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1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
I'm thinking of getting into homebrewing. What do you think of the Mr. Beer kits for beginners?

Thx,

ed
Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!

Replies

  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Thats odd you bring this up. I too have been considering this lately. I think it would be a fun hobby with an oppurtunity to "tune" my own brew. Hopefully others chime in soon.
  • TSchubTSchub Posts: 783 Senior Member
    It's a time consuming hobby. I made some good beer with some kits that I got at the LBS(local brewery shop), but had some expensive failures also. Cheaper to go and get a six pack and call it good.
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Posts: 588 Senior Member
    The "Mr. Beer" kit is a definite no. Junk. That is not how real beer is made.

    I would suggest a True Brew kit. Also, the book "The Joy of Homebrewing." True Brew is a good, inexpensive way to get started. They have various versions with different equipment options but I'm pretty sure all of them include everything you need (except ingredients and bottles). It shoul also come with a booklet of basic instructions and some recipes.

    One of the most important aspects of homebrewing is sanitation. It is critical that everything be not just clean but sanitized. Nothing should ever touch the beer that has not been sanitized. Otherwise, you can easily ruin your batch. That's how you get those expensive failures.

    Sorry TSchub, but it's not cheaper to just go buy the beer. Not if you're buying any decent micro brew. Lately I've been seeing 6 pack prices in the $10-12 range. Add tax and deposit and it's from $85-100 for 2 cases. A typical 5 gallon batch of homebrew yeilds about 2 cases and the ingredients range about $45-60, depending on what you brew. Significant savings that will quickly make up for the cost of the brew kit. Plus you have the satisfaction of that "I made this!" feeling. Makes a great gift too. I also make my own wine- my cost per bottle is about $2.50- $2.75. I have over a hundred bottles in my wine rack right now. Once again- great gifts that people really appreciate and don't cost much (besides some time and effort).

    Obviously, I encourage you to go for it. If you do, feel free to pm me with any questions- I'd also be happy to share recipes. Enjoy!
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Shawn--

    Many, many thanks for the tip on the book:worthy:. I'll have MyWifetheLibrarian see what's availible through her sources, then start collecting the hardware. When I start collecting the ingredients, I'll buy the book.

    Amazon listed a couple of others:

    How to Brew: Everything You Need to Know to Brew Beer Right the First Time by John J. Palmer

    Designing Great Beers: The Ultimiate Guide to Brewing Classic Beer Styles by Ray Daniels

    I can get the three as a package for about $35. My only worry is conflicting information--for example, I bake bread from time to time. Some of the books I have say to put the liquids in the bottom of the machine, then the flour, then the yeast, others say, yeast, then flour, then liquids. The bread seems to turn out okay no matter which way I do it (I know, the main thing is NOT to get the yeast wet before the actual kneading takes place) but, ya know, it's a tad confusing:uhm:. Especially when a guy has to wait a week or a month to find out, did I just trash fifty bucks worth of ingredients:angry:?

    Anyway, many thanks for the lead on the book and are the others worth having?

    Also, about bottles--in Germany, we called them "flippies", bottles with wired on ceramic stoppers with rubber gaskets. Are these worth using, or should I just start saving longnecks? Maybe buy some sanitizer?

    ed

    P.S.

    You realize, of course, that you may have just created a monster??!!??:beer:

    ed

    P.P.S.

    I just LOVE:love: this forum . Hot Tuna!

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Posts: 588 Senior Member
    I'm not familiar with the other books you mentioned but I wouldn't think more info would be bad. Joy of Homebrewing is generally considered the homebrewer's Bible so I allways suggest starting with that then adding to your resource library as you go. I understand your concern about conflicting info. I've been brewing for over ten years and currently bartend at a brewpub where I get to pick the brewer's brain. I've brewed with friends and talked to a lot of other brewers over the years. I've discovered there are a lot of right ways to do the same thing.

