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Gun control laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey guys, I have been thinking about this a lot lately ever since the tragedy in CT. At first, I thought that the idea of any type of gun control law was just wrong and was 100% against it. However i have to admit that there are a few things that perhaps need to change.

There have been times at the range that I've seen people with guns that really shouldn't even be able to touch them. I remember a time when i was at a local gun store/indoor range and i see this kid (early 20's if that) standing there at the lane with an AK47(romanian WASR 10) and a very confused face. At first, I didn't pay to much attention to it and kept shooting my rifle. After a while, I couldn't take it anymore so i approach him and ask " Is there something wrong??" To my surprise, the kid responds "where do the bullets go?" I stopped for a moment not believing what i had just heard and replied " what do you mean?" where did you get this gun?" He said that he had just picked it up and that it was his first gun. I went ahead and proceeded to explain the controls of the gun and briefly went through all the safety rules. He finally loads the rifle and i kid you not, with his first shot he hits the target holding apparatus and resulted in a cease fire for several minutes until they were able to repair the lane.

This is why i'm starting to think that there should be some sort of gun control in effect so that firearms like that don't end up in the hands of people like him. I was thinking about it and came up with an idea. What if we were to implement a licensing system that has different levels or "endorsements" the same way people get a learners permit for a car and then have to get endorsements for different types of vehicles, i think we should do the same with firearms. My idea is as follows:

Someone interested in learning about guns would need a learners permit and is only allowed to shoot with someone who knows what they are doing. Once they show proficiency with the basics, they can take a test and get a general firearms licence which allows purchasing and using let say pistols and or shotguns. If they want to purchase lets say a semi auto rifle then they need to take a class and show proficiency and then they can purchase it and us it legally. and so on with different types of firearms. Maybe even another endorsement to be able to carry concealed. Perhaps the person should be able to show proficiency with the laws governing conceal carry as well as a good understanding on how to conceal and use such a weapon.

Another thing I was thinking was that maybe there should be a more comprehensive background check including not only criminal offenses but also whether or not the person has had any type of mental issues and or whether or not they are taking any drugs for it.

I agree that everyone should be able to own firearms but i think we need to change the way we go about doing so. Magazine restrictions and so called"Assault weapon Bans" are just **** in my opinion.

Am i wrong by thinking this way?. I have been a strong gun supporter and pay my NRA dues. But after seeing these horrible things happen and experiencing first hand how people that dont have a clue about firearms are allowed to get them, i think something has to change. What do you guys think???
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Replies

  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I'm not 100% certain for other states.....but in CO, if you want a license to hunt, you have to pass a certified Hunter's Safety Course unless you're old enough to be "grandfathered in" (born before 1 Jan 49). My course when I was 12 included a live-fire proofing segment with .22 rimfire rifles. I think at least the HSC should be madatory to buying any firearm......as it is the cheapest means of education. Otherwise, I totally agree. We're seeing enough people asking about what gun to get, and they don't know the first thing about them except one end goes boom with a shiny flash. People need to get educated on the realities of the tools.

    I could go out and buy the kit for an acetylene torch......do I know how to use one.....hell no! Would you trust being around me using one then? Hell no! Would you feel better if I had the proper training and knowledge on using one? Hell yes!
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    My filter is broken.....
    thats a stupid idea.

    Ouch.. Really? So you think its okay that someone who has never shot a gun before and doesn't have a clue about firearms is able to all of a sudden get an AR or AK?????
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    I'm not 100% certain for other states.....but in CO, if you want a license to hunt, you have to pass a certified Hunter's Safety Course unless you're old enough to be "grandfathered in" (born before 1 Jan 49). My course when I was 12 included a live-fire proofing segment with .22 rimfire rifles. I think at least the HSC should be madatory to buying any firearm......as it is the cheapest means of education. Otherwise, I totally agree. We're seeing enough people asking about what gun to get, and they don't know the first thing about them except one end goes boom with a shiny flash. People need to get educated on the realities of the tools.

    I could go out and buy the kit for an acetylene torch......do I know how to use one.....hell no! Would you trust being around me using one then? Hell no! Would you feel better if I had the proper training and knowledge on using one? Hell yes!

