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Breaking in the .280 Remington. (Caution - Autopsy Photos)

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  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Ironically, I've had to shoot more game twice or more using a .270 than I ever have with another cartridge. Go figure.

    Oh, and it seems..........so has Linefinder.

    ;-)

    Yeah and you were probably using all those fancy bullets. I use Game Kings and have yet to shoot anything twice. I have finished off another guys deer but not one my gun shot.

    Don't get me wrong. I know there's a place for most every bullet, but deer just need something that expands. I haven't used Hornady's enough to have a good feel, but the two animals I shot with them didn't take a step and they were both plain jane Interlocks.
    .
    When Speer came out with the Grand Slam, my youngest boy went and bought a box of 150 grains. for his .270 (Yeah, it runs in the family). He said he had two deer run off that he knew he hit good. But then he shot another one and it finally died and he found it. Complete pass through with little expansion. He went back to his Hornadys. I've got what's left of that box and will load it for hogs. But not deer.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    Snake, that reminds me...........

    Hey, Buffy............I have shot two deer with Hornady SST's, 130 grain. Their terminal performance was closely akin to the NBT's, but they seemed a little "harder" to me. Nothing scientific of course, but they didn't leave quite the exit wound I'd come to expect from NBT's. I still think that the NBT's would serve you well, but, if you have any qualms at all, you'd likey like the SST's just fine in your close-in situation.

    If I couldn't get NBT's and had to use SST's instead, I'd not mind at all.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    Yeah and you were probably using all those fancy bullets. I use Game Kings and have yet to shoot anything twice.

    And you would be completely wrong! All I ever hunted with were your precious "run of the mill" bullets. To include Remington Core Lock, Winchester Power Point, and Federal Power Shock. I never used anything "fancy" as you say.

    What do you consider to be "fancy"? Is the A-Max a "fancy" bullet because it has a polymer tip and stellar Ogive? It is priced about the same as most other "run of the mill" bullets. Is the Nosler Ballistic Tip a "fancy" bullet as well because of the tip and the price?

    Is the Sierra BTHP Gameking a fancy bullet because it has no exposed exposed lead at the tip? It looks "fancy"! But, it's inexpensive! So how am I to know what is "fancy" or not?! I'm so confused!

    What constitutes fancy?

    I have had the best terminal performance from the above two bullets. Even over your "run of the mill" choices. Not to mention, the "fancy" A-Max, BT, Bergers, and BTHP Gamekings shoot better than any of the "run of the mill" bullets I've tried.

    The Bergers are the only ones in question as for terminal performance at the moment.

    Please expound!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    You know....I remember when NBT's were considered something exotic and were the latest gee-whiz thing. Now.....meh....they're just a bullet with a huge honkin' HP filled with plastic and almost as cheap as a plain old cup and core projectile.

    I do like me some of those huge honking HP's, though.........

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    OK Then, what's with the Bergers? I thought they were more of a target bullet?
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    OK Then, what's with the Bergers? I thought they were more of a target bullet?

    Target bullets are the least fancy bullet out there. Practically any hunting bullet is much, much more complicated.

    All a target bullet has to do is be accurate, and the simpler the construction the better. A hunting bullet's work, OTOH, has only just started once it hits the target.

    Believe me.....there's nothing construction-wise about a Berger that's fancy.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Snake, if your son had two deer run off, he made two bad shots. Period. A 150 grain bullet, no matter the construction,moving close to 3000 fps, placed in the proper location will kill a deer dead, dead, dead.
    Even a 270.

    I'm sure they died, but probably 200 yards later. They evidently passed right through. They aren't made for deer size game. Not enough tissue to cause proper expansion. If what you say is true, then why do they make soft point bullets? To increase expansion. Expansion wreaks havoc on the plumbing putting the animal down faster.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    If they aren't fancy, then why do they cost twice as much?
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    If they aren't fancy, then why do they cost twice as much?

    Berger's main target demographic is the rifle competition crowd. For every competitive rifle shooter out there, there's probably a thousand hunters and a few thousand tin-can shooters. Berger doesn't have the market saturation that the big boys have. Limited runs = higher costs.

    Add the fact that most guys that have invested thousands of $$ in a single BR rig don't usually think twice about paying 25 cents more for a good target bullet and you've got the rest of the answer.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Hey, Buffy............I have shot two deer with Hornady SST's, 130 grain. Their terminal performance was closely akin to the NBT's, but they seemed a little "harder" to me.

