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Thread: B.A.T.F

  1. #1
    Senior Member beartracker's Avatar
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    B.A.T.F

    The B.A.T.F.
    Last edited by beartracker; 06-14-2012 at 02:29 PM.

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    Senior Member robert38-55's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Thanks beartracker, that some good information ya got there!!!!!!!!!!!
    "It is what it is"

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    Senior Member Make_My_Day's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Warrant? We got no warrant?....We don't have to show you any stinkin' warrant!!!
    These shoulder-mounted copulatory organs are at it again.
    The Democrat Party reminds me of a horde of dung beetles scavenging
    through a load of animal droppings looking for food and shelter.

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    Senior Member robert38-55's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Make_My_Day View Post
    Warrant? We got no warrant?....We don't have to show you any stinkin' warrant!!!
    Not anymore they don't have to have a warrant, no knock raid is what they used to call it. So much for the constitutional rights!!!!!!!!!!! Compliments of Eric Holder US attorney General.
    "It is what it is"

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    Senior Member BigDanS's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Rights? Rights are God given, and since this admin doesn't believe in God, well, you have no rights. We get what they allow us to have.

    "It takes a Carter to get a Reagan..."

    Romney is not Reagan, but he can't be worse than Obama's admin.

    D
    I'm an east block weapons kinda guy... AK's SKS, Makarov's Tokarevs ... and American guns too.
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings?

  6. #6
    Senior Member DoctorWho's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    This has been snowballing since 1968......

    O is a clone of Ted Kennedy BTW.......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

  7. #7
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Worse yet bear...the BATFE is a tax agency, and their agents are tax agents....why are they kicking down doors? For that matter, why are those tax agents armed?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

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    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Does no one posting on this thread have a C&R or other ffl? When you accept the ffl you grant the BATF the right to audit your "bound book" at any time. Refusing them would be a big no-no and a surefire way to get your license revoked. Luckily its pretty darn rare for a C&R holder.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho

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    Senior Member alphasigmookie's Avatar
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    Ok reread the original article. Inspecting and auditing I know they can do no issues, copying and keeping records just for the sake of it is another thing.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho

  10. #10
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Audit, yes. Copy, no! There have been numerous incidents of ATF agents getting themselves in hot water for trying to remove a bound book from a dealer's premises and copy it. By law, the only time the information in a bound book, or the form 4473 a customer fills out can be taken into possession by the ATF is if a dealer goes out of business!
    Jerry
    Last edited by Wambli Ska; 04-30-2012 at 12:34 PM.
    Caedit eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
    Arnaud Amalric 1209 AD

  11. #11
    Senior Member JasonMPD's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    This is disturbing on many levels.

    It never ceases to amaze me how the government continuously focuses on the wrong damn problems as a path to a "solution." Leftist lobby groups all but control this country and would see every free American bound by the ligatures of Government control. There is no moral compass guiding these matters; it is plain and simple the convoluted tyrannical thought-process of the Liberal minded zealot whose ultimate goal is the quashing of all that people hold dear.

    There is no live-and-let-live ideology anymore. They see what we have; they see we love it and they want to destroy it. Controlling the fabric of this Nation is their one and only goal. They do not do it for better or the common good. They'd have us all timid little creatures begging daddy for a little milk money while what little we are given is taxed at a higher rate than one could afford. Look at it now: I have to work for 60-dollars so I can afford to spend 50.

    They'd have us bow down and acquiesce to the will of other nations--allow them to walk on us for the sake of a dollar or two. But this cannot come to fruition until they've effectively disarmed and/or cataloged the gun-owning public, for one. Gun buy-backs, weapons bans--worse--you name it. The NFA, Brady, it all will come to the culmination of decades of attempts by radicals to eliminate our way of life for no other reason than to do it.

    The SCOTUS is not on our side, either. A few summers ago, the SCOTUS voted only 5 to 4 that the Second Amendment applied to common citizens of the US. That means 4 of those senile lunatics would have us disarmed and feeble at the drop of a hat.

    Buy 'em up now and enjoy it.

    -Jason
    Last edited by JasonMPD; 04-30-2012 at 05:57 AM.
    "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan on the economic philosophy of big government.

  12. #12
    Senior Member robert38-55's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post
    Worse yet bear...the BATFE is a tax agency, and their agents are tax agents....why are they kicking down doors? For that matter, why are those tax agents armed?
    I got to agree with ya Jay.... One of my favorite quotes is: "Taxation without Representation" I have convienced myself that all government agencies are some sort of Tax collecting organizations.
    "It is what it is"

  13. #13
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    The field folks at the ATF I have dealt with have been curteous and helpful. Their agency is just a tool of whoever is in charge. Remebember itwas ATF guys that ble the wistle on Fast and Furious.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

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    Senior Member CaliFFL's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    The field folks at the ATF I have dealt with have been curteous and helpful. Their agency is just a tool of whoever is in charge. Remebember itwas ATF guys that ble the wistle on Fast and Furious.

    It was only a couple ATF guys that blew the whistle on F&F. Two good apples doesn't cleanse the barrel. The field agents coined the term "Always Think Forfeiture".

    This is the same agency that raised an ATF flag while burning the Branch Davidian compound. That's an image I will NEVER forget.
    Last edited by CaliFFL; 04-30-2012 at 04:50 PM.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand

  15. #15
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliFFL View Post
    It was only a couple ATF guys that blew the whistle on F&F. Two good apples doesn't cleanse the barrel. The field agents coined the term "Always Think Forfeiture".