    Exactly my point brotha!!!!!:cool2:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,565 Senior Member
    Let me get this straight: you guys want to have permits for a right, and are using privileges (hunting and driving) as examples to justify these permits?

    With rights come responsibilities. Whether or not those who are exercising those rights accept those responsibilities is up to them. How many are truly informed for their voting (a right), when they enter into political discourse (another right) or when they worship (another right). Some of the posts on this forum should be proof that there are those who exercise the freedom without the attendant responsibility.

    One of the hazards of a truly free society is that occasionally we get folks who might not be prepared to exercise their rights exercising their rights. However, curtailing the liberty of those who are prepared is not the solution.

    Another thing to consider: who sets the standard?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    Let me get this straight: you guys want to have permits for a right, and are using privileges (hunting and driving) as examples to justify these permits?

    Yep. This is a right people. Permission should not be needed at all. I would have no objection if they taught this stuff in public schools like they teach civics and social studies, but to turn a right into a privilege is a dangerous thing. What next? A permit to speak or worship?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    Let me get this straight: you guys want to have permits for a right, and are using privileges (hunting and driving) as examples to justify these permits?

    With rights come responsibilities. Whether or not those who are exercising those rights accept those responsibilities is up to them. How many are truly informed for their voting (a right), when they enter into political discourse (another right) or when they worship (another right). Some of the posts on this forum should be proof that there are those who exercise the freedom without the attendant responsibility.

    One of the hazards of a truly free society is that occasionally we get folks who might not be prepared to exercise their rights exercising their rights. However, curtailing the liberty of those who are prepared is not the solution.

    Another thing to consider: who sets the standard?


    I respect your opinion but i think we are talking apples and oranges here. I agree that everyone has the right to own firearms but we have seen that expecting people to be responsible has not worked very well. My idea is not to take the right away from people but to make sure that if you own a firearm that you know how to use it and also know the responsibilities of ownership. Just like a car. If the politicians get their way we will end up with an Assault weapons ban and a magazine capacity regulation which is ridiculous. i mean, if you go through the right channels you can still own anything you want. As far as who sets the standards well, that is something that needs to be worked out. im not saying that this is a fool proof idea but i think its a step in the right direction.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    Ouch.. Really? So you think its okay that someone who has never shot a gun before and doesn't have a clue about firearms is able to all of a sudden get an AR or AK?????

    So what's so special about an AR15 or an AK47? Please tell me how any one of these guns is any more dangerous than any other gun out there?
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,565 Senior Member
    A car is not a right. It's a privilege. Please, tell me of another right that you need training to exercise. BTW, if someone doesn't pass the course (which in some jurisdictions they can make so hard on one can pass) they are denied that right. I suggest you learn about some of the early methods that were used to deprive blacks of the right to vote. A civics test was one method. They had the right, they just had to prove they were "responsible" enough to vote.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Let me get this straight: you guys want to have permits for a right, and are using privileges (hunting and driving) as examples to justify these permits?

    Do we not accept CHP? This is accepting a permit for a right, yes?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,332 Senior Member
    [QUOTE=glockman0422;185706Just like a car. [/QUOTE]

    Driving is a privilege not a right....that's why it regulated the way it is.....and yet with all the licensing, mandated training, etc,,, every day idiots get behind the wheel and kill people....poor comparison.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    A car is not a right. It's a privilege.
    No, a car is not a right but you do have a right to own a car. You can own all you want and drive them all the time without permission from the government-- if you are on private property. The privilege is being allowed to drive that car on public roads.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I was about to start a new thread but I think this one will do fine (despite glockman's sticking exclamation key -- haha). No, seriously, I do want to discuss some points in light of this recent shooting and how things may soon proceed in Congress.

    About me, first: I've had guns since my .22LR birthday gift, age 9. Never been much of a hunter and I'm mostly about handguns. However this isn't a factor, as I've had a concealed permit since they were first issued in Texas and I've carried mostly .45s or other large caliber handguns for years.

