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Cabellas new policy for New Yorkers

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Replies

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Blazer wrote: »
    How are they supporting the 2nd amendment by denying the sale of a gun to an INDIVIDUAL person who happens to be from NY? As stated in my letter I even had it arranged that Cabellas could ship the gun to a Pennsylvania dealer, thereby taking them out of the loop and preventing any dealings with NY State. If they simply boycotted selling to NY State governments or municipalities and the like I would say fine, good for you. If violating the NY law was their only concern then shipping it to a Pa FFL took care of that for them. And I still point my finger at them.

    They are making no sales to a quasi police state; that is how they are supporting the 2nd Amendment. If the citizens can't have it, then no one in the government can, either!

    And having it shipped from Cabela's to a PA dealer to a NY dealer would not stop up any holes if the law were found to exclude that pistol as being legal in NY. You go from two FFLs in trouble(Cabela's and the one in NY) to three in violation of the law when the PA FFL is thrown in. It WOULD NOT, in your words, "take them out of the loop"; Cabela's would be in the cesspool clear up to their eyeballs. You do NOT know the Fed. regs on gun sales between FFLs in different states; that FACT is obvious!

    Just because you are in law enforcement does not give you special dispensation to skirt the laws concerning firearms sales interstate. Until the law just passed in NY State is settled and in final form, not much will be shipped to NY from interstate sources. And I've made the reasons obvious in several posts. Nobody will put their neck on the chopping block so that YOU can have that new pistol.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,440 Senior Member
    Hey Blazer, Thanks for this information. In protest, I will not be doing business with Cabela's anymore. I usually buy something something from them every year,and have done so since,1999. I will locate another source for my gun needs,until Cabela's reverses this inept,and anti-2nd amendment,company policy.

    Actually, it is pro 2nd amendment and anti NY.

    btw - i haven't read the new law but I would bet that they are concerned about their potential legal liability should one of their SA guns end up with a normal sized cap mag in it during a crime. The NY gov and the NYC mayor have made it clear that they want to sue gun shops into insolvency.
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,648 Senior Member
    I don't think we should put a pro- gun business on the spot for its reluctance to cause trouble for itself in NY, the most gun-hating state in the union.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Blazer, I know it hurts, but we are now at that awkward moment when New Yorkers, personally and individually, must accept the punishments and consequences for electing the people they do. In a republic, the voters get the government they deserve. Of course, you could always vote again - this time with your feet. Get the FiretrUCK out of N.Y. If that's inconvenient, then get out your checkbook. Make sizeable donations to the NRA, GOA and SAF. About $500 to each sounds about right. Freedom is never free. And plan to donate a lot of your future days off to working in the campaigns of candidates running against your incumbent politicians. Go get 'em, tiger.
  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    I think Blazer and a lot of folks like him need to understand that FFL holders have it pretty rough. There is very little profit being a gun dealer. Right now ALL OF US are under the media microscope. The smallest mistake by regular gun owners and gun dealers will be used by the media and blown out of proportion. This will give the gun haters more leverage against us. Businesses can not afford to make a mistake because this is their bread and butter. If something does not feel right in a transaction you can bet the guy behind the counter is going to consider whether making a sale is in the best interest to the store. You will probably not hear much from the media about Blazer being angry he was denied at Cabelas but I promise you if the guy behind the counter were to ignore his gut feeling and that gun ended up in the wrong place you can bet it would be a media circus. Blazer right now our image as a whole is vastly more important then your individual purchase you were denied.
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • guinnessguinness Member Posts: 62 Member
    Blazer wrote: »
    While there, I found a Sig Sauer M1911 that I wanted to
    buy as a gift for my father. I already legally own
    a few handguns and was going to give this gun to my father as soon as he
    obtained his New York State pistol license.

    I am surprised no one (not that I saw) posted that it would be illegal for Cabella's (or anyone else) to sell you the gun, if you stated that it was going to be for your father. In my state, and I assume it federal, you can't buy for someone else. I know that isn't the subject here, but it should be mentioned.
  • Ranch13Ranch13 Senior Member Posts: 820 Senior Member
    guinness wrote: »
    I am surprised no one (not that I saw) posted that it would be illegal for Cabella's (or anyone else) to sell you the gun, if you stated that it was going to be for your father. In my state, and I assume it federal, you can't buy for someone else. I know that isn't the subject here, but it should be mentioned.

