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Thread: Let's talk about dreamers

  1. #61
    Senior Member JerryBobCo's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Well there is at least more than enough votes to get it passed. Problem is there probably isn't a majority of Republicans in the house because too many of them gain too much politically by bashing immigrants and blaming them for all the problems in this country. That and Ryan won't hold a vote on anything that can't pass almost entirely with Republican votes.
    And too many dems gain politically by defending DACA, regardless of how they really feel about it. To boil it down, it's really nothing more than a political football for elected officials.
    Jerry

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  2. #62
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    In the eyes of many unfortunately yes. In their eyes the only way to truly and patriotically serve your country is to carry a rifle.

    Way off topic, but what I feel like we desperately need is some form of voluntary civil service program that provides many of the same benefits (although not all) to young Americans who want to contribute to this great nation while helping to train and prepare them for a career. Provide room and board and a minimal stipend with some educational benefits at the end of 2 years and have them help in national parks, support the border patrol, etc. etc. lots of useful things we could have them do.
    Not really off topic. I was kind of thinking that it would be nice if some of these people had other ways to contribute and prove their worth to our country. Unfortunately, not everyone is military material.

  3. #63
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    I suggest that if the border is being controlled, and illegals are being deported, it won't be long before the government makes it easier for non-criminals to re-enter on work permits or visas, and that those who were deported have a leg up towards proving the good citizenship tendencies that would streamline their return. Sure, it's a pain in the ass for them, but not an unreasonable one for someone who has broken immigration laws. In fact, I think that Trump and most Republicans would support it, as soon as there is solid law in place and the border control has proven out.
    Maybe although I think you underestimate the amount of true deep seeded racism in this country. Yes the debate is always focused on illegal immigrants which gives it a facade of being all about upholding the law and brings along a lot of people who don't have racist motives. The truth is there are a lot of people in this country who are not ok with the growing population of brown people who also speak Spanish in this country. I grew up in a rural town in Ohio that got an influx of legal migrant workers every year. I witnessed all sorts of over racism towards them. I hear it and see it all the time, especially when I lived in AZ. There are way more people that you're probably willing to admit who just plain don't want them here.

    Republicans have capitalized on this and both overly and covertly pander to these people. On the other side Democrats see an opportunity to caputure a growing demographic so pander to the Latino vote as well. Because this issue is so important to significant parts of both parties base it makes it really hard to compromise on even though the vast majority of us in the middle can easily come up with a reasonable compromise that makes a lot of sense.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Border security is where it has to start, IMO. And not a ridiculous wall. Simply putting the proper resources where they need to be and getting rid of the 'sanctuary city' crap would be a good start. Unless we really tighten down hard on the flow of illegals coming in, we'll never be able to deal with the problem regarding the ones already here. And this is where the breakdown happens. One side wants to talk about amnesty for those already here, but use border security as political ammo against their opponents. And the other side wants to build a wall, giving easy ammo for them to use....

    Know what happened under Obama when amnesty, DACA and the orders to federal agencies to enforce the law selectively? The border was flooded with illegals. Word travels quick. The administration tied the enforcement agencies hands behind their backs, then let it be loud and clear that "dreamers" would be allowed to stay, families wouldn't be broken up, amnesty was on the way. So, there was a rush of illegals trying to get over here. Literally by the thousands. Detention facilities filled up. Then there was all the activists going nuts about overcrowding in detention camps.

    Give the enforcement agencies what they need first. Don't administratively destroy their ability to do their jobs and give them the tools to do it. Once you send the message that we are going to protect our border, apprehend and deport those trying to come in and clean out all the immigrant felons and trash that is already here, they won't push so hard to get in. Once the border is at least more secure than it is now, then we can talk about dealing with the "dreamers." And as far as they go, I really can't add much more than what some others have said. Deport the ones who have broken the law beyond a certain point. I wouldn't even say just felons. There are some serious misdemeanors that need to be considered as well. Multiple DWI convictions? I've seen it. Assault and battery? If you have violent tendencies, get out... The ones who remain, prove when you got here. Prove what you've been doing to contribute to society (education, work skills, military etc). And the parents need to pay a fine for bringing the child here undocumented to begin with. It would be a long, tedious process. And, it won't get done. Because this is all just political BS anyway. Why was DACA brought up during this round of budget bickering? Because mid terms....