    If one of your books says do it this way and the other says another way- they are most likely both viable options. Most guys I talk to do things a little different from me or each other. Brewing is a learning process. You gradually change the way you do things - mainly to make the system work better for you, not necesarrily because something you were doing was wrong. It can be easy- do exactly as the instructions say and follow the recipe exactly. Or it can be hard- improvise techniques and experiment with your own recipes. Start with easy. As you learn, make it hard by experimenting. Sometimes the beer ain't great, sometimes you think you just made a masterpiece!

    As for bottles, lots of brewers use flippies. That type of bottle in the US is generally a Grolsch- not many others are imported. Nothing wrong with them. I still use some of them but I mostly use brown longnecks. Mainly because it's just easier to stick them in a 6 pack and go. Plus, the gaskets on flippies need to be replaced periodically. I also use growlers (half gallon glass jugs) and 5 liter pony kegs. Some guys only keg their beer. Lots of options but starting off with bottles is easiest. As for saving longnecks, you can only recap non-twist tops. Twist tops won't seal right again.

    Any brew shop will sell sanitizer. Bleach works too but it's hard on the hands, smells and you have to rinse everything afterward. I've been using Steramine for years now. It's actually a bar glass sanitizer that I get from work. I like it because it's a non-rinse sanitizer. Saves me the rinse step and some time. Here's a link....

    http://steramine.com/

    Have fun!
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Holy Guacamole!

    Where I live is about 50 miles south of Reno, but only 18 south of Carson City. Wife and I have plans to spend the weekend in Reno, so I Googled brewshops in Reno, figuring to stop into one and have a brief look-see (I have already earmarked time to stop into Bizarre Guitars and Guns, and we're going to hit the new mall in Sparks where Scheel's is located) and what should I find but a place called Just Brew It in--where's the icon for drumroll?--Cartoon City! And, icing on the cake, it's still in business!:applause:

    This means that I won't have to make the 100 mile round trip. CC is the "Big City" to us rurals and we manage a visit about twice a month, not to mention that the Wife's parents live there, so...Wife can smooze with Mom and Dad and I'll go to the brewshop, which is only about seven blocks down the street from the Grumpy Old Guy Gunstore. Talk about economy of motion.

    I envy you your job at the brewpub. We've had one about seven miles from here that's been under at least five different owners, mostly because the location STINKS. The latest incarnation just went belly-up last week, about ten days from when we stopped in. The beer was actually pretty good, without that "thin" taste so many brewpubs have, at least until the equipment gets seasoned, but the food was VERY pricey and pretty mediocre. That and their location killed them.

    There's one or two in CC a little more successful but the really good ones are in Reno. I could cheerfully spend the day at Great Basin Brewery but there's that 100 mile round trip thing. However, since we're staying at Circus Circus, which is connected by mezzanine walkway to both Silver Legacy and El Dorado, I'll probably get to sneak into El Dorado's Brew Brothers.:love:

    Out here, Grolsch in the only flippy that I know of but the wife has an appointment Monday, right across from Ben's Discount Liquors. They have a rather large beer selection and we're also stopping at Total Wine on the way out of town. Their beer catalogue runs about six pages in six- or eight-point print. Maybe I can find something there.

    Also knew about that non-twist-off thing, even Mr. Beer will tell you that.

    As far as recipies, I enjoy doodling. I've managed to take Green Bean Cassarole from an also-ran side dish to one that is requested, nay, DEMANDED at every potluck I do, both by the library staff and at my church. The popcorn I make is known as "World Famous". I, having never done so before in my life, improvised a marinade last week. Using lemon juice and three different types of oil, plus various spices, I stuck some chicken breasts in there for a few hours, twenty or so minutes on the grill and they turned out so good, I was shocked. I think I'm gonna have FUN with this beer thing.