    It was mentioned at least once, and it is federal law, says so right on the 4473.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    The 4473 asks if you are the actual purchaser. Yes, Blazer would be the actual purchaser-- he is purchasing it as a gift for his father. I am not in the mood to do the digging for all of that, but there is nothing against the law about purchasing (and giving) a firearm as a gift. It is not considered a straw purchase. If he was purchasing it for someone that he knows couldn't get it otherwise (gift or not), that would be a straw purchase.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The 4473 asks if you are the actual purchaser. Yes, Blazer would be the actual purchaser-- he is purchasing it as a gift for his father. I am not in the mood to do the digging for all of that, but there is nothing against the law about purchasing (and giving) a firearm as a gift. It is not considered a straw purchase. If he was purchasing it for someone that he knows couldn't get it otherwise (gift or not), that would be a straw purchase.


    Here it is, more or less, straight out of the horses mouth about buying a firearm as a gift. A little over half way down the page.

    http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html



    What if a customer who qualifies to own a gun buys a firearm as a gift for someone else?


    The same rules apply. A transaction is legal as long as the person who fills out form 4473 does so truthfully and completes it as the actual purchaser. In that particular situation, we usually like to make sure they are aware of the rules associated with ATF I 5300.2. Again, you should feel comfortable denying the purchase if you think the customer is being dishonest in any way.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    What really gets screwed up is what I did when I gave my nephews shotguns. I paid for them at the LGS, then had my nephews come in and do the 4473 and pick them up. I was the actual purchaser, but they took custody of the guns.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    What really gets screwed up is what I did when I gave my nephews shotguns. I paid for them at the LGS, then had my nephews come in and do the 4473 and pick them up.

    :uhm: That's no real difference than buying a gift certificate and letting them go in and do the 4473 paperwork. Actually, when buying a firearm as a gift, the NSSF recommends a gift certificate instead of buying the firearm, filling out the 4473, and then giving the firearm as a gift.

    Edit to add:
    Here's the NSSF blurb on the buying as a gift. I'm getting old; I forgot to put in the URL. :tooth:

    http://www.nssf.org/newsroom/releases/show.cfm?PR=120610.cfm&path=2010

    Though there's no federal law that prohibits a gift of a firearm to a relative or friend that lives in your home state, some states—California for example—require you to transfer the gun through a local firearms dealer so an instant background check will be performed to make sure the recipient is not legally prohibited from owning the gun.

    The ATF recommends that if you want to give someone a new firearm, rather than going to a gun store, buying it on your own and giving it to, say, your father, consider instead purchasing a gift certificate from that retailer and giving that to Dad as his present. That way he'll get exactly the gun he wants, and there's no question about who is "the actual buyer of the firearm," which is a question any purchaser must certify on the Federal Form 4473 at the time of purchase.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    "I already legally own a few handguns and was going to give this gun to my father as soon as he obtained his New York State pistol license."

    No "New York State Pistol License"- - - - - -straw purchase! I'll bet the OP said something about the lack of a license, which should have raised all sorts of red flags for the seller. Even without the recent stupid attack by the legislators, the sale should have been denied, and being out of state would seem to be another prohibiting factor unless a NY FFL was involved somehow.
    Jerry
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    "I already legally own a few handguns and was going to give this gun to my father as soon as he obtained his New York State pistol license."

    No "New York State Pistol License"- - - - - -straw purchase! I'll bet the OP said something about the lack of a license, which should have raised all sorts of red flags for the seller. Even without the recent stupid attack by the legislators, the sale should have been denied, and being out of state would seem to be another prohibiting factor unless a NY FFL was involved somehow.
    Jerry

    If I was a conspiracy theorist, and I AIN'T, I might suspect that this is another Bloomberg attempt to discredit PA FFLs as facilitators of such straw purchases. Kinda glad I don't have an 01 FFL anymore. More and more I trust strangers less and less. Not paranoid, just a might overly cautious.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    He was going to have it sent to a NY FFL if I recall. Maybe it would have sat there until dad got his pistol license, or whatever. I don't see it being a problem at all as long as dad was legal when he received the gun.