    Buffy-- I had a box of those turn up in the Man Cave tonight. I thought I sent all the .270 bullets I had your way, but it looks like I missed one. I will get them down there whenever the cap for the powder measure turns up.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Okay, so you're satisfied with Bergers in 33.3% of the calibers you've tried them


    edited to add:

    Will the next box/lot# of the 115s work like your current one, or will they perform like the other 2 :uhm:


    edited again to add: That doubt, along with my past performance of one detonating on the skin is more than enough to turn me OFF of Bergers for hunting for good :nono:

    Here's that thing, I like experimenting with different bullets. I like studying terminal performance. Some people like to party..........I like to study bullets and how well they cause death. Terminal performance is a passion.

    So, I like trying new bullets and new cartridges and new angles. Just to see what they do. I am not the hunter out there looking for that one perfect bullet. I'm the nut job in the corner digging through a gut pile dissecting the path of a bullet, organs hit, and comparing them to the animals reaction upon being hit. It's what I like to do. It's how I learn. It's interesting.

    Some just want a dead animal and meat in the freezer. I want to know how the animal got dead.

    Because if that, I am willing to try as many different bullets as I can. Even the same bullet to see if the results will be different. For crying out loud, I tried to mimic (as best I could) the exact same shot as Friday using a different cartridge to see how the two compared! To say I'm obsessed is an understatement!

    Am I pleased with the Berger results? No! Am I going to use them again? Yes! Do I hope to find the cause of the less than wanted results? Heck yeah! Because, I love how well they shoot and I know hundreds of others are getting good results. I'm just trying to find out why these particular bullets aren't giving them to ME!

    I'm in love with A-Max bullets! But, that will not stop me from using others. That would be boring as staring at a white wall.

    My work here is not done. It's all about the science.

    Edit: As to your first question..............I am never satisfied. That's how we learn more.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Where is that? In the heart? How many on here tell about hitting the heart and the deer still runs. But if you have massive trauma in the boiler room because of that wound channel it won't run very far if at all. Like I said, your point is moot. If we could make shots like that everytime, we wouldn't need hunting bullets. Solids or other heavy duty bullets would be all we'd need to kill deer. But a deer isn't as big as an elephant or a buffalo or even an elk. If you use too solid or well constructed bullet on deer or smaller game, you will get pass through and your trophy deer may end up expiring in the next Zip Code.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Do you have the target version of that Berger?

    If this was addressed to me.......no I don't. I don't have any Berger target bullets.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Some good you are.
    Maybe if you knew someone :Ernie: who had some, you could load up a few of each, and shoot them into water jugs and compare results.

    They would have to be loaded to the exact same velocity in order to have an even comparison. Maybe that is something I can do this summer. When it's too hot to kill live critters.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Well, duh.
    We would have to assume that a 140 target and 140 hunting bullet would yield the same speed with the same powder charge. They are the same shape/ profile, correct?
    Oh, and without a chronograph, you can't be sure that they are loaded to the exact same velocity. :snap:

    I was alluding to the fact that, by this summer, I might have my MagnetoSpeed you Ninny!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    Nope!

    But.................I'm starting to want one.







    Somewhere in the back of my little brain.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    I am sure you are welcome to use mine and CPJ's Chrony... the one that is set up in Tennessee one day a year. :tooth:
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member WyomingPosts: 8,566 Senior Member
    I have a spare Chrony chronograph I can send so the anticipation won't be overbearing :)
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    I already have access to one if I ever really need it.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Zed, I know you like to experiment, and by now you should know I do as well.

    Apparently my post came across with an unintended tone, The intended gist of it was two-fold:

    1) Berger APPARENTLY has some issues with consistent performance
    and
    2) Because of that plus our combined experience with them, I am DONE buying Bergers for hunting

    I'm not done with Berger Bullets for hunting. As I said, they shoot so well AND.......so many others have excellent results in terminal performance. They aren't popular for just their looks. They have to perform to do as well on the market as they are. A turd won't float forever. So, Berger must be doing something right.

    Do I think there is an issue? Yes. The terminal results I'm getting don't seem to match their description. Maybe I'm wrong. But, I don't think so. Something is amiss.

