Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 71

Thread: Rifle info

  1. #31
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Quote Originally Posted by Teach View Post
    Sorry, folks- - - -something about the format of the pics he sent me by email that won't gee-haw with my picture host. Anybody else want to try? It's a very interesting-looking single shot rifle that breaks down like a shotgun, obviously a very high-quality custom rig.
    Jerry
    Send them to me, I can probably convert them to something Forum friendly.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  2. #32
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dellrose TN
    Posts
    9,748

    Re: Rifle info

    On the way- - - -to both email addresses I have for you!
    Jerry
    Support your local police department
    Donate ammo!

  3. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,487

    Re: Rifle info

    Does it look like a Schutzen rifle?
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06

  4. #34
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    I'm just nice to the devel dogs I'm armor, Third herd then to 9th division.

    I cant even get this thing to take my profile pic, what a bummer
    Last edited by wingsandstrings; 07-18-2012 at 12:17 AM.

  5. #35
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Your proof marks are as follows:
    Express Rifle (looks like an F because it was overstruck by the Crown U underneath it)


    Proof on rifled “Gezogen” barrel

    Blackpowder proof

    The 7.6 m/m is the bore size
    The 3.12 means March 1912 Manufacture
    I have no clue what the 550 means, a BP load perhaps?... Maybe someone else knows.



    The rest of the pictures, VERY NICE GUN!!!
    GEDC0206-1.jpg


    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  6. #36

    Re: Rifle info

    Not that I know anything about this...but I personally suspect that 550 might be a patent number of some kind....

    If not that, something to do with its proofing test. Perhaps like an inspector number.

    I'd figure that the germans would be more methodical and have an entire reference book on powderloads for their rifle, rather than doing something so crude as making it a proof stamp.
    Last edited by steffen19k; 07-18-2012 at 12:18 AM.
    Here is everything I know about war: Someone wins, Someone loses, and nothing is ever the same again.

  7. #37
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    Thanks for the info and for getting the pic's to post. OH and thanks for the flowers, I like it , would like it shoot it at least once, and find out if the story I was told is true so I might even find the true owner or builder. I can't leave well enough alone

  8. #38
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    I have gone thru Cartriges of the world three times and can't find a 7.6 mm guess I'll have to buy some putty to mike out the chamber and try to match the cast to a round. Oh well something else to do in my SPARE TIME ;)

  9. #39
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Quote Originally Posted by wingsandstrings View Post
    Thanks for the info and for getting the pic's to post. OH and thanks for the flowers, I like it , would like it shoot it at least once, and find out if the story I was told is true so I might even find the true owner or builder. I can't leave well enough alone
    A chamber cast is an easy way to figure out what it's chambered it and slugging the barrel will tell you real bore diameter and twist rate so you can have a good idea what you are dealing with as far as projectile weight. Plenty of bullets in the 7.6mm class and you might be able to make some cases out of something else if it's some exotic round. Considering the action it's probably a rimmed cartridge of some sort and a little research on what was popular in Germany in the early 1900 should finally tell you what t is.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  10. #40
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    7.6 mm is a .30 caliber. You might be surprised and it might be chambered for something like a 30-40 Krag. It could potentntially even be a 30-06 (was that popular in Germany at the begining of the 20th century?) that was not proofed for Nitro since the Germans didn't start doing that until 1912 and your rifle might have been built before it became the norm to proof for Nitro.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  11. #41

    Re: Rifle info

    Nitro...glycerine???
    Here is everything I know about war: Someone wins, Someone loses, and nothing is ever the same again.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dellrose TN
    Posts
    9,748

    Re: Rifle info

    An acceptable chamber casting for determining the basic dimensions can be done with parrafin- - -candle wax or jelly-sealing wax for instance. For something suitable to be used as a pattern for making a reloading die set, use CerroSafe, available from places like Brownell's of Midway USA. Cerrosafe melts at something like 180 degrees F. and shrinks slightly 30 minutes after being poured into the chamber, then "grows" back to full size in another 30 minutes.

    Plug the barrel bore with a piece of patch material or a rolled-up piece of tissue, pour the chamber full, and wait. After 30 minutes, tap the plug out of the chamber and do some measuring. I'll agree that you've most likely got a rimmed version of some type of .30 caliber (7.62 MM) cartridge. There were several of them made around the turn of the 20th. Century and some are still available from places like Old Western Scrounger. Have fun!
    Jerry
    Support your local police department
    Donate ammo!

