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The EPA is out of control!

SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior MemberPosts: 5,462 Senior Member
Now water is a pollutant and people might loose land over it! My head hurts!

Virginia takes EPA to court claiming water regulation plan is illegal land takeover, http://fxn.ws/12bUz22 - Sent via the FOX News Android App.
Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    It's not the water. It's what's in the water. See Fairfax County's web blurb on the suit:
    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/news/2012/updates/fairfax-sues-epa-to-challenge-stormwater-rule.htm

    The suit was filed today in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Alexandria Division. It challenges the EPA’s recently established rule governing Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) limits for Accotink Creek. The county believes the proposed TMDL limits on stormwater flow provide no reasonable assurance that targets can be attained or that they will correct the underlying problem. Left unchallenged, EPA’s new stormwater rule will require Fairfax County to sharply and substantially reduce all stormwater runoff across the Accotink Creek watershed.

    The above is the gist of what the EPA wants to do: they're trying to limit the amount of stuff washed in with the stormwater (clays, sands, oils, and pollutants associated with the stormwater runoff) that's getting into the creek. Also, higher flows from stormwaters can negatively degrade the creek by causing flooding with higher erosion. The more an area is developed, the less it retains and the more prone area waters become due to higher flows coming into them. Asphalt and concrete don't make for good water retention.

    Fairfax County is claiming that the standards are unrealistic. I don't know if it's setting a lower standard than is naturally occurring (that's happened in FL where they tried to limit phosphate runoff into naturally phosphate rich rivers and fined the state for being out of compliance when the natural system exceeds the phosphate limits) or if the county doesn't want to or doesn't have the money to pay for mitigation measures.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Now water is a pollutant and people might loose land over it! My head hurts!

    Virginia takes EPA to court claiming water regulation plan is illegal land takeover, http://fxn.ws/12bUz22 - Sent via the FOX News Android App.

    Yea!!! For Virginia!!! Now the rest of the states need to follow suit. The EPA, Osha, and a few more government agencies have been out of control since the day they were founded. If you've ever worked in the Gas, Oil, or Chemical Industry you'd know how true Sir George's statement really is. It's insane!, but the public doesn't really understand how far off course they are. They are moving the country in the direction that the liberal agenda wants it to go. Don't get me started on Osha, that's a REAL circus.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    I agree that more development increases run off. But I think the storm sewer could be treeted before the run off is allowed back into nature. That's the way we handled it in the Chemical plant. But watch out taxpayers. Any solution to such a problem is going to be costly.

    But the only problem with treating the run off is that in flood conditions, when rain is way above average, such as during a hurricane, the system would be subject to being inundated with excessive flow, thus rendering the treatment facility useless for that time period. Of course, flood conditions would do the same with any system.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,453 Senior Member
    Well, Breamfisher, if runoff is a problem then every large city in the U.S. is violating the law, and has been for a long time. Storm water runs into drains that collect the water and dump it into the closest body of water. NYC, Chicago, San Diego, Miami, San Francisco, every large city. Reason the big cities aren't being picked on by the EPA is probably political; they're all hotbeds of voting DEMOCRATS.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    I'd wager there's some truth to that, Tennmike. A coworker is from VA, and he says the creek in question has lots of issues: high pollution (I don't know the sources) and lots of problems from homes being built on the floodplain after new rules went into effect with no stormwater mitigation. I really don't know why this county in particular is being over all others. And please note, I said it wasn't the runoff per se, but what's IN the runoff that the county's being fined for. I don't know if they have any settling ponds or the like in use or not. The high flows are ancillary to the problem. The fines are for violating the total maximum daily load (TMDL) standards. For those that don't know, TMDL is basically saying that you can only put X amount of particulates (dirt, sand, clay, etc.), x amount of phosphorus, pH has to be in a certain range, dissolved oxygen has to be in certain ranges, organic matter has limits, etc. The limits for the creek in question might or might not be realistic, I don't know.

    Incidentally, the county in question has a lot of Democrats on the county's board of commissioners. At least a majority.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    Yea!!! For Virginia!!! Now the rest of the states need to follow suit. The EPA, Osha, and a few more government agencies have been out of control since the day they were founded. If you've ever worked in the Gas, Oil, or Chemical Industry you'd know how true Sir George's statement really is. It's insane!, but the public doesn't really understand how far off course they are. They are moving the country in the direction that the liberal agenda wants it to go. Don't get me started on Osha, that's a REAL circus.

    OSHA needs to have a reality check. In patrol cars, the interior noise level from the sirens cannot exceed 85 dB. This means the exterior level is about 100 dB. This means surrounding motorists in these nice noise-cancelling cars have a harder time hearing the siren. Semi truck tires are about 110 dB at 70mph. With your windows rolled up in a modern car, how loud is it? Not very.

    Gimme a break OSHA.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    OSHA needs to have a reality check. In patrol cars, the interior noise level from the sirens cannot exceed 85 dB. This means the exterior level is about 100 dB. This means surrounding motorists in these nice noise-cancelling cars have a harder time hearing the siren. Semi truck tires are about 110 dB at 70mph. With your windows rolled up in a modern car, how loud is it? Not very.

    Gimme a break OSHA.

    I had one dealing with OSHA, well several over the same incident over a period of 3 or 4 months back in 1991. Where I worked at Union Carbide was known to be the most potentially hazardous unit in the plant and maybe the corporation. Within Carbide and also around the world there had been several Ethylene Oxide stills blow up over the years. Everytime the investigation team would come to some conclusion as to why that was thought to be obvious. Well, on March 11-12, 1991 at 1:18 A.M. our Oxide Redistillation Still had an internal decomposition of the Oxide and blew it to smitherines because there was a flame front going up the column at approximately 1200 FPS. It blew parts of that column which was 122 feet tall and 8 feet in diameter, as big as a car over a quarter of a mile away and wrecked control rooms 300-400 yards from the blast center. It blew the east wall of our control room in, but miraculously no one was hurt seriously inside our control room. One unlucky guy, who was working overtime in another unit, not by choice, across the street from that column in a polyethylene bagging building was killed when a wall blew in on him.

    Now, what happened? It took our corporation's investigation team, the people that knew more about what could have happened, 6 months to come up with a cause. However the dingbat OSHA clown that headed their investigation team would come up with some BS on a daily basis. He was trying to come up with something that he could use to justify a fine for the company. Union Carbide (Nothing to do with labor unions) was eventually fined a few hundred thousand dollars but for something that never really happened. The corporation had learned that you couldn't fight OSHA whether they were right or wrong. Then when the mainstream media gets hold of it, it's really a lost cause and the company knew better than to fight it. What really happened and we found out what had been causing these explosions all along was a form of Iron Oxide (Yeah Rust, but not as we know it) was formed within the piping of all Oxide vessels. When a column would experience a low level in the reboiler tubes, causing the tubes to overheat, it would set off a reaction within the process. Anyway, this solved a lot of future problems for a lot of people, but to say that the OSHA clowns never had a clue is a big understatement.

    Our Emergency shut down systems on these columns open low pressure steam to the safety valve discharge headers to disperse any oxide that would get blown to the air in case a safety valve would open from an over pressure situation. This steam was set to open at a column pressure way below the pressure where the safety valve would actually lift. So if you experience pressure swings on colum startups getting all the nitrogen out of the system, it will open the steam. This is a regular occurance. The pressure would get to 65 PSI and the shut down logic would open the steam. Someone from another unit witnessed this steam opening to the safety valve header and mistakenly thought it was Oxide blowing to the air. This the OSHA Clown thought was happening and his complaint was we were starting up the column and it was blowing its safety valves, which would have been a good reason to halt the startup and take heat off the vessle until a reason was established for the safety valves lifting. So this is what OSHA went with.

    This clown would call me in for an interview or inquesition and heckel me asking me stuff like, "Were You aware, or DID you know, that the PSVs (Pressure relief valves-better known as safety valves) were relieving and did you stop to investigate why? Well how many times did I have to tell this idiot that I wasn't even there when this happened. I had left the plant at 6 PM because I had been out there on overtime all day helping start up the unit. This column isn't usually started up until 4 or 5 hours into the unit start up because you have to be making enough product to keep it on line and we had started up (Put on feed flows to reaction) at 4 PM that day. This is a unit you load up very slowly to prevent upset conditions and production of Ethylene Oxide comes up gradually over about 8 hours, depending on how aggressively it is being starteds up.

    Anyway, I would tell him what I thought and what I knew, but he always thought I and everyone was lying to him. He was a real idiot government worker. Anyway, he told me one day, he says, "What if I told you that the safety valves had been chattering for two hours before the explosion. Would you believe me? I said Hell NO! They were not chattering (Chattering would be a condition where they were lifting just enough to open and close rapidly). If an Oxide Safety Valve lifts, it usually will stay open until heat is taken off the reboiler. Something serious enough to open them is usually serious enough to keep them open for a good while. When heat is first added to the column after it's been down for maintenance and full of nitrogen, the pressure will spike up 3 or 4 pounds, enough to cause the ESS Logic to open the steam on the safety valves.

    OSHA, in my opinion, is not run by competent people. It is there to frighten companies into total compliance without regard for the facts. It pisses me off that my tax dollars go to a BS government department like this.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Government jobs of all sorts are filled by incompetent fools who can't make the cut out there in the real world. Ditto for public school administrators- - - - -failed teachers who can't hack it in the classroom, but they're adept at butt-kissing the next level of supervision!
    Jerry
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    The EPA has been living in an alternate reality for years. Here in Tucson, they declared the Santa Cruz river "navigable" and "recreational." Of course it is a dry river bed (basically a wash) that only has water in it during the monsoon season, or the ocassional drippings from a nearby waste treatment plant. When Phoenix was hit with a massive dust storm which virtually engulfed the whole metropolitan area, some blilliant luminary in the EPA tried to fine the city for excessive particulate air pollution.

    If you think it's bad now, wait until the 5000+ new regulations Obama is sitting on get "executive ordered" into law.
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