    I really like the strong, heavy, dark beers--if you can't slice it, it ain't beer. But, by the same token, I like the light, clear brews. And the stuff in between. The only things I can think of that I don't like about the whole thing is the startup costs (I saw a brew kettle for $180) and the learning curve. Those and, of course, the wait. After you get it going it turns to anticipation but until then it's, "Am I making something palatable or am I just flogging the mule?"

    Still, I'm looking forward to this little adventure. Wife'll like it, too, once it gets going. She won't have to shop for beer specials--although for a non-drinker, she's quite the beer snob.

    Seriously, though, thanks for the steer in the right direction and, boy am I ever going to bug you with questions...:jester:

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Wine is a lot easier!

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Posts: 588 Senior Member
    Dan's right about wine being easier. If you or your wife are wine drinkers you really should look into that as well. When I first started with wine I read the instructions over and over thinking something must be missing, it can't be this simple. But it is. There's no cooking with the wine- just mixing ingredients in a fermenter and wait. Transfer it a couple times and bottle. (I do a 3 stage fermentation, the wine kits generally call for a 2 stage). Plus, it's all the same equipment you use for beer, excepted a corker. Though you could bottle it like beer if you want. I usually do a 6 pack of beer bottles to a batch and the rest in wine bottles. That way I have some 2-glass servings as well for times I don't want to open a whole bottle.

    As for that $180 brew kettle..... I think something like that is only necesarry if you are doing all grain brewing. Most people start with extract brewing. Some stick with that, others move on to all grain. I do a mostly extract brew with a partial grain mash.
    Extract brewing= the grain is already malted and ready to use for brewing.
    All grain= you buy straight grain and mash it into a useable malt. This is a much more involved process. More equipment, much more time and labor.

    I'm perfectly happy doing a mostly extract brew. The quality of ingredients has really gone up in recent years. All grain has more room for error. Many home brewers I know do all grain and I honestly think I make better and more consistent beer.

    Back to that kettle- if you're doing extract brewing all you really need is a good quality stainless steel kettle with thick base, generally a 3 gallon size works. It doesn't have to be something you get in brewshop, just good quality cookware. I started out with a ceramic coated stock pot and used it for years. It's not ideal but I didn't know better. And that kind of pot is only a problem when the ceramic coating starts to chip or crack, then it can be bad for the beer. You get that stuff in your beer and/or the cheap steel under the cracked ceramic rusts and your cooking in rust.
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    shawn1172 wrote: »
    Joy of Homebrewing is generally considered the homebrewer's Bible so I always suggest starting with that then adding to your resource library as you go.

    What he said. That is THE book to have if you are interested in homebrewing.

    It is available in paperback, PDF, Kindle.... Whatever. Get the book!
    http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Homebrewing-Third-Harperresource-Book/dp/0060531053
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Posts: 18,360 Senior Member
    shawn1172 wrote: »

    Also, the book "The Joy of Homebrewing."

    You'll find that right next to "The Joy of Sex"....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    I'm not much of a wine person, more like a "whiner" (when I can't get good beer!:tissue:). Seriously, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of winemaking going on out here. I think it may have something to do with the altitude (we're at 4750 feet at my house and yeast does funny things. When I bake, I have to keep a pinch of yeast OUT of the bread and add just a little more water) and the dryness of the air. Fifteen per cent humidity is pretty wet for us and when we get to thirty or more, it can be hard to breathe the thin, saturated air. It's wetter in the winter because of the snowpack on the Sierras.

    Someone started a company called Battle Born Wines here in Gardnerville. They make wines using, wherever possible, local ingredients--yes, there's some nuts who insist on trying to grow grapes in this high desert. Once a month, there is a wine walk in what passes for "downtown" in G'ville. My wife and I went last week and I tasted Battle Born's offerings and it was plonk. Admittedly, I didn't get across the street to their actual storefront (I'll shoot for that next time) but what I tried with their label wasn't very good:zzzz:.

    For a kettle, I have a heavy bottomed stainless steel stock pot with a glass lid. I got this because, like you, my speckeled blue enamnel stock pot started to chip. That didn't make for very good spaghetti sauce!:vomit: Not quite sure what I'll do with the old one, but, packrat that I am, I still have it.

