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Gun control laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    Sam you can't have your right of free speech infringed because you could possibly yell fire in a theater. The action must be taken before a crime is commited. The same with libel and slander. The 2A protects all your other rights and you want to delegate that right to some slimeball bureaucracy?

    No, of course I don't want to delegate any of my rights to some bureaucracy. But we do accept restrictions on some of our rights so that we can get along with others in society. If we want to go Crusoe and live as a hermit, nope, we can let it all hang out. Otherwise we do delegate some portions of our rights. That's the reality of our complex society.
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    You are right maybe not. How about the idea to allow teachers to carry concealed?. Maybe that could have saved some lives dont you think?

    They already have a school in Texas that does that.
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    No, of course I don't want to delegate any of my rights to some bureaucracy. But we do accept restrictions on some of our rights so that we can get along with others in society. If we want to go Crusoe and live as a hermit, nope, we can let it all hang out. Otherwise we do delegate some portions of our rights. That's the reality of our complex society.

    By accepting restrictions you are delegating your rights to the power of a bureaucrat. The restriction for the second amendment is already there. Murder IS restricted.
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    I get your point, really i do. But the fact of the matter is that these politicians are going to take this thing so out of control that we are going to end up with with stupid regulations that are not going to solve anything. At least with my idea they feel fuzzy inside knowing that they did something to change gun regulations but we still get to own any firearm we want with any magazine capacity. Plus we also end up with more educated gun owners.

    Until the next time when we lose a little more, and the next time, etc, etc, ad nauseum.....
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    We are doomed. Gun owners telling other gun owners on a freaking 2A forum, what they should or shouldn't be allowed to own. : puke :
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I was about to start a new thread but I think this one will do fine (despite glockman's sticking exclamation key -- haha). No, seriously, I do want to discuss some points in light of this recent shooting and how things may soon proceed in Congress.

    About me, first: I've had guns since my .22LR birthday gift, age 9. Never been much of a hunter and I'm mostly about handguns. However this isn't a factor, as I've had a concealed permit since they were first issued in Texas and I've carried mostly .45s or other large caliber handguns for years.

    Yes, I KNOW "what part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" but we also know that the absolute right to own firearms has indeed been infringed at times and found constitutional, such as short-barrel rifles or shotguns, full auto weapons, etc. ALL our rights from the Bill of Rights (one of the greatest single acts of freedom ever) have been tweaked over the years. As was said, freedom of speech does not give one the right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. We've got freedom of speech but we can't slander, freedom of print but we can't libel, and other things.

    It's a balance, a delicate one, and it shifts from individual rights vs. group liberties. And believe me, I'm a very strong proponent of 2A rights, but I also think that there may be some places where these might be reasonably restricted. I'm gonna ask some serious questions here, and please don't assume I'm trying to pick a fight -- I'm giving deep thought to these things and want to bring up some points...

    1- what's called "assault weapons" are actually "repeating semiauto rifles". So let's talk about the actual weapon. I don't have an AR and simply haven't wanted one enough to buy one. Aside from a repeating rifle that fires, say, 3-5 rounds (small magazine or internal capacity), what does a private citizen have use of one (aside from the fun of shooting a 30-round mag)?

    If you're hunting, at which time would you need more shots? As I said, I've never been much of a hunter so I freely admit to not knowing -- are there hunting instances where you'd need more than a few shots immediately --- before reloading?

    The other use would, of course, be self defense. And civilian, not LEO, please, does anyone know of an instance where a pure-dee private citizen had need to use a large capacity magazine for self defense (here, in the USA)? Not that the armed citizen grabbed his AR and used it to shoot an invader, that I realize can occur. My question is, when did the added rounds get used? Because all the self defense shootings I've read about involved only a few shots. So I'm asking, what instances have you read about where a larger cap magazine was needed?

    These questions go to the point of what might be coming: an "assault weapon" ban. And I'm asking, aside from the "not be infringed" argument, and the sheer fun of shooting high cap mags, what actual "value" does the private citizen get from owning an AR?

    Now I'm NOT saying "ban them" but perhaps there might be restrictions placed on ownership, where the prospective owner needs to take a quick class in their use? After all, we've become used to concealed carry licenses and classes, so maybe an AR class? I dunno -- I'm just asking.

    And yes, I know that gun ownership is a constitutional right and therefore cannot be compared precisely with the privilege of driving a car, but in fact we DO have restrictions on gun ownership, sale, use, etc.