    But, they seem willing to investigate if there is an issue. This is off their web site.
    Berger will spare no effort in resolving a quality issue if it is determined that the bullets are bad. As hard as we try, we are not perfect and are capable of admitting this fact. Our process is set up to minimize human failings but these things can happen. If they do, I stand behind our quality and will make sure we resolve the matter to your full satisfaction. I will go even further and will openly communicate these situations so that we can prevent others from the same negative experience. We are committed to your complete satisfaction with our products and service.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member WyomingPosts: 8,566 Senior Member
    I remember the days when Eric took over, I was both surprised and pleased with his willingness to go on-line in forums and seek information. He took his share of criticism from people who were upset, but you can't help respecting him for going to shooters (long-range BR is who I am referencing here) in figuring out what was causing some bullet blow-ups in matches.
    Walt is a jewel as well. They really make serious efforts to get problems solved and customers satisfied. The statement that Zee posted is true of them.
    Their customer service is great.

    I do not solely use Berger bullets. I also use JLK's, A-Max's, and SMK's. I use what works best in my barrel (for groups and distance) and the bullet I think will work best for game.
    I am convinced they will get this figured out.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    What I'm not seeing is the "shrapnel" supposedly caused by the shedding of 40-85% of it's mass after penetrating 2-3" of tissue. I see no secondary wounds in the lungs or surrounding tissue. At least the off side lung should have a dramatic increase in tissue damage if the bullet comes apart.

    A dramatic wound cavity 13-15" long should be occurring. Granted, these deer are not that wide. But, where is the beginning of this? It seems the bullet isn't really starting to "shrapnel" until exit on the off side after hitting ribs on both examples.

    I'm not even seeing much sign of temporary cavity and assuredly not perminant cavity.

    Lungs are soft and pliable. That's how they expand and contract during breathing. So, they won't always rip and tear with temporary cavitation. But, there should be excessive bruising greater than 1-2" surrounding the path of the bullet. At least, from what I've seen of other bullets (A-Max).

    Maybe I'm expecting too much. Might need to take one straight on to see the entire path of the bullet.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,599 Senior Member
    I have to admire someone who takes the time to experiment and autopsy their game.

    I loaded 130 gr Nosslers for my brother for a special hunt he was going on. To make a long story short he pin holed a nice deer. He did recover it but the bullet performance wasn't good. For that reason I stay with Sierra Game kings in my hunting rifles. They have performed every time in my brother's 270, my 308 and both my son's and my 280. I have droped deer from 25 yards to 280 yards. Most were bang flops and the furthest got 25 yards. Entry wound has averaged from a quarter to half dollar size and the exit was bigger than my fist. I use 130s in the 270, 160s in our 280s and 165s in my 308. I've never recovered a bullet.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,060 Senior Member
    I'm glad you have options.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Western PAPosts: 8,233 Senior Member
    You might be experiancing a case of "stuff happens".

    In my sons 25-06 I was real happy with the Hornadys at the range. I posted the autopsy of his first deer on here and I was thinking it was almost overkill. FYI he hit just over the heart where you were aiming and it was a one bounce and done. His second deer, same load, was hit a little bit aft, real close to where you put the hole in this one. The deer ran a good 150-200 yards and the holes looked a lot like yours. This year, same load, he hit just at the rear of the front leg, 2/3's of the way down, the deer took 5 steps, shuddered and fell.

    IMHO, the bullet hit mostly air. It was between ribs, then 2 air bags, then out. There was nothing to force the bullet to expand. It was a kill shot, but it wasn't a good one. The deer has to basicly fill up its lungs with blood before it dies, because you really havent given it a reason to fall over DRT.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    The reason they make bullets that expand....is to make a larger wound channel. Duh.
    However, what I said is still true. Put the bullet where it's supposed to be, and the deer will die.
    And if they died 200 yards later, well, I'll leave that one alone.

    No, they also make more Frangible bullets to expand in smaller animals. An elk bullet, or a bullet that expands in a big elk may not do the same in a much smaller deer's body. That's why Nosler makes Ballisitic Tips and also makes Partition. You don't need a Partition on a whitetail. Some use them and effectively, but you have to be johnny on the money to put it down fast because a Partition can be out the opposite side of a smaller animal before it expandes enough to wreak havoc. But a Ballistics Tip is fairly frangible and will open up and take the deer's plumbing apart and put him down almost immediately if not sooner.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    What I'm not seeing is the "shrapnel" supposedly caused by the shedding of 40-85% of it's mass after penetrating 2-3" of tissue. I see no secondary wounds in the lungs or surrounding tissue. At least the off side lung should have a dramatic increase in tissue damage if the bullet comes apart.