  5. #65
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    I feel like we desperately need is some form of voluntary civil service program that provides many of the same benefits (although not all) to young Americans who want to contribute to this great nation while helping to train and prepare them for a career. Provide room and board and a minimal stipend with some educational benefits at the end of 2 years and have them help in national parks, support the border patrol, etc. etc. lots of useful things we could have them do.
    I hate to admit it, but that sounds like what Obama was proposing early in his term. It was shot down hard by the right as some kind of "Obama/Hitler Youth" kind of thing. On the left, it would get shut down because it would undermine many unionized infrastructure jobs-- and heaven forbid, possibly save taxpayers some money, or at least get better services for their money. We couldn't have that!

    It may be an idea worth exploring, but I am afraid that political interests would ever let it see the light of day.

  6. #66
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    Not really off topic. I was kind of thinking that it would be nice if some of these people had other ways to contribute and prove their worth to our country. Unfortunately, not everyone is military material.
    Ok so there is a program. It's called AmeriCorps and it recieves a decent amount of federal support. Young people can volunteer and recieve a small stipend and living expenses to support a wide range of activities. This could potentially be beefed up and expanded or at least promoted more. Then again I think it tends to be associated more with do-gooder liberals so may be politically controversial.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    It's been done already- - - - -by our first Communist-in-Chief!

    http://www.history.com/topics/civili...ervation-corps

    The labor unions were "agin' it" then, also!

    Jerry
    Last edited by Teach; 01-23-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Maybe although I think you underestimate the amount of true deep seeded racism in this country.
    What's that word mean? Liberals spout it at least 10 times per paragraph - it doesn't mean anything anymore...
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    I've been a NSACAR fan for decades- - - - -I'm accustomed to being called a "race-ist"! I prefer dirt tracks to superspeedways, so I guess I'm a "dirty race-ist"!

    Jerry
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  10. #70
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    I've been a NSACAR fan for decades- - - - -I'm accustomed to being called a "race-ist"! I prefer dirt tracks to superspeedways, so I guess I'm a "dirty race-ist"!

    Jerry
    Just never sit on the outside of turn 4 of a dirt track!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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  11. #71
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Maybe although I think you underestimate the amount of true deep seeded racism in this country. Yes the debate is always focused on illegal immigrants which gives it a facade of being all about upholding the law and brings along a lot of people who don't have racist motives. The truth is there are a lot of people in this country who are not ok with the growing population of brown people who also speak Spanish in this country. I grew up in a rural town in Ohio that got an influx of legal migrant workers every year. I witnessed all sorts of over racism towards them. I hear it and see it all the time, especially when I lived in AZ. There are way more people that you're probably willing to admit who just plain don't want them here.

    Republicans have capitalized on this and both overly and covertly pander to these people. On the other side Democrats see an opportunity to caputure a growing demographic so pander to the Latino vote as well. Because this issue is so important to significant parts of both parties base it makes it really hard to compromise on even though the vast majority of us in the middle can easily come up with a reasonable compromise that makes a lot of sense.
    Funny how Republican = Racist for many when in all reality no people have done more to foment racial segregation as the Democrat party as of late. Look at the list of folks that will be absent from the State of the Union address to see a parade of our biggest racists at it's finest...

    The Republicans are pandering to folks tired of rule of law being ignored and the consequences of it on the general population as we race down a path of anarchy and unaccountability. As a Puerto Rican with many conservative minority friends that get this, I can say this with aplomb. The Democrats are pandering to the segregationists that keep us all divided and powerless and thrive on the weak-minded that will trade handouts in any form for government subjugation.

    Laws need to be obeyed and enforced or trashed and changed if no good. PERIOD! But as a country we have become too dumb not to vote for the rhetoric...
    Last edited by Wambli Ska; 01-23-2018 at 09:25 PM.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    But as a country we have become too dumb not to vote for the rhetoric...
    WORD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  13. #73
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Maybe although I think you underestimate the amount of true deep seeded racism in this country. Yes the debate is always focused on illegal immigrants which gives it a facade of being all about upholding the law and brings along a lot of people who don't have racist motives. The truth is there are a lot of people in this country who are not ok with the growing population of brown people who also speak Spanish in this country. I grew up in a rural town in Ohio that got an influx of legal migrant workers every year. I witnessed all sorts of over racism towards them. I hear it and see it all the time, especially when I lived in AZ. There are way more people that you're probably willing to admit who just plain don't want them here.

    Republicans have capitalized on this and both overly and covertly pander to these people. On the other side Democrats see an opportunity to caputure a growing demographic so pander to the Latino vote as well. Because this issue is so important to significant parts of both parties base it makes it really hard to compromise on even though the vast majority of us in the middle can easily come up with a reasonable compromise that makes a lot of sense.
    And I think that you overestimate it.