    Yes, I KNOW "what part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" but we also know that the absolute right to own firearms has indeed been infringed at times and found constitutional, such as short-barrel rifles or shotguns, full auto weapons, etc. ALL our rights from the Bill of Rights (one of the greatest single acts of freedom ever) have been tweaked over the years. As was said, freedom of speech does not give one the right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. We've got freedom of speech but we can't slander, freedom of print but we can't libel, and other things.

    It's a balance, a delicate one, and it shifts from individual rights vs. group liberties. And believe me, I'm a very strong proponent of 2A rights, but I also think that there may be some places where these might be reasonably restricted. I'm gonna ask some serious questions here, and please don't assume I'm trying to pick a fight -- I'm giving deep thought to these things and want to bring up some points...

    1- what's called "assault weapons" are actually "repeating semiauto rifles". So let's talk about the actual weapon. I don't have an AR and simply haven't wanted one enough to buy one. Aside from a repeating rifle that fires, say, 3-5 rounds (small magazine or internal capacity), what does a private citizen have use of one (aside from the fun of shooting a 30-round mag)?

    If you're hunting, at which time would you need more shots? As I said, I've never been much of a hunter so I freely admit to not knowing -- are there hunting instances where you'd need more than a few shots immediately --- before reloading?

    The other use would, of course, be self defense. And civilian, not LEO, please, does anyone know of an instance where a pure-dee private citizen had need to use a large capacity magazine for self defense (here, in the USA)? Not that the armed citizen grabbed his AR and used it to shoot an invader, that I realize can occur. My question is, when did the added rounds get used? Because all the self defense shootings I've read about involved only a few shots. So I'm asking, what instances have you read about where a larger cap magazine was needed?

    These questions go to the point of what might be coming: an "assault weapon" ban. And I'm asking, aside from the "not be infringed" argument, and the sheer fun of shooting high cap mags, what actual "value" does the private citizen get from owning an AR?

    Now I'm NOT saying "ban them" but perhaps there might be restrictions placed on ownership, where the prospective owner needs to take a quick class in their use? After all, we've become used to concealed carry licenses and classes, so maybe an AR class? I dunno -- I'm just asking.

    And yes, I know that gun ownership is a constitutional right and therefore cannot be compared precisely with the privilege of driving a car, but in fact we DO have restrictions on gun ownership, sale, use, etc.

    With that in mind, are there reasonable added restrictions that might be amenable to a pro-gun citizenry?

    Consider for example banning general ownership of hi-cap semiauto rifles. Aside from the fun of shooting hi-cap at the range, are there genuine hunting or self defense issues that might require hi-cap rifles (or pistols for that matter)?

    Understand, I'm trying to approach this issue with an open mind, without any preferences on my part because I'm a lifetime gun owner and longtime 2A/NRA supporter.

    And yes, again, I KNOW "don't give an inch" and generally believe that. But I also need to face reality here, and that there is going to be an immense outcry about some actions to take regarding this terrible shooting. I'm just tossing around ideas and see what you think.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,332 Senior Member
    ....and yet way back in the early '50s, my Father observed "Everybody has a right to own a gun, but there are a whole bunch of folks out there that have no business doing so"
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    The kid at the range was failed by his LGS or whoever it was that sold him the rifle. Jim Crow laws for gun ownership are as bad an idea as the original Jim Crow laws. The Bill of Rights is there to define those rights that cannot be taken away by any regime or tin pot potentate.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,565 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    No, a car is not a right but you do have a right to own a car. You can own all you want and drive them all the time without permission from the government-- if you are on private property. The privilege is being allowed to drive that car on public roads.
    My bad. As you pointed out, it's driving that's the privilege on public roads.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    1- what's called "assault weapons" are actually "repeating semiauto rifles". So let's talk about the actual weapon. I don't have an AR and simply haven't wanted one enough to buy one. Aside from a repeating rifle that fires, say, 3-5 rounds (small magazine or internal capacity), what does a private citizen have use of one (aside from the fun of shooting a 30-round mag)?

    If you're hunting, at which time would you need more shots? As I said, I've never been much of a hunter so I freely admit to not knowing -- are there hunting instances where you'd need more than a few shots immediately --- before reloading?