    I mentioned the book to MyWifetheLibrarian this morning. She is in charge of collection development and, wonder of wonders, she just got a bunch of new books on brewing. When I told her that this was considered the Brewer's Bible, she said, "If we don't have it, I'll have to get it, then." Gotta love it when life hands you lemonade...:love:

    My main concern is room. Where most of the condos in this complex have the furnace in a closet out back, ours is a monolith between kitchen and livingroom. Add in the laundry alcove and, well, I've seen bigger kitchens on a two-man submarine. The dining table is on the wrong side of everything if we want to watch TV while we dine (we do) so it's become sort of a catchall for things that don't have actual homes right now. I suppose I could clean things off and repurpose the area, maybe build a cabinet in which to do the fermentation and to store the bottled result...wow, this beer thing's turning into a whole lot of work:jester:!

    A few questions for starters:

    How important is darkness for the fermentation. I've been told not to mess with it at all until bottling time:nono: but a lot of beer companies make a big deal out of their brown bottles that keep the beer from becoming "sun-struck". Complete darkness, ambient light, I figure direct sunlight, especially at this altitude, is a no-no, but how dark do I REALLY have to keep it?

    How quickly do I have to get it into the refridgerator after bottling? Should I be looking at making room even before I bottle or will it sit cheerfully in a dark cabinet for a few days without going skunk?

    Seriously, guys, thanks for all the input. I'll let you know how the adventure progresses.:beer:

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    TSchub--

    Reloading is a time consuming hobby. I've made up some good loads with stuff I got at the LGS but I've had some expensive failures, too. Better to just pick a box of factory ammo at Wally World and call it good:jester::jester::jester:.

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    1911fan wrote: »
    How important is darkness for the fermentation. I've been told not to mess with it at all until bottling time:nono: but a lot of beer companies make a big deal out of their brown bottles that keep the beer from becoming "sun-struck". Complete darkness, ambient light, I figure direct sunlight, especially at this altitude, is a no-no, but how dark do I REALLY have to keep it?

    How quickly do I have to get it into the refrigerator after bottling? Should I be looking at making room even before I bottle or will it sit cheerfully in a dark cabinet for a few days without going skunk?

    Direct sunlight will turn your hops skunky. It will not affect fermentation. Keep it out of it.... Unless you like skunky beer. If you use a 5 gallon pickle bucket as a fermenter, you are golden. If you use a glass one, just keep it in a dark spot in the house or tape some wrapping paper around it. Once bottled, just keep the bottles in a cardboard box. No need to refrigerate until a couple of hours before you drink them.

    My brother is a brewer and has won national and international awards for his beer. He got his start home brewing and had me doing it for quite a while. I will do it again in the future, but it can be time consuming. Actually, I might whip up a batch of pear wine just for giggles. The problem is getting a good source of pear juice. I have done it with apple cider before and it wasn't half bad. Basically it was a few cans of store brand concentrated apple juice, water, and yeast. It can be that simple if you want it to be.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • TSchubTSchub Posts: 783 Senior Member
    I'm not saying don't do it. Heaven knows that I enjoy many hobbies that are expensive and time consuming. I just hear a lot of people say that they want to get into brewing, but after they start, it seems to lose it's appeal. Brew up some really great stuff, and I'll come over and drink a batch and tell you some hilarious stories about the brewing escapades of my friends and I.
  • TeachTeach Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Jerm, if you've ever tried any Boone's Farm wine, it's either apple or pear juice, whatever Gallo happened to be running through the crusher that day. I worked there for almost five years, and it was unreal, the thousands of tons of apples and pears we processed. It only fermented to about 8% alcohol concentration- - - -not enough sugar, so we added alcohol from the still to bring it up to 12%. Color and flavoring- - - - -presto! Wine! Boone's Farm never had a grape in it!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Jerm, if you've ever tried any Boone's Farm wine, it's either apple or pear juice, whatever Gallo happened to be running through the crusher that day. I worked there for almost five years, and it was unreal, the thousands of tons of apples and pears we processed. It only fermented to about 8% alcohol concentration- - - -not enough sugar, so we added alcohol from the still to bring it up to 12%. Color and flavoring- - - - -presto! Wine! Boone's Farm never had a grape in it!
    Jerry

    No doubt! That Boone's Farm wine has been helping young men get lucky for decades now. I can't knock it!

