure, measure, measure. Far too many people haven't the slightest clue about their rifle's headspace and how to set up an F/L die. They don't even own the simple cheap tools needed to do this.

    Your benchrester guru has a very different setup than yours. I know that a lot of people take what the bench rest guys say as gospel, but some of it doesn't apply to the vast majority of shooters. We have people here pissing and moaning at me that I have a special rifle that mere mortals do not have so how I load my ammo doesn't apply to regular people. Yet, you take directions from a bench rest guy who, if he is indeed a guru, use a rifle with a chamber so tight it will not accept virgin brass until it has been processed extensively, after strict culling. These guys baby their brass, take it out shopping and to dinner and a movie, and even sleep with it on satin sheets. They have about 10-12 pieces of brass, each case has a pet name and its own bathroom. He talks to each piece as he gently resizes the mouth to reduce it from fired by about .0005 using a unicorn fart-powered hydraulic press. He weight sorts his primers and discard any that deviate from the norm by .01 grain. He apologizes to the case when he gently inserts the bullet, that he spent hours polishing, weight sorting, measuring and balancing.

    These guys make my intricate loading regimen look like uncontrolled chaos and mayhem.

    Benchresters can get away with neck sizing specifically because their chambers are so tight. The tight chamber in my match barrels are train tunnels compared to those benchrest chambers.

    I yet, I hear some are now using F/L sizing, go figure.


    Also, I had some 6mm Remington brass I had loaded several times that cracked and separated a little over half way up. I threw that brass away also. I don't think it was dangerous because they were all cracking far enough up where there was enough brass to seal the chamber off and prevent blow by. But both these examples were with brass that had been full length sized many times, like probably 10-12 times.
    Diagnosing anything to do with handloading on a forum is an exercise in frustration, especially, when it's "this occurred some time back and I don't have anything left of it."

    So, I'll pass.

  20. #80
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    Peg, I am not an engineer, but I'm enough of a Mechanic to realize the difference in neck sizing and full length resizing. In your match rifle your chamber is tighter than probably any rifle I own, so when you bump your shoulder back a couple thousandths your case is probably very close to factory length. However, in my hunting rifles I've probably got another .002 of an inch I can bump back the shoulder. However, if I just bump the shoulder back away from the datum line without full length resize. That means the shoulder has room for expansion but you can control the length because you are moving the shoulder back to the same predetermined length each time and without making for a super tight fit that can damage lugs and bolts. This is why I want to try this instead of having to push the shoulder back every 5-6 shots when it gets tight in the chamber.
    Here we go again. It's ok to take directions from a benchrester but gosh darn it all, a F-class guy shooting an F-TR rifle in .308 is way too exotic for my tastes.

    There are dies that will neck size only and do a shoulder bump. They will not resize the body, just like you insist you don't want done. At some point you will need to use either an F/L die or a body die, and thus lose consistency, but that's probably not something that greatly concerns you. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm saying whatever consistency you lose is just not something that would have much if any influence on the bullet in hunting, target shooting and plinking situations.

    Before you change anything in your loading regimen, measure, measure, measure. Get the cheap inserts from Hornady, slap them on your caliper and measure fired cases, loaded cartridges, virgin brass and even factory ammo. Find out what you have before you start doing anything.

    This is the gadget you want, if you don't already have it:
    https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod35168.aspx

    Get the set with the bushing if you have nothing: 749-005-148WS


    Oh, and by the way; you did a great job explaining your situation. Well done. Now go carpe that diem.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-14-2017 at 03:14 PM.

  21. #81
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    Here we go again. It's ok to take directions from a benchrester but gosh darn it all, a F-class guy shooting an F-TR rifle in .308 is way too exotic for my tastes.

    There are dies that will neck size only and do a shoulder bump. They will not resize the body, just like you insist you don't want done. At some point you will need to use either an F/L die or a body die, and thus lose consistency, but that's probably not something that greatly concerns you. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm saying whatever consistency you lose is just not something that would have much if any influence on the bullet in hunting, target shooting and plinking situations.

    Before you change anything in your loading regimen, measure, measure, measure. Get the cheap inserts from Hornady, slap them on your caliper and measure fired cases, loaded cartridges, virgin brass and even factory ammo. Find out what you have before you start doing anything.

    This is the gadget you want, if you don't already have it:
    https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod35168.aspx

