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Thread: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

  1. #31
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post


    Where’ my damn bag phone?????
    FIFY.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  2. #32
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    BTW Gemalto is a great company full of very smart people. I’ve been working with them for years on advanced tech deployment. They were largely responsible for the rollout of OnStar in Europe happening a whole year ahead of schedule.
    I'm sure it paid off too.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  3. #33
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    I'm sure it paid off too.
    Yes it did, adoption of WiFi in the car in Europe is HUGE!
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  4. #34

    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    You silly people. We have so many biometric tools available that we can tell who you are by smell...

    Seriuosly this is a silly idea, you were BORN with bar codes, they are called finger prints, retinal scans, DNA, etc. When chips get implanted into humans it will be to enhance their capabilities and senses and it will be consensual.
    But why make it easier to be tracked and controlled?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  5. #35
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    Yes it did, adoption of WiFi in the car in Europe is HUGE!
    I don't know if I'm sad, or glad, that Europeans are just as dumb as Americans.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  6. #36
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    But why make it easier to be tracked and controlled?
    As a CIA buddy told me, “There are billions of folks in the world and relatively speaking only a handful are of interest to us for VERY specific reasons. What makes YOU think you are so (redacted) special?”. Quite frankly puts a lot of stuff in perspective...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  7. #37
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    On the other hand, the narcissistic tecno-geeks who think the rest of the world gives a damn about who the are or what they're doing probably do bear watching, if only for the comic relief they provide!

    Jerry
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  8. #38
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Still use a flip phone. Does everything I need it to do, like make phone calls and take pictures. Nothing on it that would really be useful to LE or anyone else. And if I want to disable tracking, then I 'have an app for that', too. It's called removing the battery and stuffing the phone in a Faraday Cage leather bag if I'm really paranoid.

    I STILL refuse to squint at a tiny screen on a 'smart phone' to do anything internet related. I was forced to do that at the beginning of the computer age, and I'm not regressing, a.k.a. DEVOLVING, back to that ignorance and stupidity, TYVM. If I NEED a computer away from the house, I have a laptop to handle that chore, and with a BIG USABLE screen. A smartphone is too danged big to use as a phone and the screen is too danged small to use as a computer monitor. But if someone is happy with those defects then I'm happy for them!
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    My pet peeve is text messaging. If some self-centered donkeyhole is too impressed with himself to actually have a one-on one conversation over the phone, and expects to just fire off some unreadable gibberish at his/her convenience and expect me to answer it- - - - -he can take his texting and stuff it where the sun don't shine! Alexander Graham Bell improved on the system Samuel F.B. Morse invented, so people could actually have long distance conversations- - - - -isn't texting a giant leap backwards?
    Jerry
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  10. #40
    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    The advantage of texting is that you can send a message and then just wait for a response. Kind of like email. They also provide written records for future reference.
    If you want an immediate response or don’t want a record, call.

    Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk
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  11. #41
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    Still use a flip phone. Does everything I need it to do, like make phone calls and take pictures. Nothing on it that would really be useful to LE or anyone else. And if I want to disable tracking, then I 'have an app for that', too. It's called removing the battery and stuffing the phone in a Faraday Cage leather bag if I'm really paranoid.

    I STILL refuse to squint at a tiny screen on a 'smart phone' to do anything internet related. I was forced to do that at the beginning of the computer age, and I'm not regressing, a.k.a. DEVOLVING, back to that ignorance and stupidity, TYVM. If I NEED a computer away from the house, I have a laptop to handle that chore, and with a BIG USABLE screen. A smartphone is too danged big to use as a phone and the screen is too danged small to use as a computer monitor. But if someone is happy with those defects then I'm happy for them!
    WORD.

    Although I still do miss my bag fone - never had to worry about batteries! But I've said it 10,000 times: smartfone - too big to be a fone, WAAAAAY too small to be a computer. And we won't discuss the costs!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  12. #42

    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    As a CIA buddy told me, “There are billions of folks in the world and relatively speaking only a handful are of interest to us for VERY specific reasons. What makes YOU think you are so (redacted) special?”. Quite frankly puts a lot of stuff in perspective...
    As someone who was a subject of a wiretap by a nutso sheriffs office a long time ago, I don’t think I’m special. Just unlucky enough to catch the brown end of the stick an inordinate amount of times.