    The other use would, of course, be self defense. And civilian, not LEO, please, does anyone know of an instance where a pure-dee private citizen had need to use a large capacity magazine for self defense (here, in the USA)? Not that the armed citizen grabbed his AR and used it to shoot an invader, that I realize can occur. My question is, when did the added rounds get used? Because all the self defense shootings I've read about involved only a few shots. So I'm asking, what instances have you read about where a larger cap magazine

    Honestly, I find the 30 round magazines cumbersome and prefer the 20's-- the 30's stick out too far for me. I do keep an AR for a HD rifle. The 20 round magazine gives me 6 triple-taps and change. That said, let me ask you a question? How many rounds does your Glock hold? Why do you need so many?

    As a hunter, the state keeps me at 10 rounds or less, but I prefer bolt rifles for that anyway. Now if you are CPJ, you might need a beta-mag.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    OK, Sam- - - - -what magazine capacity would you be comfortable with in your .45? 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds? Would you be able to defend yourself adequately with a single shot?

    Aren't you buying into the "Let's do something- - - - - -anything- - - - -" train of thought? How effective was the previous 10-year ban on magazines with more than a 10-round capacity?
    Jerry
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    So what's so special about an AR15 or an AK47? Please tell me how any one of these guns is any more dangerous than any other gun out there?

    I dont know. Why do police use them when they encounter a very bad situation or when responding to a gun related call??? why does the military issue them to soldiers and not just handguns?? you have to admit that there is a difference between the capabilities of a pistol versus and AR and AK. I own all 3 and i can see the difference.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    My bad. As you pointed out, it's driving that's the privilege on public roads.

    And my point is the USING the firearm in public.....not it's ownership....

    And Sam, AFA the high-capacity magazines for the AR....have you forgotten about the Zombie-poccy-lypse already? :tooth:
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Yep, and nobody that actually doesn't need to own a pick up truck should not be allowed to own or drive one. Or at least go through a special class.:roll:
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    So what's so special about an AR15 or an AK47? Please tell me how any one of these guns is any more dangerous than any other gun out there?

    The one single difference is high capacity magazine -- ability to fire numerous rounds quickly. Otherwise, no.
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    Yep, and nobody that actually doesn't need to own a pick up truck should not be allowed to own or drive one. Or at least go through a special class.:roll:

    But if you want to drive a truck pass a certain weight you need a CDL licence. If you want to ride a Motorcycle you need a Motorcycle endorsement.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    The rifle is a much better tool. The only edge a handgun has over a rifle is that it is easier to carry and conceal. All the handgun calibers are inadequate for stopping attackers. That is why the military and police use rifles.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    My filter is broken.....
    thats a stupid idea.

    Joker: I'm not stupid, you're stupid.
    Karla: No you're stupid
    Joker: Don't call me stupid, I'm sensitive.
    Karla: Just where's the car keys?
    Joker: You're stupid.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Yes I do. It's none of my business, nor yours what they purchase.
    How would have a license prevented this tragedy?
    Oh, that's right, it wouldn't have.

    You are right maybe not. How about the idea to allow teachers to carry concealed?. Maybe that could have saved some lives dont you think?
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    Sam you can't have your right of free speech infringed because you could possibly yell fire in a theater. The action must be taken before a crime is commited. The same with libel and slander. The 2A protects all your other rights and you want to delegate that right to some slimeball bureaucracy?
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Neither of those prevent you from actually operating said vehicles.

    I was wondering 16 the first time I drove a FIRETRUCK to a fire. I don't need no stinking license!
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Sam, you don't NEED a V8 t-bird. You would be just fine with a 4 cylinder econobox.

    So, you're saying, nobody really needs an AR w. 30-round mag, right?
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    You are right maybe not. How about the idea to allow teachers to carry concealed?. Maybe that could have saved some lives dont you think?

    Agreed. I'm thinking if there had been only one teacher with CCW and training, this might have been cut short.
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Neither of those prevent you from actually operating said vehicles.

    I get your point, really i do. But the fact of the matter is that these politicians are going to take this thing so out of control that we are going to end up with with stupid regulations that are not going to solve anything. At least with my idea they feel fuzzy inside knowing that they did something to change gun regulations but we still get to own any firearm we want with any magazine capacity. Plus we also end up with more educated gun owners.
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