  13. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,487

    Re: Rifle info

    It looks more modern than a turn of the Century rifle to me...no sights, for example. At least none evident, although it's hard to tell from the pictures. Made for a scope, and not (I don't think) a claw mount. It's a super nice rifle, I imagine the 5xx is serial number.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06

  14. #44
    Senior Member Teach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dellrose TN
    Posts
    9,748

    Re: Rifle info

    Try reading the whole thread, Gene- - - - -the scope was added a long time after the rifle was produced.
    Jerry
    Support your local police department
    Donate ammo!

  15. #45
    Moderator Jayhawker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Smoky Valley, Kansas
    Posts
    8,273

    Re: Rifle info

    Any thoughts about this being a Guild Gun?

    At any rate...very nice rifle. Strikes me as a higher end hunting rifle...just what some German hunter would prefer...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

  16. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,612

    Re: Rifle info

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure maker's names were never put on Guild pieces. These pieces were built by those in training, and until accepted as a "master builder" by the Guild involved, were not allowed to identify an arm with a name.

  17. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,612

    Re: Rifle info

    Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't I see a number 186?? heavily stamped below the 550? Was this mentioned and I just didn't catch it? If I'm right then there is the serial number most probably.

    In my opinion:....This is a somewhat "high-end" piece probably made in the late 1800's very early 1900's intended for use on wild boar which was a Gentleman's Sport in Deutschland at the time. One-shot only on a bayed up boar proved manhood. The engraving speaks well of a high-end piece, and is very similar to the 2-3 pieces that I have especially my little 16ga SXS that was Hermann Goering's WIFE's personal shotgun . The stock is so typically Deutsch with the cheekpiece shape alone would go a long way in establishing an origion....which, by the way, may well be Austria. Same characteristics overlap. I find it interesting that nothing-at least in the photos- suggest Krupp Stahl which was premium and highly desirable with arms makers at that time in Germany and Austria. Just my thoughts....

  18. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,487

    Re: Rifle info

    Maker's names were not on "guild" rifles. That's the purpose of a guild built rifle. Once the maker passed the guild test, he could put his name on the rifle.

    This is not a guild rifle as it has a name. germanguns.com will give you the answer.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06

  19. #49
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    WOW you guys are good! Sr#18607 or what could be a sr# I didn't think they used them that far back. From an outside source (computer and gun nut friend) acording to him the engraving and the 18 as first two in the SR# "He say's points him to think Krieghoff. I e-mailed them with some of your notes and his and asked if they could help, I'll let you know what they say. The towns don't match but he is right a lot of engraving looks close but just might be a popular pattern of the time. He also put it at between WWI & II. Will try the wax cast tomorrow if I can, will keep you posted and will keep looking for what you all come up with

  20. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,612

    Re: Rifle info

    Your friend may be correct about the time period being between the Wars. I've kinda had that feeling too, but the black powder proof mark may indicate otherwise I think.

    The engraving.....be a little careful about tying this to certain or perticular makers. It may be possible, but you better be darn good at it. What I see on your piece is so similar to the engraving on a J.P.Sauer und Sohn SXS made in about 1893 in Suhl that it takes close looking to see differences. I pulled out my copy of Steinschloss-Jagerbuchsen and took a look at some of the engraving on 18th century jagers that was also very close to what your piece shows. I'm sure that individual makers developed certain characteristics in their work as identifying characteristics, common sence would say so.

    GeneL offers very good advice in suggesting you contact germanguns.com. Some of the members there probably know more about certain manufacturers than the manufacturer does! Much of Germany's arms making was traditionally in a small area of the country around Suhl. This fell into the Soviet Sector after WWII, and a lot of records were destroyed by the arms makers on purpose to prevent the Russians from gaining this intelligence. Sauer is a good example....burned all records all the way back to 1757 to keep this info out of Ivan's hands!

  21. #51
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Folks we don't really have to wonder much. The proof marks are definitely German, the date of manufacture is definitely March 1912 (those proof marks are not in question) and the fact that it is proofed to Black powder is just because Germay did not start proffing guns to Nitro (smokeless powder) until 1912 so this rifle was probably manufactured early enough in the year that the Nitro proof mark was not even available. Does not nessesarily mean it's a black powder gun. Smokeless powder guns from before 1912 were stamped with the same BP stamp because it was the only one available at the time that signified a "finished" gun. The only proofmark I can't place is the 500.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  22. #52
    Senior Member tennmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under a log
    Posts
    10,834

    Re: Rifle info

    The 550 number could be the proof pressure to which the barrel was tested.
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

  23. #53
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,612

    Re: Rifle info

    Thanks for posting this info, Wambli! German arms fascinate the heck out of me, and I want to learn all that I can so Thanks!