    Never give away a right without a fight
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  13. #43
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Never give away a right without a fight
    Remember, the Telcos only have your best interests at heart...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  14. #44
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    My pet peeve is text messaging. If some self-centered donkeyhole is too impressed with himself to actually have a one-on one conversation over the phone, and expects to just fire off some unreadable gibberish at his/her convenience and expect me to answer it- - - - -he can take his texting and stuff it where the sun don't shine! Alexander Graham Bell improved on the system Samuel F.B. Morse invented, so people could actually have long distance conversations- - - - -isn't texting a giant leap backwards?
    Jerry
    I like texting for simple, mostly one-way messages such as "I got here safely", or "I'm on my way", or "Dinner will be late", etc. I don't like it for extended 2 way conversations, or even 1 way transmissions that are overly long - that's what email is for.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  15. #45
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    As someone who was a subject of a wiretap by a nutso sheriffs office a long time ago, I don’t think I’m special. Just unlucky enough to catch the brown end of the stick an inordinate amount of times.

    Never give away a right without a fight
    Agreed but technology use brings a lot of benefits to the population at large and regardless of what is going on there will always be isolated abuses of power and folks that will not “like” or will outright resist the changes. These abuses of power need to be dealt with!!! BUT we need to ensure that making improvements in our life that are desired by many, if not outright most, is not blocked by trying to pander to the few and folks enthralled by low percentage scenarios. These folks all have an option to not adapt/adopt like Zorba and others here.

    As to giving a right away, we need to accept that privacy is not a right but a state of being that needs to be personally protected and is almost impossible to legally enforce (out of the mouth of two family membes both of which are brilliant and very accomplished lawyers). Can’t jail someone for being a peeping Tom if you decide to have sex with the wife in front of a glass door facing Main Street.

    All of us are faced with a decision as to how much “privacy” we want to maintain and actively safeguarding it ourselves every day, AND how much we are willing to give away for the sake of expediency and convenience. Gemalto is just trying to throw crap at the wall to see what sticks as a business concept but this one I believe is a little bit of a loser and even if ever implemented it’s still like boarding passes on airlines. Some of us will use the phone, others still want that paper copy.

    BTW the question on my post was generic and was not meant to address you specifically or appear contentious. I was just recounting the question he threw at me that made me re-consider my position quite a bit. Plus I thought it was funny...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  16. #46
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    I completely agree that people have an option whether or not to adopt anything - and I have opted not to do so for much. Not even so much a privacy issue - although there's "that too" - but because of the INSANE cost of this stuff, and its poor return for same.

    BUT

    I completely and vehemently disagree that privacy is not a right: The Telcos (and others) have brainwashed the masses into this thinking - and that we all need "real time access" 100% of the time. The latter is just good marketing, the former is insidious and I reject it for the creeping EVIL that it is.

    The boarding passes on fones accomplish exactly nothing except to slow the line down. It takes 2 to 4 times the time to process the digital pass as opposed to handing the guy a paper one - I don't even have to stop walking. On the other hand, it probably doesn't matter anyway, because the line comes to a creeping halt while the loaders load their overseas bags into the thrice-cursed overhead bins instead of checking the damn things...

    NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  17. #47

    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    Remember, the Telcos only have your best interests at heart...
    Who gives a crap about the Telcos. They I understand- they are driven by profit. That is simple, and understandable.

    Govt. is driven by power and the need to control. THEY are the ones you need to worry about- and handing a Govt agent (police officer) an unlocked phone is giving away your expectation of privacy to everything on that phone. Bad idea.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  18. #48
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    "They" wouldn't be able to make much from my flip fone in any event! I delete all call records daily - and wish it had an option to just not remember anything. In any event, there's nothing else there...

    Its getting harder and harder and harder to delete stuff on any kind of computer or device. Shoot, eBay won't even let you delete things from their message system.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  19. #49

    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post

    As to giving a right away, we need to accept that privacy is not a right but a state of being that needs to be personally protected and is almost impossible to legally enforce (out of the mouth of two family membes both of which are brilliant and very accomplished lawyers). Can’t jail someone for being a peeping Tom if you decide to have sex with the wife in front of a glass door facing Main Street.
    Privacy is a right, and is enshrined in our constitution:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    For companies, if you sign away your privacy to be a user, fine. But for Govt- they should have to WORK for it to get the information. Don't just hand then an unlocked phone.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov

  20. #50
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    The old "giving up freedom for "security" argument has been around a lot longer than the latest gee-whiz electronic devices. There will always be a few (or a bunch) of people who just have to have the latest tech fad available, and personal privacy be damned. There will also be people, (and companies) that are glad to exploit them to improve their bottom line. Keep feeding the bear, folks- - - - -he might be kind enough to eat you last!
    Jerry
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  21. #51
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    I completely agree that people have an option whether or not to adopt anything - and I have opted not to do so for much. Not even so much a privacy issue - although there's "that too" - but because of the INSANE cost of this stuff, and its poor return for same.

    BUT

    I completely and vehemently disagree that privacy is not a right: The Telcos (and others) have brainwashed the masses into this thinking - and that we all need "real time access" 100% of the time. The latter is just good marketing, the former is insidious and I reject it for the creeping EVIL that it is.

    The boarding passes on fones accomplish exactly nothing except to slow the line down. It takes 2 to 4 times the time to process the digital pass as opposed to handing the guy a paper one - I don't even have to stop walking. On the other hand, it probably doesn't matter anyway, because the line comes to a creeping halt while the loaders load their overseas bags into the thrice-cursed overhead bins instead of checking the damn things...

    NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!
    You can disagree with me but NO ONE has been able to successfully state what a general "right to privacy" is in a legal or even academic definition. There are laws that safeguard certain parts of a persons life/information but as a general principle the "Right to Privacy is neither enumerated in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in our countries founding documents. It is a debate that is going on today in legal circles even stronger than ever. I believe the supreme court has defined that certain amendments give you a right to privacy from government intrusion but even that is tenuous at best. The best definition I have found was crafted in Israel:

    "The right to privacy is our right to keep a domain around us, which includes all those things that are part of us, such as our body, home, property, thoughts, feelings, secrets and identity. The right to privacy gives us the ability to choose which parts in this domain can be accessed by others, and to control the extent, manner and timing of the use of those parts we choose to disclose."

    And here is another one that I agree with:

    Each individual is continually engaged in a personal adjustment process in which he balances the desire for privacy with the desire for disclosure and communication of himself to others, in light of the environmental conditions and social norms set by the society in which he lives. — Alan Westin, Privacy and Freedom, 1968

    And Telcos have nothing to do with brainwashing anyone. Legally approved products are offered to the markets and folks buy them or not. Not that it matters to anyone but there are no secret meetings in which we plan to brainwash the masses to accomplish some nefarious plot. Though the idea is HIGHLY entertaining

    Now if you excuse me I have a conference call with the guys from Cyberdyne Systems and some dudes from the Umbrella Corp.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  22. #52
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Who gives a crap about the Telcos. They I understand- they are driven by profit. That is simple, and understandable.

    Govt. is driven by power and the need to control. THEY are the ones you need to worry about- and handing a Govt agent (police officer) an unlocked phone is giving away your expectation of privacy to everything on that phone. Bad idea.
    IF this is ever implemented I can guarantee you that just like TSA and the airline employees, LEO's will NOT be able to handle your phone anymore than they can take your wallet with your license in it when you offer it. Just like at the airport you will be asked to lay your phone down on some sort of scanner...

    Much more likely? In a few years you will be asked to lay your thumb on some sort of scanner to verify your identity and that will link to your state database that will give the LEO everything he needs to know about you. The funny part is that this will immediately flag anyone that is in the country illegally and bring up any warrants they have on them. All of it a GREAT thing!!!

    In either case I'll be able to leave my stupid wallet at home and just carry my phone with me and pay for everything with Apple pay
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  23. #53
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Watch any episode of "Cops" or "Live TV"- - - - -the cops "detain" somebody as a matter of routine on some bogus "suspicion" like "I smell pot"- - - - -then the sniffer dog alerts on command, and they proceed to search everywhere- - - - -billfolds, purses, the spare tire well of a car, under the hood, etc. Object to the process, and you risk getting maced, tazed, or shot! If any repercussions for their behavior ever happen, it's months or years later in some courtroom, where all but the most egregious offenses (documented by audio and video recording) are thrown out by that other government employee, the judge. The BS about being "secure" is just that- - - -a huge load of fertilizer.
    Jerry
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  24. #54
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    Watch any episode of "Cops" or "Live TV"- - - - -the cops "detain" somebody as a matter of routine on some bogus "suspicion" like "I smell pot"- - - - -then the sniffer dog alerts on command, and they proceed to search everywhere- - - - -billfolds, purses, the spare tire well of a car, under the hood, etc. Object to the process, and you risk getting maced, tazed, or shot! If any repercussions for their behavior ever happen, it's months or years later in some courtroom, where all but the most egregious offenses (documented by audio and video recording) are thrown out by that other government employee, the judge. The BS about being "secure" is just that- - - -a huge load of fertilizer.
    Jerry
    Yep, I watch those episodes too and they are very entertaining. But I also believe those are the exception and not the rule and in a country of 330,000,000+ people my chances of being a victim of a cop are far smaller than the chances of getting hit by lightning while I'm fishing. The ONE LEO that ever gave me a hard time got fired for it and all he did was yell at me in a disrespectful manner.