    With that in mind, are there reasonable added restrictions that might be amenable to a pro-gun citizenry?

    Consider for example banning general ownership of hi-cap semiauto rifles. Aside from the fun of shooting hi-cap at the range, are there genuine hunting or self defense issue that might require hi-cap rifles (or pistols for that matter)?

    Understand, I'm trying to approach this issue with an open mind, without any preferences on my part because I'm a lifetime gun owner and longtime 2A/NRA supporter.

    And yes, again, I KNOW "don't give an inch" and generally believe that. But I also need to face reality here, and that there is going to be an immense outcry about some actions to take regarding this terrible shooting. I'm just tossing around ideas and see what you think.


    As much as I hate to do it I am going to agree with Sam a little. I have been arguing in support of the 2A since the early 90's and I have worked in some type of gun shop setting since about '93-'94. Back then man I would debate a gun grabber to the bitter end in support for anyone who is not a felon and legally able to have the right to buy what they wanted. But as time has gone on I have realized that there are people out there who are legally able to purchase a firearm....but have absolutely no business doing so for a variety of reasons. We all know they exist. It would be pretty foolish to deny it. Times have changed and I do not feel like I can argue for blanket coverage for EVERYONE because really I cant trust that the next guy won't go out and do something stupid. There is no way I can honestly say that EVERYONE that is not a felon should have a firearm if they want it. Not every individual is just like everyone on this forum. It they were then I would say YES we can be trusted! But sadly everyone out there is not like us here on the forum.

    Now I have no idea how to fix that....what the answer is and that the answer is something that all of you and even me will hate. But we can't really keep hiding the fact that there are a number of folks that are buying guns that are making us look like fools and are not promoting positive support for the 2A. So what do we do about it? We need to talk about it rationally because Mrs Fienstein is getting ready to decide for us!
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    By accepting restrictions you are delegating your rights to the power of a bureaucrat. The restriction for the second amendment is already there. Murder IS restricted.

    Murder is not covered by 2A...and it's a stretch under 4A because the BOR and the Constitution are documents protecting Citizens from Government Tyranny. The only laws that prohibit murder are Civil Statutes and the 6th Commandment of the Christian Bible.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    As much as I hate to do it I am going to agree with Sam a little. I have been arguing in support of the 2A since the early 90's and I have worked in some type of gun shop setting since about '93-'94. Back then man I would debate a gun grabber to the bitter end in support for anyone who is not a felon and legally able to have the right to buy what they wanted. But as time has gone on I have realized that there are people out there who are legally able to purchase a firearm....but have absolutely no business doing so for a variety of reasons. We all know they exist. It would be pretty foolish to deny it. Times have changed and I do not feel like I can argue for blanket coverage for EVERYONE because really I cant trust that the next guy won't go out and do something stupid. There is no way I can honestly say that EVERYONE that is not a felon should have a firearm if they want it. Not every individual is just like everyone on this forum. It they were then I would say YES we can be trusted! But sadly everyone out there is not like us here on the forum.

    Now I have no idea how to fix that....what the answer is and that the answer is something that all of you and even me will hate. But we can't really keep hiding the fact that there are a number of folks that are buying guns that are making us look like fools and are not promoting positive support for the 2A. So what do we do about it? We need to talk about it rationally because Mrs Fienstein is getting ready to decide for us!

    And when they decide you are too mentally unstable to own a firearm????? What then?
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    There are people that shouldn't breed either, but they do. I know what you guys are saying about the people that really have no business with a gun, but there is absolutely no good place to draw a line. It is a very slippery slope.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Now I have no idea how to fix that....what the answer is and that the answer is something that all of you and even me will hate. But we can't really keep hiding the fact that there are a number of folks that are buying guns that are making us look like fools and are not promoting positive support for the 2A. So what do we do about it? We need to talk about it rationally because Mrs Fienstein is getting ready to decide for us!

    I do and so do you......remember when parents said "the only thing I HAVE to do is feed you, put clothes on your back, and make sure you go to school"!? EDUCATION plain and simple.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    And when they decide you are too mentally unstable to own a firearm????? What then?

    You don't get to buy one through a FFL business......remember the Form 4473 questions? A judge said you're nuts......no soup for you! That doesn't stop cousin Tommy from selling you one though.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    Murder is not covered by 2A...and it's a stretch under 4A because the BOR and the Constitution are documents protecting Citizens from Government Tyranny. The only laws that prohibit murder are Civil Statutes and the 6th Commandment of the Christian Bible.