    I used to know a guy that is an ex-con and they used to save up their fruit punch, juice, jellies (whatever had sugar in it) then dip their socks in it to make up some "prison hooch". It would ferment and make some alcohol-- he said it would take some saving and stashing, but you could get pretty toasted from it if you had enough.

    It can be pretty elaborate or mindlessly simple to make up some sort of alcoholic beverage that is enjoyable. My brother deals with pH, water chemistry, specific gravity, alpha acids, yeast strains, and a bunch of other stuff-- but that is his job! Anymore, I just want to keep it simple or drink the fruits of his labor.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Posts: 4,997 Senior Member
    I think you guys got it pretty well covered here, but....

    DON'T EVER BUY THE MR.BEER KIT!!! EVER. EVER EVER EVER EVER!

    In fact, dont EVER consider an extract beer. Waste of time, money and space because you think you're just "testing" the waters.

    The Joy is a great book, but like all great "bibles"....the info is becoming dated slowly but surely.

    ANYONE interested in starting out brewing beer these days, do yourself a favor, look to our Down Under friends for inspiration and read up on "Brew In A Bag".

    Full mash, all grain, REAL brewing with ONE pot, ONE burner, and just the usual fermentation tools. Best part is you can do a finer crush on your grains to make up for the lost efficiency, so you can actually get back up to 75-85% efficiency.

    Buy your bulk supplies online from places like Austin Homebrew and Northern Brewer (tip, use paypal for Austin, they still refuse to admit and fix their credit card thief problem and about 50 people have had their cards jacked, Paypal is safe though) and stick to your local shops for yeast and thats about it. Locals always over charge like crazy for grains and hops, especially hops. They like to pretend the hops shortage is still going on and justify the gouging in prices that is STILL happening years later.


    Jerm,
    You got one of them hippy stores around you? Whole Foods, Sunflower, Sprouts? Or even an organic section in your local kroger? If so, most sell J.W. Knudsens juice, which are no sugar added no preservative 100% juices that you can use. The pear juice is weak on flavor, you'd almost have to make it a berry-perry or cider-perry blend (for those wondering, "perry" is the correct term for hard pear cider). Or blend it with a mead, a pear melomel would be pretty dang awesome!
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Okay, I get the part that Mr. Beer is a bust. I wonder if their two-gallon kegs with a spigot might be helpful in the bottling process. They sell those alone for $10 and they also offer a long tube-like item that seems to let you fill the bottles from the bottom up. I know that sounds weird, but back in the day, I used to live next door to an old-guy tavern. They would fill a half gallon glass orange juice jug for $0.75. The only problem was that the bartender had to have patience when filling or you'd end up with about a quart of foam. Seems like this device might alleviate the problem somewhat.

    Just a thought.

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Posts: 4,997 Senior Member
    a proper bottling bucket (ale pail) is about the same price and is a full 6 gallons
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Posts: 588 Senior Member
    A brew kit will generally come with a bottlling bucket that holds the full batch and has a spigot at the bottom. It should also come with rubber tubing and a rigid tube with a spring loaded bottling tip. This is used by pushing the tip of the tube against the bottom of the bottle to the let the beer flow. When you lift it, releasing the pressure on the tip, the flow stops for you to take the tube out and move it to the next bottle.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Posts: 4,997 Senior Member
    I hate bottling. Life became so much easier with corny kegs lol
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Again, thanks.

