I got this in an email but didn't chk the numbers.

rbsivley

Buford

I'm sorry but those arguments are silly. We as gun owners need to come up with better arguments.

tennmike

Buford has a good point. The lack of mental health treatment, the stigmatization of those who seek it, and the lack of facilities for long term care of those who are mentally ill and may harm themselves or others is IMHO a much more valid argument. And it immediately takes the firearms off the table. The breakup of the nuclear family(Father, Mother involved with the kids) is an extremely valid argument. Our noticeable lack of empathy for others is saddening. There are so many valid issues we should fight for to improve and make better.

orchidman

Buford wrote: »

I'm sorry but those arguments are silly. We as gun owners need to come up with better arguments.

I agree totally. The difference between firearms deaths and the others on the list is that firearms are more emotive and the uninformed will seize upon anything to try to change the stats.
The root cause of recent events is a mental health problem as tennmike says, and that is what needs to be addressed.

Vic's Viewpoint

[QUOTE=tennmike;186693Our noticeable lack of empathy for others is saddening. There are so many valid issues we should fight for to improve and make better.[/QUOTE]

Lack of empathy, you say? Hey, [bleep] 'em if they can't take a joke! No, but seriously Mike, you're right on the money, as usual.

bruchi

We have to come to terms with the reality that firearms unlike baseball bats and hammers are tools ORIGINALLY created for the express purpose of killing folks and as that they are very efficient tools, this for good and unfortunately as well for bad ends, we can't hide that this is a certain reality and why they are so demonized.

For folks bent for whatever reason to murder large numbers of innocent victims there is no better and easy to procure tool, a hammer, bat can be used for killing as well but a gun will ease this mass killings exponentially. To kill with any other "tool", baseball bat, knife, hammer etc. you have to get up close and personal and IMO in this folks minds "reality" is nowhere a place where they are and why, like it or not the reality is that firearms in their hands are so efficient.

Regarding all of this school killings we have to put it out very loudly that making any area a "gun free zones" which only works to keep good folks unarmed and not taking measures to protect those in this areas is an act of irresponsibility as long as folks bent on mass killings target this areas as for their nature of being "gun free zones" they provide for lack of better wording not only "target rich environments" but such where there will be no resistance.

Now another reality is that there are some 300 million firearms owned by civilians in the US, then there are those owned by criminals, banning any kind of firearm, magazine capacity, etc. is not going to do any good to end this killings, it will only keep certain guns away from the hands of responsible gun owners, there are too many guns out there this guy used his mom's guns... and I don't see we come to what happened with firearms in England and still there will be guns around.

The strategy of selling them as inanimate objects is not going to work as the truth of their intent of creation is evident for all, we have to accept this but adding the reality that we have evolved and the original intent of guns is not the reason responsible gun owners have them as a means of sport, defense, hunting and sharing all of this with our friends and families in a safe fashion.

tennmike

Bruchi posted:
The strategy of selling them as inanimate objects is not going to work as the truth of their intent of creation is evident for all, we have to accept this but adding the reality that we have evolved and the original intent of guns is not the reason responsible gun owners have them as a means of sport, defense, hunting and sharing all of this with our friends and families in a safe fashion.

Let's get one thing clear right out the gate. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is NOT ABOUT HUNTING AND SPORT SHOOTING! It is about the defense of the individual and in some cases against a tyrannical state or federal government.

Hunting and sport shooting are regulated by the state; they have been made a privilege with some exceptions. Firearms ownership is a RIGHT protected by the Constitution. Trying to meld the two elevates the privilege and denigrates the right. The right to self defense is a Natural Law and precedes the Constitution. The right to hunt and therefore feed oneself and family is also a natural right that has been denigrated into a privilege in order to protect species from extinction. I, for one, am not in favor of trading my Natural Rights for a government privilege. The government giveth privileges, and can take them away.

Teach

The people who are prone to bow down to government authority don't have much trouble doing an about-face and bending over for the same jackbooted thugs when it's demanded. The best those kind of folks can hope for is the liberal use of some K-Y Jelly!
Jerry

Buford

One question. How many folks here have a gun permit issued by the state? Is this not bending over for the jackbooted thugs?

bruchi

tennmike wrote: »

Let's get one thing clear right out the gate. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is NOT ABOUT HUNTING AND SPORT SHOOTING! It is about the defense of the individual and in some cases against a tyrannical state or federal government.

Point taken.

It is 2012, hundreds of years have passed and a lot of changes have become around, as much as I like to keep my guns and get more it has become incredibly more complex than citizens with muskets keeping us safe from tyranny and what will keep us from falling under an evil oppressive etc., form of "government" is not armed citizens.

For "evil" to take over it would require an unbeatable force bent on accomplishing this and there is too much real state involved for that to happen today.

When I keep on hearing the blind 2nd amendment defense from some folks it sounds a lot like the nonsense that comes from the minds of those "preppers" that have gone way off the reservation.

I do agree 110% that the main reason for citizens to have a RIGHT to own guns is for self defense, bad folks can get them, I want to be able to even the field but for some "militia" to defend us from an evil government taking over? Fantasy land that has become a no effort required defense mantra.