  24. #54
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrunner View Post
    Thanks for posting this info, Wambli! German arms fascinate the heck out of me, and I want to learn all that I can so Thanks!
    My pleasure! Here is a good site that shows German and other European proofmarks with dates etc.

    http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  25. #55
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    Well I'm Back, and you all are going to love this stuff. With out boreing all of you with all of the specks I came up with a round of (Drum roll please) it's a 5.6X35Rmm Vierling. So I go from the data sheet for Euro Sporting cartridges to the discription page, I'm reeding, 22 winchester centerfire picked up by the Euro a year or two later, inspired the 22 Hornet, originally black powder, germans adapted it to smokeless and stepped up the velocity yada yada yada I look at the pic below the discription and what do I see but my rifle, almost to the Tee. So I'm gonna e-mail frank Barnes if possible and see what he can tell me. This gun is gonna drive me to drink, and make me pay for the gas. Again I will ceep you all posted.

  26. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,487

    Re: Rifle info

    So that means the 7.6 is actually 5.6? A .22 Hornet is outstanding! The holes in the trap look bigger than that, but I have no reference to guage.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06

  27. #57
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    So much about this gun has me baffled it isn't funny, Thats why I came to you all.

  28. #58
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Quote Originally Posted by wingsandstrings View Post
    Well I'm Back, and you all are going to love this stuff. With out boreing all of you with all of the specks I came up with a round of (Drum roll please) it's a 5.6X35Rmm Vierling. So I go from the data sheet for Euro Sporting cartridges to the discription page, I'm reeding, 22 winchester centerfire picked up by the Euro a year or two later, inspired the 22 Hornet, originally black powder, germans adapted it to smokeless and stepped up the velocity yada yada yada I look at the pic below the discription and what do I see but my rifle, almost to the Tee. So I'm gonna e-mail frank Barnes if possible and see what he can tell me. This gun is gonna drive me to drink, and make me pay for the gas. Again I will ceep you all posted.
    Just because the rifle looks to be the same it does not mean the chambering is the same. Plese ba careful and slug the bore and do a chamber cast. That proof mark of 7.6 is very clear. I would be very surprised if it's chambered in anything else.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

  29. #59
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Hillsboro, Ohio
    Posts
    26

    Re: Rifle info

    I did a cast, miked it out. Case length,case base dia. w/in .002 of same neck dia. w/in .001 of same,bore .222 same, used wax insted of recomended putty and should have heated the chamber before pouring wax but I hate te add heat to such an old gun or any gun for that matter "IF I DON"T HAVE TO TO AFFECT A PROPER REPAIR". I'm not saying it couldn't be .22 Hornet (5.6X36 Rmm) but age would count the Hornet out. I would be tempted to fire 22 hornet through it but am concerned about chamber presure. guess I flip a coin unless someone screams "DON"T DO IT!!!!!"

    Posted it on Germanguns.com I will update any info from there to here to keep Y'all up on it.
    Last edited by wingsandstrings; 07-19-2012 at 07:14 PM.

  30. #60
    Moderator Wambli Ska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Working on my tan!
    Posts
    10,756

    Re: Rifle info

    Quote Originally Posted by wingsandstrings View Post
    I did a cast, miked it out. Case length,case base dia. w/in .002 of same neck dia. w/in .001 of same,bore .222 same, used wax insted of recomended putty and should have heated the chamber before pouring wax but I hate te add heat to such an old gun or any gun for that matter "IF I DON"T HAVE TO TO AFFECT A PROPER REPAIR". I'm not saying it couldn't be .22 Hornet (5.6X36 Rmm) but age would count the Hornet out. I would be tempted to fire 22 hornet through it but am concerned about chamber presure. guess I flip a coin unless someone screams "DON"T DO IT!!!!!"

    Posted it on Germanguns.com I will update any info from there to here to keep Y'all up on it.
    Wow that's really interesting. I wonder if at some point the gun barrel was "sleeved" for a more modern cartridge? Maybe by the guy who added the scope mounts?
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •