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Thread: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    The Democrats are setting up for another immigration boondoggle. Schumer wants a clean bill for DACA - in other words, they want the DACA deal without having to address border security, visa lottery, or chain migration, or anything else that stops the flow of illegals before giving amnesty and citizenship to the millions they intend to get included in the DACA deal. It is a recurring nightmare, in which the Democrats get what they want, and then refuse to negotiate on border security issues. They have been running the same scam since the mid '80's, and the Republicans have been bending over and grabbing their ankles, ever since.

    Trump has said he will veto it if the Republicans go along with it again. If the Republicans cave on this one, they are toast, for the foreseeable future. There are already rumblings over the budget deal, in which they had to give in on Democrat entitlements to get the military funded, with the result of blowing any chance of reducing the deficit for the next two years, at least. If they give Democrats the DACA deal, before they pass the security bills, they give up any leverage they might have had to regain control of illegal immigration.

    The bottom line is that the Democrats will keep no promises made to Republicans that are not backed up by painful recriminations for reneging on the deal. Either the whole bill is passed and funded in 'one fell swoop,' or Republicans have to walk away from it, altogether. This is what has been taught to them over the last 30 years, and conservatives have learned it well. The problem is the McCainiacs and the milquetoast moderates, who would rather play nice with the Democrats while they are slowly inserting the knife into their backs.

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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Border security and the DACA mess are Siamese twins that can't be separated as long as the Democrats are lying sacks of festering maggot ridden excrement. If the Repubs cave and do what the Democrats want on a clean DACA only bill then they are in for some surprises. And I'm not talking about the Trump veto. There may be a HUGE housecleaning in the House AND Senate if they try to blow off border security to appease the Democrats.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    Border security and the DACA mess are Siamese twins that can't be separated as long as the Democrats are lying sacks of festering maggot ridden excrement. If the Repubs cave and do what the Democrats want on a clean DACA only bill then they are in for some surprises. And I'm not talking about the Trump veto. There may be a HUGE housecleaning in the House AND Senate if they try to blow off border security to appease the Democrats.
    Democrats gaining the majority would be the worst possible outcome of this fiasco. If they cave, I would look more towards primarying them out rather than staying home.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Goddess help us all.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    There may be a HUGE housecleaning in the House AND Senate if they try to blow off border security to appease the Democrats.
    Horsesqueeze. People will vote in their incumbent and say "At least he/ she/ it isn't a Democrat!" and we will continue to get the same march toward socialism that we are experiencing now.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Horsesqueeze. People will vote in their incumbent and say "At least he/ she/ it isn't a Democrat!" and we will continue to get the same march toward socialism that we are experiencing now.
    Yep.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    Yep.
    Agreed.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Speak for yourselves. My reps are Louis Gohmert and Ted Cruz. I approve of 99.99% of their votes. I haven't voted for John Cornyn in any primary, but even he usually votes right - you just can't trust him to do it when no one is looking.

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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    This is a manufactured crisis. Nobody had to set the March 5 deadline for it to expire, but it happened so here we are. Trump deliberately went out of his way to force the issue. He got what he wanted.

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    Senior Member Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermanator View Post
    This is a manufactured crisis. Nobody had to set the March 5 deadline for it to expire, but it happened so here we are. Trump deliberately went out of his way to force the issue. He got what he wanted.
    You're right. It is a manufactured crisis. But if a deadline had not been set, nothing would get done. Now, it's a matter of how bad what they end up doing is going to be. DACA was a manufactured crisis when Obama signed it. The democrats will throw temper tantrums all day and blame the republicans for whatever happens, all the while painting them as racist, mean, immigrant haters. No matter what, the republicans lose and we'll end up right back where we started anyway.

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    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    The Democrats are setting up for another immigration boondoggle. Schumer wants a clean bill for DACA - in other words, they want the DACA deal without having to address border security, visa lottery, or chain migration, or anything else that stops the flow of illegals before giving amnesty and citizenship to the millions they intend to get included in the DACA deal. It is a recurring nightmare, in which the Democrats get what they want, and then refuse to negotiate on border security issues. They have been running the same scam since the mid '80's, and the Republicans have been bending over and grabbing their ankles, ever since.

    Trump has said he will veto it if the Republicans go along with it again. If the Republicans cave on this one, they are toast, for the foreseeable future. There are already rumblings over the budget deal, in which they had to give in on Democrat entitlements to get the military funded, with the result of blowing any chance of reducing the deficit for the next two years, at least. If they give Democrats the DACA deal, before they pass the security bills, they give up any leverage they might have had to regain control of illegal immigration.

    The bottom line is that the Democrats will keep no promises made to Republicans that are not backed up by painful recriminations for reneging on the deal. Either the whole bill is passed and funded in 'one fell swoop,' or Republicans have to walk away from it, altogether. This is what has been taught to them over the last 30 years, and conservatives have learned it well. The problem is the McCainiacs and the milquetoast moderates, who would rather play nice with the Democrats while they are slowly inserting the knife into their backs.
    Funny pretty much all of the above is how most Democrats felt about the entire Obama administration. The minority party wields a ton of power these days. They get to dictate terms on a ton of stuff or at least extract concessions while blaming the other party for basically everything. It's almost entirely a win win other than the benefits of holding the power of the executive.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Horsesqueeze. People will vote in their incumbent and say "At least he/ she/ it isn't a Democrat!" and we will continue to get the same march toward socialism that we are experiencing now.
    At least in TN Marsha Blackburn is running for the Senate seat being vacated by that RINO turd Corker. She should be a shoo in for that seat. My Congresscritter in the House is pretty good most of the time, especially on things that matter.

    But the representatives from the BIG 4 (Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Chattanooga) will get reelected, as you say. Being as how those places are Democrat majority cesspools that will be the norm. Paraphrasing Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. You will never find more wretched hives of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society. --Mark Twain

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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Funny pretty much all of the above is how most Democrats felt about the entire Obama administration. The minority party wields a ton of power these days. They get to dictate terms on a ton of stuff or at least extract concessions while blaming the other party for basically everything. It's almost entirely a win win other than the benefits of holding the power of the executive.
    It's going to continue in the same vein until the Democrats find more moderate candidates. Their radical left forces Republicans further to the right, and creates gridlock, which is the best that can be achieved in a distrustful atmosphere. Negotiating with the lefties is almost identical to negotiating with the Palestinians, or the old Soviet Union. The best government, if there is such a thing, occurs when both sides are sensible and can meet in the middle. But the Democrats finally sold completely out to the left in about 2000, and adopted Alinksi's formulas, which are basically just the old Communist Party's methods - half-truths, outright lies, renege on deals, bait and switch, and straw man arguments. They haven't had the nerve to make a genuine party platform since the civil rights movement, for fear that they would be abandoned, if they told the truth. They call themselves liberals or progressives, if they can even be pinned down to admitting any ideology, but they are simply variations of all the Utopian ideologies that have already failed, worldwide.

    As for the Republicans, the old time northeastern liberals moderated a bit towards the conservative wing, but still sneak around and vote with the Democrats when they think they can get away with it (it's easier to get elected when you give stuff away).

    Meanwhile, the conservatives remained pretty much the same as always, regarding small government, at least. They have compromised occasionally, but usually swerve back into their lanes before getting too far off the reservation.

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    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    ........But the Democrats finally sold completely out to the left in about 2000, and adopted Alinksi's formulas, which are basically just the old Communist Party's methods - half-truths, outright lies, renege on deals, bait and switch, and straw man arguments..........
    I am a member of a facebook group called "the Democrats are the new Communists," and I can't find any flaws in that name assignment.
    Political correctness is a liberal degrading of the freedom of speech. George Orwell's 1984 famously incorporated the notion of limiting thought through language (see Newspeak)." Meanwhile, the beatings will continue until morale improves around here.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Do remember that the reverse is also true: The further Right the GOP goes, and the more they thump a certain BOOK (which, refreshingly, isn't happening all that much right now for a change), the further Left the Dems go. Its a sick cycle all the way around.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    Do remember that the reverse is also true: The further Right the GOP goes, and the more they thump a certain BOOK (which, refreshingly, isn't happening all that much right now for a change), the further Left the Dems go. Its a sick cycle all the way around.
    I don't want to get into that worn-out 'discussion' again, but I will say that the moderation that occurred among conservatives, throughout the 70's and 80's has made conservative thought more palatable to me. The Bible-thumping Democrats in the 50's and 60's were definitely a pain in the ass, but by the time I reached voting age, Republicans had simply become the party of small government, strong military, lower taxes, less regulation, and strong individualism that appealed to me. In other words, it had replaced the Democrats as the 'Big Tent' party, allowing people of widely varying economic and cultural points-of-view to align with each other to promote common interests.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    Republicans had simply become the party of small government, strong military, lower taxes, less regulation, and strong individualism that appealed to me.
    Which I read as "Libertarian" (Not necessarily the party of the same name) - which is how it should be. So what happened?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    What happened is that they became the Freedom Caucus, and are attacked by the party leadership of the Republican Party as obstructionists, whenever they won't agree with RINOS, as well as the media and ALL Democrats. Lately, they have gone along with a good bit of stuff they don't like, to get important stuff that they consider vital. Sometimes, they do it because of promises made of revisiting the parts they don't like, and they have done it a few times to support the President when he needed it badly, for what they considered good reasons.

    You can only do what you can do, when you have less than 25% of the votes.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    What happened is that they became the Freedom Caucus, and are attacked by the party leadership of the Republican Party as obstructionists...
    You mean the same IDIOTS that fought Trump tooth and nail - and apparently still are?

    Get a rope!
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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    I'm at the point in my thinking that the only way to make things work again is a Third American Revolutionary War. The Left is solidly entrenched in the Socialist/Communist/Fascist mishmash of political theory, and the mainstream Right is somewhere out there in Loony Tune land. And the distance between Left and Right is not more than the thickness of a piece of copy paper. They both have the same end game, just differ in how to get there. The First Revolutionary War freed us from Great Britain, the Second (Civil War) was lost and put us where we now find ourselves, and the Third one, if fought, will be bloodier by far than the other two; a lot of slag has built up and needs to be removed from the melting pot. And if the Third is fought, being a politician is going to be a VERY bad thing to be in those times. And the breakup of the U.S. into three or four, or more, sections is highly likely. And if it ISN'T fought, then welcome to the United Communist States of America, with hammer and sickle on the flag.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba View Post
    You mean the same IDIOTS that fought Trump tooth and nail - and apparently still are?

    Get a rope!
    You've lost me. I don't even know what you're talking about, now. Maybe I never did.

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    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by tennmike View Post
    The First Revolutionary War freed us from Great Britain, the Second (Civil War) was lost and put us where we now find ourselves, and the Third one, if fought, will be bloodier by far than the other two; a lot of slag has built up and needs to be removed from the melting pot.
    If it's inevitable, I hope it happens before I get too feeble to pull a trigger- - - - -I missed out on the other two!
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    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    If it's inevitable, I hope it happens before I get too feeble to pull a trigger- - - - -I missed out on the other two!
    Jerry
    Me, too. I think I have a few axes to grind before I become worm food.
    Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
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    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisley View Post
    It's going to continue in the same vein until the Democrats find more moderate candidates. Their radical left forces Republicans further to the right, and creates gridlock, which is the best that can be achieved in a distrustful atmosphere. Negotiating with the lefties is almost identical to negotiating with the Palestinians, or the old Soviet Union. The best government, if there is such a thing, occurs when both sides are sensible and can meet in the middle. But the Democrats finally sold completely out to the left in about 2000, and adopted Alinksi's formulas, which are basically just the old Communist Party's methods - half-truths, outright lies, renege on deals, bait and switch, and straw man arguments. They haven't had the nerve to make a genuine party platform since the civil rights movement, for fear that they would be abandoned, if they told the truth. They call themselves liberals or progressives, if they can even be pinned down to admitting any ideology, but they are simply variations of all the Utopian ideologies that have already failed, worldwide.

    As for the Republicans, the old time northeastern liberals moderated a bit towards the conservative wing, but still sneak around and vote with the Democrats when they think they can get away with it (it's easier to get elected when you give stuff away).

    Meanwhile, the conservatives remained pretty much the same as always, regarding small government, at least. They have compromised occasionally, but usually swerve back into their lanes before getting too far off the reservation.
    Definitely a self reinforcing cycle. Not just in Congress but people too. Social media and the internet accelerates things, allowing people to find their comfortable bubbles and stay in them and reinforcing people's moves to the extreme. The type of moderates you talk about don't exist because neither side allows them or at least marginalizes them. How many time has the word Rino been used derogatorily here? Everyone is convinced that their way is the only way and anyone who feels differently is the enemy. I'm not sure how we reverse the trend. Maybe we don't. Seems like it will take something big.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
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    Senior Member early's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Definitely a self reinforcing cycle. Not just in Congress but people too. Social media and the internet accelerates things, allowing people to find their comfortable bubbles and stay in them and reinforcing people's moves to the extreme. The type of moderates you talk about don't exist because neither side allows them or at least marginalizes them. How many time has the word Rino been used derogatorily here? Everyone is convinced that their way is the only way and anyone who feels differently is the enemy. I'm not sure how we reverse the trend. Maybe we don't. Seems like it will take something big.
    I think this is accurate, but not necessarily the path of inevitable doom. It's been more or less prevalent for 200+ years.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.

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    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    The type of moderates you talk about don't exist because neither side allows them or at least marginalizes them.
    WORD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
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  27. #27
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    That's because the extremes are so far apart that a moderate who chooses a place halfway between them is a liberal. The RINOS fit that bill pretty well on most issues, but they do, at least, still favor capitalism. The only group that has stuck to their principles, without trashing the Constitution, are the conservatives. The kind of moderate I'm talking about is the one who is halfway between conservatives and RINOs, because the RINOS are almost identical to what Democrats were, before they embraced the Alinski rules and abandoned the Constitution.

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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    What I found interesting is that on what was voted on, one side got the wall they wanted and the other side got the citizenship they wanted but they still couldn't make an agreement. That said, I think both the wall and citizenship is stupid, but apparently isn't about me and what I want.

  29. #29
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    What I want is the border secured, and diligent round-up and deportation of illegals. That can be done without any bill being passed, although fences and enhanced surveillance could make it cheaper, in the long run.

    If they are gonna pass a bill, I want extra funding for the fences and enhanced surveillance, restrictions on the chain migrations, and end the visa lottery. I'll accept whatever on DACA, as long as it is keyed to the border being secure. Until that happens (never), I'll accept the status quo, as long as they keep squeezing on the border.

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    Re: Republicans getting sucked in on Immigration...Again?

    I am all for border security but against a willy nilly solution that some idiot spouts out as a campaign promise. If a wall works in some areas, so be it. If other solutions are more effective-- bring it on. They need to be explored. We deserve better than some half assed measure.

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