    The BOR protects you from civilians as well as government.
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    You don't get to buy one through a FFL business......remember the Form 4473 questions? A judge said you're nuts......no soup for you! That doesn't stop cousin Tommy from selling you one though.

    No I meant you specifically, or anyone else on this forum. Some liberal shrink says you don't pass the psych test. Now what are your options. No more guns for you.
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,555 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    We are doomed. Gun owners telling other gun owners on a freaking 2A forum, what they should or shouldn't be allowed to own. : puke :
    Yep.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    No, it doesn't.......it's a list of ammendments to the Constitution, and THAT document was a list of rules for the GOVERNMENT!!!!!

    Take 1A....freedom of speech...it says I can call Obama a hole without repercussion.....if I call you a hole, it doesn't say you can't kick my butt for my slander upon you. Only civil statutes say you can't assault me for insulting you.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    I do and so do you......remember when parents said "the only thing I HAVE to do is feed you, put clothes on your back, and make sure you go to school"!? EDUCATION plain and simple.

    Simple enough to fix, put rifle ranges back in the schools, arm the teachers and teach everybody proper handling of firearms that wants to take the class. We do not tell people they cannot buy a car because they did not do that well on the driver's test, but, we do hold them responsible when they screw up. Gun control won't stop anything. Someone who wants to cause harm to others will find a way to cause harm. We need to provide protection in the schools,( arm the teachers who are willing), and explore our mental health system shoring up the cracks that political correctness has put into the system. Those two actions will save more lives than any magazine bans ever could. If these guys were looking to be famous for going out in a blaze of glory they would attack a police station. No, they want helpless victims, as they haven't the courage to go after anyone who is capable of protecting themselves, which is why they go after "gun free" zones and little kids.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    No, it doesn't.......it's a list of ammendments to the Constitution, and THAT document was a list of rules for the GOVERNMENT!!!!!

    Take 1A....freedom of speech...it says I can call Obama a hole without repercussion.....if I call you a hole, it doesn't say you can't kick my butt for my slander upon you. Only civil statutes say you can't assault me for insulting you.

    It's only slander if its a lie. :jester:
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,868 Senior Member
    You don't get to buy one through a FFL business......remember the Form 4473 questions? A judge said you're nuts......no soup for you! That doesn't stop cousin Tommy from selling you one though.

    That is something we'll soon be talking about as a memory. Private party sales. I myself have stopped doing it, because I DID sell a gun to a man who ended up shooting himself. Took me almost a year to find out it wasn't MY gun he used. I went through a lot of mental anguish over that one.

    edit - besides extremely closer personal friends, that is
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    No I meant you specifically, or anyone else on this forum. Some liberal shrink says you don't pass the psych test. Now what are your options. No more guns for you.

    They are a doctor......get a second opinion.....:tooth:
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    Right....so the state sanctioned shrink paid by the government to test you for your next gun purchase fails you. You think you'll just be able to pop down the street and get one from somewhere else?
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    The one single difference is high capacity magazine -- ability to fire numerous rounds quickly. Otherwise, no.

    Hate to bust your bubble, but I own two Remington 740 30-06 carbines and one 7400 rifle in 30-06. And I have high capacity magazines for them, as in 30 round magazines and a few 10 round magazines. The 10 round magazines are still available, but the 30 round were severely short production. Oddly enough the gas system is not all that different from the AK. They just don't look all scary and stuff without that vertical grip and stuff. Last time I checked the 30-06 round is much more powerful than the 7.62 x 39 or the 5.56 x 45 of the AK and AR respectively. And my Remingtons fire pretty danged fast, too.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    That is something we'll soon be talking about as a memory. Private party sales. I myself have stopped doing it, because I DID sell a gun to a man who ended up shooting himself. Took me almost a year to find out it wasn't MY gun he used. I went through a lot of mental anguish over that one.

    edit - besides extremely closer personal friends, that is

    Sorry to hear that.....that can really screw with your noodle.....

    it may come to 1. illegal 2. legal only through FFL-holder transfer or 3. notorized document of private sale.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    Right....so the state sanctioned shrink paid by the government to test you for your next gun purchase fails you. You think you'll just be able to pop down the street and get one from somewhere else?

    Why not.....criminals have been doing that for years....right? And who says it has to be state-sanctioned? Bring a note from a private doctor like you do with class II medication....."hey doc sez I can have Oxycontin.....fill 'r up!" "hey doc sez I ain't loco G......ring it up!"