    Regardless, none of this is Cabella's fault. It is the politicians in NY that have created the situation and the blame rests on them. The law was a hastily written turd that was passed and signed literally in the middle of the night. It is awful, terrible knee-jerk legislation. Cabella's is a big company and I really don't blame them for keeping the door closed on potentially millions in litigation and liability.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    Blazer wrote: »
    How are they supporting the 2nd amendment by denying the sale of a gun to an INDIVIDUAL person who happens to be from NY? As stated in my letter I even had it arranged that Cabellas could ship the gun to a Pennsylvania dealer, thereby taking them out of the loop and preventing any dealings with NY State. If they simply boycotted selling to NY State governments or municipalities and the like I would say fine, good for you. If violating the NY law was their only concern then shipping it to a Pa FFL took care of that for them. And I still point my finger at them.
    They are supporting the 2A by refusing to do business with a state that enacted a **** and probably unconstitutional law in regards to firearms.

    To make sure they don't violate that obama-nation of a law, they're not doing any business with anyone from that state. Probably with the HOPE that it will serve as a wake-up call to the population to change their state gov to something more palatable to the folks that believe the phrase, "Shall not be infringed" means exactly that.

    There are quite a few manufacturers that are also boycotting ANY sales of their products inside the state of NY
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    It's annoying, but I can't really fault Cabelas for protecting their ASSets.

    What's more annoying is current, or former, law enforcement officers that flaunt themselves as thought they are somehow better than us peons.

    And being Law Enforcement of that "great state"apparently sworn in and agreeing to uphold and enforce the rediculous laws of that state!

    And if from or being LEO in Long Island,? Hasn't the city of New York had some very unconstitutional/restrictive/oppressive gun laws you've been sworn to enforce for at least 17 years? Seems hypocritical to me, from my limited perspective. Especially if as a LEO you've been able to carry a handgun around in ny city, while other law abiding citizens walked around defenseless. Now you're being treated like everyone else in NY, and it sucks doesn't it?
  • JLDickmonJLDickmon Senior Member Posts: 1,726 Senior Member
    Drumheller wrote: »
    The problem is they are punishing the law abiding citizen when they will not sell legal gun to NY. The gun in question is legal for anyone in the state to own from what I have read.

    No, it is NOT.
    It will ACCEPT a magazine with a capacity greater then seven rounds.
    Makes it an "assault weapon."

    I have a Ruger 10-22 with a Fajen stock.
    That got dinged twice.
    A. It's a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable ten round magazine.
    B. It has a thumbhole stock.

    It's just now starting to sink in what a butt fork rodeo this is, and a lot of guys are gonna get REALLY CHEESED OFF.
    Never laugh at your wife's choices.
    You are one of them.
  • Ranch13Ranch13 Senior Member Posts: 820 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The 4473 asks if you are the actual purchaser. Yes, Blazer would be the actual purchaser-- he is purchasing it as a gift for his father. I am not in the mood to do the digging for all of that, but there is nothing against the law about purchasing (and giving) a firearm as a gift. It is not considered a straw purchase. If he was purchasing it for someone that he knows couldn't get it otherwise (gift or not), that would be a straw purchase.

    BINGO give the man a cupy doll. Straw purchase all the way.
    Plus with the way things are around the country unless you are purchasing that gun for someone that lives in your household and keeps said gun in the same safe as your weapons, it's probably really best you don't buy/fill out the 4473 that gun, let the person it's intended for fill out the paper work, that way if the gun shows up someplace it shouldn't of been, you're not going to be the one getting the knock on the door by the ATF agent and the local constable..
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,089 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Simple solution- - - - -get the frack out of Noo Yawk!
    Jerry

    Like X2 :up:
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,440 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The 4473 asks if you are the actual purchaser. Yes, Blazer would be the actual purchaser-- he is purchasing it as a gift for his father. I am not in the mood to do the digging for all of that, but there is nothing against the law about purchasing (and giving) a firearm as a gift. It is not considered a straw purchase. If he was purchasing it for someone that he knows couldn't get it otherwise (gift or not), that would be a straw purchase.


    If I buy my father a AR as a gift, there is nothing wrong with that because my dad lives in Texas, has never committed a crime, is a citizen, and is not otherwise prohibited from owning one in that state.

    If he lived in NY (where the gun may be banned) and I did the transaction to hide his purchase, I would have a problem.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Well, I don't like that 7 round thing for the obvious reason that if you load a round in the chamber of a 1911 and then lock a full 7 round magazine in the mag well, you have an 8 shot pistol. Having read the stupid poorly worded alphabet soup of a law NY passed, a 1911 could be seen as being illegal because it can physically hold 8 rounds. As a whole, that NY law looks like a bunch of drunken monkeys got turned loose on a bunch of typewriters, with a few breaks with several croaker sacks full of footballs to keep them agitated.