    A dramatic wound cavity 13-15" long should be occurring. Granted, these deer are not that wide. But, where is the beginning of this? It seems the bullet isn't really starting to "shrapnel" until exit on the off side after hitting ribs on both examples.

    I'm not even seeing much sign of temporary cavity and assuredly not perminant cavity.

    Lungs are soft and pliable. That's how they expand and contract during breathing. So, they won't always rip and tear with temporary cavitation. But, there should be excessive bruising greater than 1-2" surrounding the path of the bullet. At least, from what I've seen of other bullets (A-Max).

    Maybe I'm expecting too much. Might need to take one straight on to see the entire path of the bullet.

    I have never tried Bergers for target Nor hunting, so I'm not going to insert my other foot in my mouth just yet. But I will ask this; have you tried them on any game heavier than deer? They might be the cat's meow, and this may be a case of not being frangible enough for smallish Texas Deer. Yeah, maybe I was wrong in calling them fancy, and seeing as I was screwed up in using the word fancy, maybe they are just too tough a bullet for that size game?

    Anyway, I went to Victoria to take my Aunt and my Mother to the doctor so I ran by a LGS called the Armory, where I usually buy bullets when I'm experimenting or working up loads, and bought a box of Combined Technologies 130 grain .277 bullets and 150 grain 7mm bullets. I have some 7Rem. Mag primed cases here that have been awaiting powder and bullets. Since I already have a 150 grain load worked up, I'm going to substitute the CT 150 for the NBT 150 and see if they shoot any better. Not much difference other than the Molybdenom Oxide coating. But these bullets seem a whole lot slicker than the normal NBT.

    Also, I want to see how they do in my .270 with the 130 grains. I almost got 140s for the .270, but why kick a sleeping dog? 130s have been working for me for 46 years.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Unfortunately, it takes more than "shooting so well" for my hunting bullets.

    Berger's willing to work on the QC issues, that's great, for the price their bullets command, they SHOULD.

    I'm not willing to risk losing game while they work their issues out. I don't like the idea of not knowing if a bullet is going to blow up on the skin, like the 155 did from my '06, or if it's going to have minimal expansion like you're experiencing. Or is it going to perform as advertised?

    In my 30+ years of hunting, I've lost a grand total of 3 deer. I remember and am bothered by every one of them.

    Inconsistently performing bullets don't last long in my world. Couldn't care less how pretty they are, or how well they shoot. I want my hunting bullets to have "enough" accuracy for me to put it in the vitals if I do my part, and I DEMAND reliable performance.

    At this point in time, Berger apparently can't deliver that. There are quite a few other bullets out there that can deliver the reliable performance I demand

    OK Y'all, now listen up!!! This is basically where I'm at and where I've been since I saw a deer run off using a bullet that didn't expand. That was about 25 years ago. That broke me from sucking eggs. I'm particular about what I hunt with. And I, like Paul here, don't give a hoot if it cost .5 cents a bullet. If I have confidence that's what I want. But for deer I have found that the best bullets usually aren't the higher priced ones, regardless that I paid $62 today for 100 bullets. But I have confidence in those CTs now and I have confidence in Sierra Game Kings AND I'm getting there with Hornady Interlocks. But the main thing, if I've lost a deer with a certain bullet and reasonably suspect it was poor performance on the bullet's part, then I won't use it again unless I have a lot of proof that the maker corrected the problem, and then I'm going to be cautious.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    I remember the days when Eric took over, I was both surprised and pleased with his willingness to go on-line in forums and seek information. He took his share of criticism from people who were upset, but you can't help respecting him for going to shooters (long-range BR is who I am referencing here) in figuring out what was causing some bullet blow-ups in matches.
    Walt is a jewel as well. They really make serious efforts to get problems solved and customers satisfied. The statement that Zee posted is true of them.
    Their customer service is great.

    I do not solely use Berger bullets. I also use JLK's, A-Max's, and SMK's. I use what works best in my barrel (for groups and distance) and the bullet I think will work best for game.
    I am convinced they will get this figured out.

    Scuse me for missing this, but Ernie, what bullet is a JLK??
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member WyomingPosts: 8,566 Senior Member
    http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/
    snake284-1 wrote: »
    Scuse me for missing this, but Ernie, what bullet is a JLK??
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
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