    I didn't make it by the brewshop...the one and only thing I failed to accomplish this weekend. We did, however end up with a Smith and Wesson Model 10-8 4" Heavy Barrel in .38 Special for which we paid $300.

    The brewshop will probably be there when I get into Carson City sometime in before Labor Day.

    Just thought the two gallon size might be a little more convenient to horse around...the 6g buckets HAVE to weigh fifty pounds.

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Posts: 4,997 Senior Member
    Its the same amount of effort to brew and more importantly, clean, 5 gallons worth of stuff then it is 2 gallons. Plus, pretty much every recipe you'll find is for 5 or 10 gallon batches, so unless you were doing 2.5 gallon batches (and 3 gallon carboys cost as much as 5 gallon carboys) 2 gallons would require a lot of math and very odd weights of stuff you need to buy, you'll end up with lots of odds and ends as far as grain and hops
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Ah, yes, the old "How many cups in a gallon?" trick. Now, take those results and compute ratios in pounds and ounces avoirdupois...

    Well, at this stage, no question is a dumb question, especially if it'll keep me from making costly mistakes.

    I'll have the wife bring home the "bible" today. By the way, how's "Brewing for Dummies" as a resource?

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Posts: 588 Senior Member
    I don't know about Brewing for Dummies but I've got a link for you. This is a brewshop I used to get my stuff from (don't live near it anymore). Good guys and they have some basic how-to videos, instructions, Q&A, etc. on their site that could be helpful.
    http://www.kennebechomebrew.com/index.html
  • 1911fan1911fan Posts: 193 Member
    Thanks, Shawn--

    I went to the site briefly and will probably bookmark it. As I said, my next move depends on my upcoming visit to Just Brew It in Carson City. That and my almost non-existant income...

    On a side note, I took a peek into Ben's Discount Liquors this weekend. Half liter Grolsch flippies seem to around ten or eleven dollars a four-pack. I've gotta find a cheaper source. Hold the presses, this just in--Total wine in Reno has it for $6 a four-pack. $36 a case for bottles (AND you get to drink the beer) sounds a whole lot better than $60+.

    Guess we'll just have to wait and see...

    ed
    Fat, white, sixty, unemployed and just DIGGIN' on this "Change" thing!
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Jerm,
    You got one of them hippy stores around you? Whole Foods, Sunflower, Sprouts? Or even an organic section in your local kroger? If so, most sell J.W. Knudsens juice, which are no sugar added no preservative 100% juices that you can use. The pear juice is weak on flavor, you'd almost have to make it a berry-perry or cider-perry blend (for those wondering, "perry" is the correct term for hard pear cider). Or blend it with a mead, a pear melomel would be pretty dang awesome!

    I just picked up a six pack of Woodchuck "pear" flavored to do a bit of research. Not bad but I like it tarter. For juice, I found Gerber (yea, the baby food people) 100% pear juice. All it is is pear juice fortified with a bit of vitamin C. $2.29 a quart. That would be $46 for 5 gallons. Not too bad I guess. I think I will add 5 pounds of honey to give the alcohol and flavor a little boost along with some citric acid to make it more tart. While I am at it, I might as well start a poor boy cider with just store brand frozen apple juice and water to show everyone how easy it can really be.

    I will start a thread when I get it rolling and let you all know how it goes.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    1911fan wrote: »
    On a side note, I took a peek into Ben's Discount Liquors this weekend. Half liter Grolsch flippies seem to around ten or eleven dollars a four-pack. I've gotta find a cheaper source. Hold the presses, this just in--Total wine in Reno has it for $6 a four-pack. $36 a case for bottles (AND you get to drink the beer) sounds a whole lot better than $60+.

    Michigan has a 10 cent bottle deposit. When I was collecting mine, I would go to the party stores that sold Grolsh and buy the bottles from them for 10 cents each. A case of bottles for $2.40. Hella deal there!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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