    There's some good folk in NY state, but they are badly outnumbered by those in the single digit I.Q. range.

    To quote a bit of Patrick Henry, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

    The NY legislature and governor mean to control the people and every aspect of their lives. Time for the good sane people of NY to make the choice. Liberties once lost are lost forever, or until the next revolution.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Ranch13Ranch13 Senior Member Posts: 820 Senior Member
    If I buy my father a AR as a gift, there is nothing wrong with that because my dad lives in Texas, has never committed a crime, is a citizen, and is not otherwise prohibited from owning one in that state.

    If he lived in NY (where the gun may be banned) and I did the transaction to hide his purchase, I would have a problem.

    There is a problem with that AR if you purchase and then give it to him. You as a private citizen cannot transfer any firearm to someone from another state. That can only be done by a licensed dealer.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    If I buy my father a AR as a gift, there is nothing wrong with that because my dad lives in Texas, has never committed a crime, is a citizen, and is not otherwise prohibited from owning one in that state.

    If he lived in NY (where the gun may be banned) and I did the transaction to hide his purchase, I would have a problem.

    You cannot buy the firearm as a gift if you know the person is prohibited. That would be a straw purchase.


    Edited for those easily offended and excitable..
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    You cannot buy the firearm as a gift. That would be a straw purchase.
    EHHHHHHHH WRONG ANSWER :nono:... sorry, but thanks for playing
    www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html
    Here's the part of their training exercise where they cover firearms as gifts
    felons, who are also prohibited from conducting a firearms transaction, will sometimes attempt to obtain guns this way, because they wouldn’t pass the NICS background check and could not truthfully fill out Form 4473. If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the Form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

    edited to add: Here's a link to ATF's online 4473, look at the instructions for question 11a (on page 4 of 6)

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
    To save you the trouble of actually having to look it up, here's a screen cap of directions for question 11a
    I highlighted the part about buying it as a gift
    4473_zps8bb156a4.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    EHHHHHHHH WRONG ANSWER :nono:... sorry, but thanks for playing

    A touch testy are we? You would be willing to put your freedom on the line to test that?

    So why can't any joe schmo or mary not purchase a firearm as "a gift" for their gangbanger boyfriend/girlfriend? Maybe the giftee has never been charged with a crime that Mary knows about.

    I see you answered my question. So, as long as somebody doesn't KNOW for a FACT that the person they are buying the firearm for is not legally allowed a firearm, it's not a straw purchase?

    So, basically what you are so up in arms about is that anyone should be able to purchase a firearm for someone else as long as that person BELIEVES that the giftee is OK to own it?
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    So why can't any joe schmo or mary not purchase a firearm as "a gift" for their gangbanger boyfriend/girlfriend? Maybe the giftee has never been charged with a crime
    That would be legal. It would also be legal for the gangbanger to buy a firearm directly from an FFL if there is nothing (felony conviction, illegal drugs, domestic violence, judged mentally ill, etc.) that is holding him/her back.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    A touch testy are we? You would be willing to put your freedom on the line to test that?
    Yes I would, and I get testy when someone spouts BS as the gospel when I posted the instructions for the ACTUAL FREAKIN' QUESTION on the ACTUAL FREAKIN' FORM that would lead to your prosecution for a "straw purchase"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That would be legal. It would also be legal for the gangbanger to buy a firearm directly from an FFL if there is nothing (felony conviction, illegal drugs, domestic violence, judged mentally ill, etc.) that is holding him/her back.

    So, essentially, anyone can buy a firearm for anyone else, as long as they claim ignorance?
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Yes I would, and I get testy when someone spouts BS as the gospel when I posted the instructions for the ACTUAL FREAKIN' QUESTION on the ACTUAL FREAKIN' FORM that would lead to your prosecution for a "straw purchase"

    What gospel are you talking? :chill:

    You need to calm the F down!

    The ATF barely knows their own rules and you are going to pretend to be the authority on it?
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    So, essentially, anyone can buy a firearm for anyone else, as long as they claim ignorance?
    Read those instructions on page 4 of the 4473 link I posted. It lists some instances where you cannot & SPECIFICALLY mentions that you can't buy for a "prohibited person"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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