    Democrats have redefined the language in a way that lets them portray anyone who disagrees with them as racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or as any other kind of hater they need to arouse pity for those they pretend to bleed for. They have to make all of their issues about it, because it's all they know how to do. Take class envy out of their political strategy, and they would never win an election anywhere, because they don't have a clue how to solve any problem that they didn't create in the first place, by pitting one race against the other.

    Having lived among brown and black people all of my life, I like most of them just fine, and the ones I don't like has nothing to do with racism. They are all more trustworthy than liberal Democrats.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Maybe although I think you underestimate the amount of true deep seeded racism in this country................... The truth is there are a lot of people in this country who are not ok with the growing population of brown people who also speak Spanish in this country. .........................
    I suspected it wouldn't be too long before the Raaaaaaacist card would be drawn!

    and BTW:

    Deep-seeded vs. deep-seated


    Deep-seeded almost makes sense in a metaphorical way (though seeds sown too deeply won’t grow), but deep-seated is the term you’re looking for. The phrasal adjective (usually requiring a hyphen) simply indicates that something is seated (in the sense fixed firmly in place) deeply in something else. The OED defines it as having its seat far beneath the surface.
    Last edited by Make_My_Day; 01-23-2018 at 11:26 PM.
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Sorry folks. I don't care what you call it, but I put beans in my chili.

  16. #76
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    Sorry folks. I don't care what you call it, but I put beans in my chili.
    Chili ain't chili without the red beans.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.

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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Make_My_Day View Post
    Chili ain't chili without the red beans.
    Damn right!

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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Anchor babies are a misinterpretation of the 14th amendment.

  19. #79
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    Anchor babies are a misinterpretation of the 14th amendment.
    Honest question... how so?

    Amendment XIV

    Section 1.

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

  20. #80
    Senior Member Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    Sorry folks. I don't care what you call it, but I put beans in my chili.
    Racist.....

  21. #81
    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    Honest question... how so?

    Amendment XIV

    Section 1.

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    It might be legal, but I think illegal aliens and otherwise should not have their progeny given citizenship. A lot of them come here and squat out a kid just for that right.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.

  22. #82
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    Anchor babies are a misinterpretation of the 14th amendment.
    Not a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, but an unintended consequence. This amendment, along with the 13th, & 15th amendments were passed just after the Civil War to give the freed slaves citizenship and the full rights that go along with that. I seriously doubt that 150 yrs ago that any one thought about "anchor babies" as we now call them.

  23. #83
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Make_My_Day View Post
    It might be legal, but I think illegal aliens and otherwise should not have their progeny given citizenship. A lot of them come here and squat out a kid just for that right.
    You may not like it, but it's in the constitution. Don't like it find a way to pass and amendment to change it. Btw plenty of liberals don't like the 2A and make similar arguments against it. Just sayin'
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  24. #84
    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugerFan View Post
    Not a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, but an unintended consequence. This amendment, along with the 13th, & 15th amendments were passed just after the Civil War to give the freed slaves citizenship and the full rights that go along with that. I seriously doubt that 150 yrs ago that any one thought about "anchor babies" as we now call them.
    Again very similar arguments made by liberals against the 2A. "People back then could never have envisioned...insert evil firearm or accessory here".
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  25. #85
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Make_My_Day View Post
    Chili ain't chili without the red beans.
    Obviously you meant Pinto beans. Red beans are for New Orleans Beans and Rice with some nice andouille sausage and ham hocks on the side.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  26. #86
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    I kind of see the anchor baby thing as more of a symptom of our uncontrolled illegal immigration than anything else. Changing the 14th... is treating a symptom. Controlling immigration is the cure. Being granted citizenship in the country you were born in is very common around the world.
    Last edited by Jermanator; 01-24-2018 at 01:30 AM.

  27. #87
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Racist.....
    Hey! I like black beans in my chili too.

  28. #88
    Senior Member cpj's Avatar
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    By red beans do you mean kidney beans? I need to try kidney beans that are cooked at home, not out of a can.


    Self edit: deleted the comment that probably would have got deleted anyway because I told myself if I post in this section it will either be food or penis related. Butts too.
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by cpj View Post
    By red beans do you mean kidney beans? I need to try kidney beans that are cooked at home, not out of a can.
    I do kidney beans all the time at home and they are great, but I like them more firm than you do.

    To go along with your new 2A policy.... my wall decoration, plus Butt Jerm as a rest for the .338.

    There!

  30. #90
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    Re: Let's talk about dreamers

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    You may not like it, but it's in the constitution. Don't like it find a way to pass and amendment to change it. Btw plenty of liberals don't like the 2A and make similar arguments against it. Just sayin'
    The baby born here is born a citizen. Not its parents or anyone else that came here illegally.
    Last edited by Diver43; 01-24-2018 at 03:32 AM.
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