    Does it happen? Sure. Anyway as much as many think it does? I really don't think so. Unfortunately our friends in the media live off FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) in the genral population and will do anything within their power to make sure we live in THAT state...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  25. #55
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    It happens often enough to support a BUNCH of TV shows for years at a time. Not every PD is as responsive to well-heeled citizens' complaints as the one you dealt with. Rural cop shops in a lot of the southeast are corrupt organizations tasked with supporting the local politicians and elites, and generating cash flow for the court system and local government from the citizens least able to protest the treatment they're getting.
    Jerry
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  26. #56
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    It happens often enough to support a BUNCH of TV shows for years at a time. Not every PD is as responsive to well-heeled citizens' complaints as the one you dealt with. Rural cop shops in a lot of the southeast are corrupt organizations tasked with supporting the local politicians and elites, and generating cash flow for the court system and local government from the citizens least able to protest the treatment they're getting.
    Jerry
    And that is a valid point. We had that issue with a small PD in upstate NY near me. Local folks put up with it for a long time until they figured out the local folks were double dipping as LEO and also "helping" doing county sheriff duties like delivering subpoenas and such. That would have been fine except they got caught doing BOTH at the same time, EXTENSIVELY... So the locals went up in arms and there was a whole lot of firings, big fines, monies paid back, salaries garnished and such. Local judges could not cover for the officers and the locals pushed HARD for a whole lot of payback since the LEOs had no friends in town. These things have a way of catching up to folks given some time...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  27. #57
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    The big city PD's don't bother with small time crime- - - - -they're more prone to shake the money tree around small businesses. A retired Nashville cop used to run a "private security" business, and offer his services to businesses that had been burglarized recently, and had trouble getting on-duty detectives to investigate the incidents. Dad informed him that his shop had its own security system after a break-in, involving him or his business partner sleeping at the shop on a random schedule with their shotguns handy. Not only their shop, but businesses for a couple of blocks around suddenly experienced a sharp drop in vandalism/burglary! What a coincidence!
    Jerry
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  28. #58
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    The big city PD's don't bother with small time crime- - - - -they're more prone to shake the money tree around small businesses. A retired Nashville cop used to run a "private security" business, and offer his services to businesses that had been burglarized recently, and had trouble getting on-duty detectives to investigate the incidents. Dad informed him that his shop had its own security system after a break-in, involving him or his business partner sleeping at the shop on a random schedule with their shotguns handy. Not only their shop, but businesses for a couple of blocks around suddenly experienced a sharp drop in vandalism/burglary! What a coincidence!
    Jerry
    Funny how that works...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  29. #59
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    You can disagree with me but NO ONE has been able to successfully state what a general "right to privacy" is in a legal or even academic definition. There are laws that safeguard certain parts of a persons life/information but as a general principle the "Right to Privacy is neither enumerated in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in our countries founding documents. It is a debate that is going on today in legal circles even stronger than ever. I believe the supreme court has defined that certain amendments give you a right to privacy from government intrusion but even that is tenuous at best.
    I'll agree that its hard to define - anything that touches on morality/ethics is just that: Hard to define. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist - despite what Telcos et al are trying to get everyone to believe (and have largely succeeded).

    BUT

    I, and everybody else, has a God/Gods/Goddess/Goddesses/whatever the hell - given RIGHT to privacy. I don't give a TINKER'S DAMN what anyone, or anything says about it. PERIOD. THE END. FINIS.

    The sweet seductive whisper, "Oh, give us just a little of you information and/or give up a little bit of your freedom" that government, and big business - especially Telcos - murmur into my ear doesn't play here. Just another claw in the long hand of Mordor. Cablecos and Telcos have managed to brainwash the masses into paying absurd amounts of money for pseudo-services that have little or no tangible benefit - and/or that can be done far cheaper and better in a different way.

    As I've said before, I was once a huge proponent of the miracles of technology. That was centuries before everything was "monetized" and turned into a data mine. I've grown up since then, and "know better" as I've seen it all before.

    So - GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN.

    For those still tuned in - my primary concern as far as privacy goes, has to do with the "black hats". Yea, I don't want gov't or big business into my data, but they're the least of it. I owned, used, built, and even designed computers before most people had ever even seen one. I know many, many ways to circumvent security measures - and I'm not even "up on" the latest techniques nor vulnerabilities. They're far worse than even I know. "Code monkeys" that never bothered to take, much less pass, CS-101 at the local JC are a HUGE part of the problem.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  30. #60
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    17,718

    Re: Digital driverís license - your ID in your smartphone

    I do some pretty obscure internet searches- - - - -mostly involving looking for repair information and/or parts for engines 50-100 years old. Within minutes of doing a search like that, I'm inundated with pop-up ads for products directly related to the subject I'm researching. Coincidence? I was born at night- - - -but it wasn't last night!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite

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