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Thread: Active School Shooting

  1. #151
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by BAMAAK View Post
    Schools around here have one way in during school hours and you have to be buzzed in. They see who it is by a camera at the door. Not foolproof by any means but at least a layer of security. Perhaps that one door should have an armed police officer at it. We seem to spend more money protecting airplanes, courthouses and football games than our kids.

    I'd be all for an increase in taxes if they earmarked it for school security. But they could fund it with govt cutbacks easy enough.
    One of the things we recommended was creating man-traps at visitor entrances...bullet resistant glass inside and out....a person could get into the exterior doors but has to be identified and buzzed in the inner doors....if the person requesting entry is a threat both sets of doors are locked electronically until a security or law enforcement presence arrives to sort it out...

    Cutting down the number of entrances and using card reader activated turnstiles at the remaining entrances also work. We used them at one of the facilities I worked at and they worked well and completely stopped the practice of " piggybacking" where a person with credentials could allow another person in..
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

  2. #152
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Just allowing teachers to conceal carry at school if they paid for their own training would be better than nothing. My wife is a teacher and has a CWFL. She carries any time she is not at school. We would happily pay for her to get specialized training if that would allow her to carry at school. I think you would be surprised at how many teachers feel the same way. Don't assume the majority of teachers are liberal. The unions they are forced to join in order to be employed as a teacher are the liberals.

  3. #153
    Senior Member CHIRO1989's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    On a positive note, NPR interviewed 2 kids, a male and a female, that went to school at the most recent shooting, on the radio this afternoon and they both said the problem was a mentally unstable person got a gun, the guns were not the problem, that was one disappointed NPR interviewer, but, they ran the interview.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

  4. #154
    Senior Member jbp-ohio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post

    As to arming teachers....let's face it, having the desire to carry a firearm and meeting the minimum qualification to do so, in no way prepares anyone to engage in a gunfight with a crazed bad guy. These folks have to have a modicum of training...now...do we really expect a school system that has teachers paying for basic school supplies out of their own pockets to pony up for regular training on how to survive a gunfight?
    An armed teacher with minimum training has a better chance than an unarmed teacher.

    A 10% chance is better than 0%

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  5. #155
    Senior Member knitepoet's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jbp-ohio View Post
    An armed teacher with minimum training has a better chance than an unarmed teacher.

    A 10% chance is better than 0%
    Quote Originally Posted by Seven habits of highly effective pirates
    Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jbp-ohio View Post
    An armed teacher with minimum training has a better chance than an unarmed teacher.

    A 10% chance is better than 0% chance.
    A gun is better than a sharp pencil.

    My kids go to a school with armed teachers. I’ve offered and trained a few. I often go on field trips because they know I’m armed.

    They aren’t Tier 1............but I feel my kids have a fighting chance.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith

  7. #157
    Senior Member breamfisher's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    I just want to be clear: I'm not against teachers being allowed to carry firearms. I'm not against parents being allowed to carry firearms. I'm not against more LE or bringing armed security to schools. I'm definitely not against hardening the schools.

    I just don't see school administrators and taxpayers, at least in my area, ponying up the money for possible higher pay, definitely higher insurance, more personnel, and the facilities changes. I don't have a problem with the spending and the taxes, but I know a lot of people will.
    Overkill is underrated.

  8. #158

    Re: Active School Shooting

    There are a few districts here in Texas that allow the teachers to be armed:

    http://kxan.com/2018/02/16/north-tex...tect-students/
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  9. #159
    Senior Member bisley's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by 10canyon53 View Post
    Just allowing teachers to conceal carry at school if they paid for their own training would be better than nothing. My wife is a teacher and has a CWFL. She carries any time she is not at school. We would happily pay for her to get specialized training if that would allow her to carry at school. I think you would be surprised at how many teachers feel the same way. Don't assume the majority of teachers are liberal. The unions they are forced to join in order to be employed as a teacher are the liberals.
    Absolutely correct. Administrators seem only to be concerned with not running afoul of the federal government, and seem not to be very good at solving any other problems.

    Both of my daughters know that I will give them a handgun, teach them the basics, and pay for all the training they want, if they just say the word.

    They have both dealt with students, past and present, who fit the profile. My youngest has been dealing with a 9 yo that should be locked in a rubber room, and the school administration doesn't know what to do with him. It's frightening to think what he might be in a few more years, and they can't pass him on to someone who is qualified to deal with him.

  10. #160
    Senior Member zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Once again:

    In the first place, God created idiots. That was for practice. Then He created school boards. --Mark Twain

    and by extension, school administrators of all sorts - most of which are only interested in protecting their 6 figure salaries they do little to earn.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
    "Religion can't be allowed the coercive power of government,
    government can't be allowed the 'moral' justification of religion."

  11. #161
    Senior Member NCFUBAR's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by breamfisher View Post
    I just want to be clear: I'm not against teachers being allowed to carry firearms. I'm not against parents being allowed to carry firearms. I'm not against more LE or bringing armed security to schools. I'm definitely not against hardening the schools.

    I just don't see school administrators and taxpayers, at least in my area, ponying up the money for possible higher pay, definitely higher insurance, more personnel, and the facilities changes. I don't have a problem with the spending and the taxes, but I know a lot of people will.
    Yep, and when the free spirited creative teachers see just adding a couple more SROs per school cost $80-100k miminum they’ll start screaming “that money could be used for ______!” if we just had strong gun laws.

    I only know one thing ... there is no simple ONE solution to attacks on schools. One side screams for gun bans which just means if the attacker can’t get a gun he’ll find another method from knife to pipe bomb to truck or so on ... where there is a will there is a way. The other side says arm teachers ... like Bream says ... if they are capable let ‘em! but don’t count on it the prevent anything just hopefully stop an attack way sooner. Others say fences and locked doors ... if the attackers is a student at that school they will know tricks of the school and how to slip in just like I’m sure we all did when we were in school. The problem is not with the school or the gun ... it is with the attacker. Society has slipped so far down the crapper in the past decades most here don’t leave home without some form of self defense ... if not a couple. Youth today acting this way make me wonder just what society’s value in the coming decades.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
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  12. #162
    Senior Member knitepoet's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Anyone notice the reports of the number of school shooters that were on psychological drugs at the time?

    Seen the commercials for some of them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seven habits of highly effective pirates
    Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.

  13. #163
    Senior Member sgtrock21's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    The only FOX News I watch is Sunday Morning with Chris Wallace. While addressing the FL school shooting and gun control it was stated and displayed on screen that citizens have to be 21 or over pass NICS and complete a 3 day waiting period for handguns and 18 or over pass NICS and have no waiting period for an AR-15. It implied to me this was federal law. Wait! What! When was the federal waiting period for handgun purchases (Brady Bill) reinstated? I searched online and was relived that there is no federal waiting period but disturbed that 26 states have one! Washington recently passed a 3 day waiting period. Commiefornia requires 10 days for all firearms! Oregon still has none. I tried to find a list of all states with waiting periods but it appears to be a secret. There appears to a demand for legislation to eliminate the method (gun control) and little interest in addressing the problem (mental illness).

  14. #164
    Senior Member NCFUBAR's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    As to waiting periods ... they “might” stop a few “crimes of passion” things unless the person hell bent on hurting someone is smart enough to use a knife, baseball bat, truck etc ... but waiting periods most likely have little to no influence on planned crimes. Yep, I’d give odds that any of the “mass shooters” going back say 50 years to Whitman in Austin had their gun(s) loooooooong before they went on there rampage. Waiting periods like many other gun control measure are just empty motions to make people feel warm and fuzzy.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
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  15. #165
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Jay, how do you propose to evacuate a school building with possibly thousands of kids inside on two or three floors through those "man traps" in case of a fire or a natural disaster like an approaching tornado? On a purely practical approach, try getting all of them in or out through a single, secure access point efficiently at the beginning and end of the school day. Like I mentioned above, the school where I worked for 20-something years had about 100 exits with panic bar doors- - - -ALL of which had to remain unlocked for quick exit purposes by state law. Any of them could be disabled with a pebble, a stick, or a school book by an inside accomplice, allowing easy access from the outside. Yes, we had security cameras watching most, but not all of them.

    "Building security" is a myth anyway- - - - -those double opening hallway doors can be forced open with a quick push by a car bumper in about 5 seconds- - - - -the center latch jamb is held in with about 4 lag bolts or sheet metal screws. Even wire-reinforced safety glass windows will yield to a sledgehammer. One of my students threw another kid through a pane of glass like that during a fight.
    Jerry
    Last edited by Teach; 02-18-2018 at 06:40 PM.
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  16. #166
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    Jay, how do you propose to evacuate a school building with possibly thousands of kids inside on two or three floors through those "man traps" in case of a fire or a natural disaster like an approaching tornado? Like I mentioned above, the school where I worked for 20-something years had about 100 exits with panic bar doors- - - -ALL of which had to remain unlocked for quick exit purposes by state law. Any of them could be disabled with a pebble, a stick, or a school book by an inside accomplice, allowing easy access from the outside. Yes, we had security cameras watching most, but not all of them.

    "Building security" is a myth anyway- - - - -those double opening hallway doors can be forced open with a quick push by a car bumper in about 5 seconds- - - - -the center latch jamb is held in with about 4 lag bolts or sheet metal screws.
    Jerry
    Don't confuse exits with entrances.....any exit door can can be secured against entrance without violating any laws or codes.
    For example...the last place I worked, we had 2500 or so occupants...the place had 3 controlled entry points with man-traps and turnstiles and 50 exits. Every exit door was alarmed so the pebble, stick, or book thing didn't work....if the door was opened or propped, an audible alarm sounded and the security control center was notified electronically.

    The idea of using a car bumper to push open doors goes out the window if you have bollards in place to prevent vehicles from getting close to the building in the first place.

    Really Jerry....you can absolutely secure a building.....all it takes is a desire to do so, someone who knows what they are doing to do the planning (to include the ability to think like a bad guy) and lots of money....all that being said...no security measure is fool proof...the goal is making the building a tough nut to crack...


    Edited to add: Never heard of evacuating a building for an approaching tornado.....normally the practice is to herd the occupants into designated shelter areas....
    Last edited by Jayhawker; 02-19-2018 at 06:32 AM.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

  17. #167
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Since when did any school system you've ever seen have "lots of money"? When teachers in our system were begging for a cost of living raise, the mayor of Nashville was putting a kink in the city budget and ruing its credit rating by chasing professional sports teams and building them fancy facilities at taxpayers' expense. He managed to snag a hockey franchise and an NFL team- - - - -and we got a 2% raise- - - -spread out over 3 years. I'll bet both of those sports arenas had better security than the 300-odd school buildings in the district. Now the same idiot who did that is talking about running for governor- - - -let's hope the dummycraps can't steal or manufacture enough votes to make that happen!
    Jerry
    Last edited by Teach; 02-19-2018 at 04:30 AM.
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  18. #168
    Senior Member Diver43's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    I dont know how, but somehow those in the know, need to be recognized and the word of needed changes to protect the kids at school.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

  19. #169

    Re: Active School Shooting

    I would advise everyone to call or write their congressman and tell them to vote against any and all gun control bills and tell your pals to do likewise.

  20. #170
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    I've heard it all from they can buy a Bushmaster AR 15 in FLA at 18, but not a Busch beer until they are 21..............

    I'm heartbroken over this horrific act as everyone else. Where I/we differ is how we approach a solution or something to maybe help prevent it from happening again. There is no easy solution.

    Emotions are running high as are knee jerk reactions. Usual lies are being propagated from how many "School Shootings" have happened already this year to blaming the AR 15s and hi-cap magazines. One newspaper had a headline saying the NRA trained the killer......not true... they do support JROTC.

    The gun grabbing 'Brady Bunch' and politicians are at it again even before the dead are buried. The students calling for marches are being exploited and fed the usual disinformation even though they mean well.

    I don't have an answer that would please everyone or prevent any of this stuff from happening again and at the same time not step on our constitutional rights.

    It's gonna take a lot of measures from honestly dealing with mental health and following up on reports of individuals making threats, but how do they do that fairly? An anti-gun coworker, neighbor or family member making a phone call saying a gun owner might be a problem.........then what, swoop in and take all of the accused guns and ammo without due process? Good luck in fighting that while you are left disarmed with you thumb up yer arse for months or years trying to clear your name.

    AR 15s are not 'Hunting Rifles" in the traditional sense even though many are used as such and for many types of shooting sports. Many AR 15s are chambered in more potent calibers which are used for hunting. What does sporting purposes have to do with the 2A as intended by our forefathers except a false argument bandied about by the antis.

    Gonna be a lot of "Zumbo Moments" from those who should know better along with the usual barrage of gun grabbing schemes. So put on yer flak vests.
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  21. #171

    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chief View Post

    AR 15s are not 'Hunting Rifles" in the traditional sense even though many are used as such and for many types of shooting sports.
    Neither were the Krags, Springfields, Mausers, etc... that veterans returned home from war and then kept for hunting and shooting. The AR is no different. It's what our veterans used in service, and are familiar with.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
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  22. #172
    Senior Member Big Chief's Avatar
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    Re: Active School Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by bullsi1911 View Post
    Neither were the Krags, Springfields, Mausers, etc... that veterans returned home from war and then kept for hunting and shooting. The AR is no different. It's what our veterans used in service, and are familiar with.
    Well M-16s/M-4s are different, one thing is service members can't bring them home and keep them , but they can buy a semi-auto copy of what they carried in the military and have familiarity with.

    No more than they could keep a Thompson SMG or Grease Gun. Times, weapons and laws have changed.

    Maybe that's part of the problem some folks have with ARs/AK copies..........they are too much like what they see on war footage/movies on everything from Vietnam to the desert.... except for a few internal parts.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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