    This is the same agency that raised an ATF flag while burning the Branch Davidian compound. That's an image I will NEVER forget.
    And who was in charge during the Branch Davidian fiasco?
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

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    Senior Member jbp-ohio's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    And who was in charge during the Branch Davidian fiasco?
    Now I can never open this thread again for fear someone may put her picture up......... I do not enjoy washing my eyes with bleach.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Ok reread the original article. Inspecting and auditing I know they can do no issues, copying and keeping records just for the sake of it is another thing.
    So glad you could join us Alph! Get with the program. Your hero's are burning the Constitution and the lawful Statutes made by the Congress of the United States. What they are doing is what all you libs claim Bush and his bunch were doing. But Bush would never condone something like this. This takes a real "Aspiring Dictator."
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  18. #18
    Senior Member CaliFFL's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    And who was in charge during the Branch Davidian fiasco?

    Who was in charge doesn't matter. The (jack) boots on the ground are the ones that violate, burn, and murder.

    "I was just following orders" does not fly.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand

  19. #19
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliFFL View Post
    Who was in charge doesn't matter. The (jack) boots on the ground are the ones that violate, burn, and murder.

    "I was just following orders" does not fly.
    Of course not. Now if it had happened under some Republican's watch I'm sure the answer would have changed... Again all Government agencies are only tools of the ruling party.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  20. #20
    Senior Member snake284's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by beartracker View Post
    It does not matter if they are under republican or democrat administrations, I have not liked nor do I like the attitudes, actions or the way in which the ATF is a loose cannon.
    Normally I would say under a Republican administration, things like that are less likely to happen. But where the IRS and the BATFE are concerned, it doesn't make a lot of difference because both of these departments have been given so much leeway to do what they want that they don't ask permission. They just do it. However, they are probably worse under an anti Second Amendment administration.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

  21. #21
    Senior Member CaliFFL's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambli Ska View Post
    Of course not. Now if it had happened under some Republican's watch I'm sure the answer would have changed...

    No, I'd still want the trigger men tried for arson and murder. This notion that the person that gave the order is the only one held accountable is BS. Only villains blindly follow the orders of villians. Men like Lon Horiuchi didn't just shoot unarmed women because Reno said so.

    Where is that republican claim for personal responsibility?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand

  22. #22
    Senior Member wildgene's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by beartracker View Post
    It does not matter if they are under republican or democrat administrations, I have not liked nor do I like the attitudes, actions or the way in which the ATF, AG, IRS, EPA, USF&WS are loose cannons.
    ...the Fed "regulatory" agencies are run amok, devising "regulations" that are more insidious than anything the crooks in Congress can get away w/, more often than not w/ politically motivated reasons & as justification of their continued existence & budgets...

  23. #23
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    Audit, yes. Copy, no! There have been numerous incidents of ATF agents getting themselves in hot water for trying to remove a bound book from a dealer's premises and copy it. By law, the only time the information in a bound book, or the form 4473 a customer fills out can be taken into possession by the ATF is if a dealer goes out of business!
    Jerry
    They have also been known to show up at gun shops with copy machines so they can get around the "removal of bound book from premesis" issue as well. This is not new they have been trying to get away with this for a long time. When a dealer goes out of business he has to send in his book to the ATF I am pretty sure they do not shred that info for him :)
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar

  24. #24
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    I knew a couple or three ATF agents and a few invited LE that went to the 'Good Old Boys Roundup' in Polk County, TN in the Ocoee area. I'll post a couple of links and let you make up your own minds.

    http://www.boogieonline.com/revoluti...ummercamp.html

    http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9603/exec.htm

    http://articles.latimes.com/1995-07-...8_1_atf-agents
    A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep.

  25. #25

    Re: B.A.T.F

    Quote Originally Posted by alphasigmookie View Post
    Does no one posting on this thread have a C&R or other ffl? When you accept the ffl you grant the BATF the right to audit your "bound book" at any time. Refusing them would be a big no-no and a surefire way to get your license revoked. Luckily its pretty darn rare for a C&R holder.
    I have a C&R FFL 03, and from my understanding that is not exactly how it works for a C&R FFL holder. For 03 FFLs the BATFE agents must arrange with the licensee ahead of time an appointment to inspect the bound book and the licensee can choose to have their bound book audited at the location on the license or at the nearest BATFE field office. I believe such audits are limited to once per year unless BATFE has pretty clear cut reasons for wanting to see it to conduct a trace (has to be part of an investigation, etc). For a type 01 FFL, it is my understanding that BATFE can show up at the licensee's location any time they want during regular business hours and demand to view the books, but even then I think there is a limit to the frequency they can do full fledged audits unless they have specific cause.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
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    Re: B.A.T.F

    Fred Thompson led the probe into the Good Ole Boys' Roundup, and he was making some real progress. Then he abruptly decided not to run for reelection. I'm reasonably sure his daughter's death from a drug OD might not have been an accident- - - - -maybe a "back off" message from ATF? These guys have been loose cannons ever since they were "Volstead Act" enforcers during prohibition. They were corrupt then, either taking bribes to ignore some operations, or stealing the booze and selling it to their favorite merchandisers. J. Edgar Hoover was instrumental in getting ATF organized so the FBI wouldn't have to absorb them when their oroginal purpose went away.
    Jerry
    Caedit eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
    Arnaud Amalric 1209 AD

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