    There's no way to stop people from being irresponsible except for their own set of values that they LEARNED.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,555 Senior Member
    What makes you think that they'll learn by going to class? In FL anyone born after 1976 has to have taken a hunter safety course to hunt. However, wildlife officers bust quite a few folks who have taken the class for illegal hunting or for unsafe actions.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    I feel that most of the gun owners on this site feel gun control is the ability to handle the recoil. The horrible school attack has nothing to do with gun control laws already in place. The guns were purchased legally and the buyer was the mom trying to reach her son with a common activity. The failure is not seeing a problem person with easily seen issues and feeding the insanity with violent video games, unlimited internet access, guns easily reached buy the person with the problem ect. The mother was trying to shield her son from being picked on and misshandled.

    The mother was too late trying to get help for her son. He grew into a monster that she couldn't control. This is a collection of errors brought on by societies need to be politically correct. Many mistakes were made and the only shame is that no one did anything to stop the problem before it went out of control. Too many things are considered normal and no action is taken when things go wrong because "it's not my job".If the youngster had armed a U Haul truck with the necessary items used in the Oklahoma bombing more children would have been lost.Banning things, U Haul trucks, semi automatic rifles ect will not cure the problem.

    Maybe the mom was going to do something, maybe her son found out she was looking for a solution and reacted like he'd seen on video games. If something goes wrong all he had to do was reboot and play again. I'm not saying the mom is guilty and I'm not saying the boy was innocent, I'm not saying that society is responsible for allowing freedom. What I'm saying is everyone is responsible. If a person is acting out of order we must take control. It is a shame if a kid kills himself because his actions make him feel that everyone is after him. It is horrible if they kill themselves after murdering 26 innocent people. We need to take stock and act like we have a clue. Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Y'all seem to forget the simple fact that's been drilled.......Freedom ain't Free......you have to pay for it, fight for it, earn it. RIGHTs are a statement toward's government....."don't tread on me, it's my God given right" However your actions will have consequences and repercussions.

    Anyone want to argue about RIGHTS with the Bill of Rights? Look at Prohibition......it was established, then repealed. Your RIGHT extends all the way to the tip of my nose, and no further.

    Let's quit whining about OMG....BOHICA.....and put up a fight! The schoolyard bully government ain't playing by the rules of engagement fellows....we have to out-think and out maneuver it.

    We can't just sit on our butts saying a piece of paper garuntees our laziness...Our grandfathers and fathers fought world tyranny when asked of them.....so that we wouldn't have to.....we didn't have such a crusade, and so our children didn't get that lesson.....now look at them. We complain about people being dumber n a box of rocks.....well think to yourself.....what did YOU do to correct that?
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    What makes you think that they'll learn by going to class? In FL anyone born after 1976 has to have taken a hunter safety course to hunt. However, wildlife officers bust quite a few folks who have taken the class for illegal hunting or for unsafe actions.

    Stupid is as stupid does.....it won't cure the world, but a bit of education will help alleviate dangerous ignorance.

    Anyone here just give the keys to the family car to their daughter w/o training them......stay quiet Teach...we all know you're differnt'! :tooth:
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    There are people that shouldn't breed either, but they do. I know what you guys are saying about the people that really have no business with a gun, but there is absolutely no good place to draw a line. It is a very slippery slope.

    Yes it is! A very dangerous one and I dont even like to think it. But we can not deny it. The other side knows it.
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    FiveSeven wrote: »
    And when they decide you are too mentally unstable to own a firearm????? What then?

    Do you know how many times I have said that to someone I was debating....if I had a dollar.....

    Like I said I have no idea what the answer is. But it is foolish to pretend these people do not exist.
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Okay, drunk driving is a serious problem too. It causes needless deaths. We need to do something about it.

    But it's already a crime. Just like murder.

    Still, we need to pass more regulations. For starters, we outlaw every alcoholic beverage but beer. After all, nobody needs the higher alcohol content of hard liquor. Then we limit the number of beer cans you can purchase. After all, nobody needs six cans or a high capacity bottle. We then outlaw drinking in bars, pubs and parties. Nobody needs to drink with others around. After all, most drunk driving occurs after drinking in a bar, pub or party. Then, we outlaw driving. Nobody needs to drive, they can walk, limp or crawl. So, sit at home and drink your one small can of beer. Light beer only. And next year we'll outlaw beer, juice and soft drinks and only allow drinking water with a permit. On Tuesdays. If there's no full moon. Cuz a full moon brings out the crazies, alcohol or not.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
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