    Get the set with the bushing if you have nothing: 749-005-148WS


    Oh, and by the way; you did a great job explaining your situation. Well done. Now go carpe that diem.
    Ah now we're on the same page! Finally! And I will concede you taught me something. Well you and Cortina, whatever his name is. After listening to you both I realized why you need to bump back some to be consistent. Because you have a starting point other than the size of the chamber. I disagree that it will be much different to bump the shoulder back or full length size. When you hit the switch (Pull the Trigger) the case is going to grow to the chamber and as it cools or after the initial pressure surge, it will retract a bit. I now believe that if you neck size only, repeated firings will cause the case not to retract as much. But if you bump the shoulder back it gives it room to expand every round. That's where I see consistency. If you bump the shoulder back you start at the same place every time, even though you didn't full length size it. When neck sizing only you start out a little different each time and finally at some point, maybe 2-3 rounds fired, end up with NO GROW room. That's going to affect accuracy and cause wear on your bolt lugs AND probably over time increase your head space. And even a little increase in head space will affect accuracy negatively. Anyway, that's the way I see it up til now.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  22. #82
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by snake284 View Post
    Ah now we're on the same page! Finally! And I will concede you taught me something. Well you and Cortina, whatever his name is. After listening to you both I realized why you need to bump back some to be consistent. Because you have a starting point other than the size of the chamber. I disagree that it will be much different to bump the shoulder back or full length size. When you hit the switch (Pull the Trigger) the case is going to grow to the chamber and as it cools or after the initial pressure surge, it will retract a bit. I now believe that if you neck size only, repeated firings will cause the case not to retract as much. But if you bump the shoulder back it gives it room to expand every round. That's where I see consistency. If you bump the shoulder back you start at the same place every time, even though you didn't full length size it. When neck sizing only you start out a little different each time and finally at some point, maybe 2-3 rounds fired, end up with NO GROW room. That's going to affect accuracy and cause wear on your bolt lugs AND probably over time increase your head space. And even a little increase in head space will affect accuracy negatively. Anyway, that's the way I see it up til now.
    Close enough, I'll take it.

    His name is Erik. I won't see him at the match next week, but I probably will see him next month and pass on the good news.

  23. #83
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus View Post
    Close enough, I'll take it.

    His name is Erik. I won't see him at the match next week, but I probably will see him next month and pass on the good news.
    Great! I suspect the truth s somewhere between us out there in cyber space...
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  24. #84
    Senior Member JasonMPD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,964
    So... what dies do you recommend?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers

  25. #85
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19,426

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonMPD View Post
    So... what dies do you recommend?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I recommend .270 dies because I like .270s. OK I'll just go to my room now.....
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  26. #86
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonMPD View Post
    So... what dies do you recommend?
    It depends. (Great, what a way to start an answer.)

    I have been using Redding S type bushing dies for over 10 years now, first in .223 and then .308. I actually have been using RCBS for 30+ years in these and other calibers, as well as Hornady and Pacific. When I started F-class in 2006, I son discovered that my handloading was not producing the quality of ammo that I would need. I read a lot of books on competition shooting and competition handloading. Actually that's a lie. There were very few books on competition shooting and only one book about competition handloading. My ammo was ok for Service Rifle competitions, but when it came to F-class, it was subpar. When the NRA sanctioned the F-Class division in '07, they issued the tiny targets and I knew then that I would have to step up my handloading and marksmanship, or take up golf.

    So, first change was the sizing die. I went with a bushing die for several reasons: it minimizes the work on the case neck and mouth and it provides for more consistent and controlled neck tension. It also reduces or virtually eliminates case growth because you don't drag out an expander.

    In a regular (non-bushing) sizing die, the top of the die will squeeze the case mouth down more than needed because it has to ensure it provide the proper OD for any brand of brass. When you pull the case out of the die, the stem of the die holds an expander ball that will pop out the ID of the case mouth so you can actually seat a bullet.

    In a bushing die, you select the exact bushing your brass requires so that when you push a case in the die and the bushing, the latter will bring the OD of the case down to where I want it and no more.

    You measure a cartridge for the brass you use loaded with a bullet and you subtract the amount of neck tension you want. I my case, for Lapua brass I use a .335 bushing.

    Redding has great dies, Forster also has a strong following with their bushing dies.

  27. #87
    Moderator Linefinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    3,457

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    Redding S bushing dies are all I use on my pdog and BR rigs. I do use a plain Jane rcbs fl die for the big game rigs.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter

  28. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,179

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    What you are doing is how I was shown when I first started. I go about .003 but I load for hunting rifles not a f class and I use a ball.

  29. #89
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    19,648

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    If you want to know how much your FL dies work harden your brass, then there are Brinell hardness testers in the range of <$250 dollars that will do that accurately. Brass does work harden with repeated trips through the FL die, and necks the most. Whether it's a ball, elliptical, or collet neck sizer the brass will be hardened.

    In a former life I did materials testing, and that was an eyeopener for sure. Even dead soft copper tubing would work harden and become brittle. Heat from flame from powder + expansion, then cold compression in the die, and re-expansion of the neck by the expander, if used instead of a collet, works the brass and hardens it.

    All this argument over FL vs. Neck sizing misses one point. IF the FL or neck sized case slides into the case gauge without any pressure, and drops out, and is not too deep or sticking out above the gauge then it will fit ANY SAAMI spec. chamber.

    F Class is a whole different ball of wax, and everybody in that sport seems to have their own 'voodoo' on ammunition loading. No different from the benchrest shooters. I know a few that have loads for the expected temperature that day and it might even include even changing powders. Guy I know in Oak Ridge showed me his load book and he had three pages worth worked up for different temperatures. I don't know if that was necessary, but he believed it, used it, and had high scores to prove it. Whatever works.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

  30. #90
    Senior Member Pegasus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Spring, Texas
    Posts
    2,369

    Re: Neck sizing is bad. (Easy to find thread)

    I know some of the guys from Oak Ridge. Good people. One of them recently moved to New England and he's an awesome shooter.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •