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Semi auto vs pump action 12 ga

thebugmanthebugman New MemberPosts: 7 New Member
I originally posted a couple months ago about getting a tac shot gun and the basic consensus was to get either a mossberg 500 or Remington 870 and trick out to my liking, I didn't find out anything about if pump is better than semi auto. I have come across a semi auto saiga and was wondering if they are any good. Thanks in advanced
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Replies

  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    I have shot one quite a bit. It works as advertised, as to being tactical I'm still trying to figure that one out. Just pay $200.00 more than what it cost and that will classify it as tactical.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    For a self-defense shotgun, a pump is the way to go. You can run ANY ammo through it without worrying about it having a stoppage due to not enough gas or recoil impulse (because you're hand cycling it.) In some ways the manual of arms for a pump is a little easier to run, and you can keep it with an empty chamber and loaded magazine and get it ready to go much easier.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,145 Senior Member
    While I use 1187's for bird culls and all my shotgunning, I would prefer to use a pump action for SD.
    To switch out a dud round, or to deal with a malfunction in my view is much easier with a pump action. With a semi, you have to take your right hand off the trigger to pull the bolt back, with a pump, it is your left hand doing the work.
    The only thing I would advise is that if you have a pump action, dont be gentle with it when you work the action.
    About the only problem you may have is shortstroking the pump if you are in a 'stress' situation, so it pays to practice.
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    The Saiga 12 will work with just about any load out there - certainly with any and all self-defense loadings from BB shot through every size of buckshot. My own preference for indoor self defense is BB or #4 Buck - whichever is on sale when I'm buying.

    For sheer firepower, nothing compares with a Saiga 12 fitted with a 20 round drum magazine. Can you say "metalstorm?!" If that's a bit too heavy for you, magazines in many sizes are avaialble. For sheer reliability, simplicity, ease of maintenance, disassembly and cleaning, nothing compares with a Kalashnikov action. For options and customization, the Saiga 12 is unsurpassed. An endless array of stocks, rails, grips, and magazines awaits your fancy.

    Regarding pump shotguns -they work, and that's it. So do automatics -in fact they work just as well if not better and they do something pumps do not do - unless you spend a mint on a special shock-absorber stock - they have reduced recoil. Nothing is more important to a fast second shot than recovery from the first shot, and recoil is the principle thing that must be overcome. Pumps can bind when worked in a panic situation, and it is not unheard of that the operator fails to fully retract or fully re-extend the forearm in a high pressure situation. The autoloader does these distracting tasks (potentially disabling tasks) for you.

    My current SD/HD shotgun is a Remington 1100, tricked and pimped out to look like something issued by the Klingon Empire. Reliable as sunrise with any and every shell I care to load it with. But as soon as I can afford it (as soon as prices return to normal) a Saiga 12 is on my short list. Just for fun, check out the zillion Saiga 12 videos on YouTube - see for yourself what that baby can do.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    I am with Horselips on this one. Just like you would load your 1911 with ammo it prefers, you should do the same with your shotgun. The premise of leaving a round unchambered in a pump is silly. Do you leave your semi auto handgun unchambered? I sure don't. When you NEED it, you want to have to do as little as possible to be prepared. Taking off the safety is plenty.

    Reliability? I guarantee you there isn't a pump that can perform any more reliably than my old 1100. There is certainly nothing wrong with a pump, but don't try to tell me it's more reliable.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Y'all who advocate semiautos: how well do yours function with some of the new low-recoil buckshot loads? The ones that allow a faster follow-up shot and in many shotguns pattern better than standard buckshot loads. They're becoming police standard. And do yours have the short defensive barrel or a long one? My 11-87, extremely reliable, won't reliably cycle them with a 21" barrel (26" or 28" no problem, but that's not an ideal defensive barrel) so in HD/SD configuration, I have to use standard recoil buckshot. That's all well and good if I'm working it, my follow-up shots are slightly slower, but if my wife tries to handle the shotgun, she's going to have issues with recoil.

    OTOH, if I had a pump, I could stoke it with low-recoil buck and she could run it. That is the advantage of a pump shotgun. As for keeping it unloaded: I believe many shotguns use a hammer blocking safety. I don't trust those things like I do a sear blocking safety, such as is found on my 1911 or any decent handgun and several rifles.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,297 Senior Member
    Y'all who advocate semiautos: how well do yours function with some of the new low-recoil buckshot loads?

    My Saiga will. But I retrofitted it with an autoregulating gas plug. But- Autos USUALLY have lighter recoil than a pump due to the gas system taking up some of the recoil. So, in theory, you don't need the lower recoil stuff.

    However, my Saiga is more of a range toy. It's too heavy and unwieldy and large for home defense- especially with the 20 round drum. For HD, I am currently using an AR Pistol, and the wife usually uses a .30 Carbine.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Ah, but practicing with buckshot can get pricey. To get something similar to the low-recoil stuff, you can get a case of heavy dove loads or something similar for less money.

    That being said, my HD long gun is an AR.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    thebugman wrote: »
    I originally posted a couple months ago about getting a tac shot gun and the basic consensus was to get either a mossberg 500 or Remington 870 and trick out to my liking, I didn't find out anything about if pump is better than semi auto. I have come across a semi auto saiga and was wondering if they are any good. Thanks in advanced

    Gimme a pump gun in that situation. It's like a revolver, there's less to go wrong. And you can pump it about as fast as the typical Semi Auto will function.

    Also, you can find plenty of good Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s in pawn shops all over this country for a very decent price.

    But whatever you get, make sure it's reliable before trusting your life to it. Even some pumps can have issues. Just check it out for proper functioning and if it has a problem either get one that works or find a good gun smith to fix the problem.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    The Saiga 12 will work with just about any load out there - certainly with any and all self-defense loadings from BB shot through every size of buckshot. My own preference for indoor self defense is BB or #4 Buck - whichever is on sale when I'm buying.

    For sheer firepower, nothing compares with a Saiga 12 fitted with a 20 round drum magazine. Can you say "metalstorm?!" If that's a bit too heavy for you, magazines in many sizes are avaialble. For sheer reliability, simplicity, ease of maintenance, disassembly and cleaning, nothing compares with a Kalashnikov action. For options and customization, the Saiga 12 is unsurpassed. An endless array of stocks, rails, grips, and magazines awaits your fancy.

    Regarding pump shotguns -they work, and that's it. So do automatics -in fact they work just as well if not better and they do something pumps do not do - unless you spend a mint on a special shock-absorber stock - they have reduced recoil. Nothing is more important to a fast second shot than recovery from the first shot, and recoil is the principle thing that must be overcome. Pumps can bind when worked in a panic situation, and it is not unheard of that the operator fails to fully retract or fully re-extend the forearm in a high pressure situation. The autoloader does these distracting tasks (potentially disabling tasks) for you.

    My current SD/HD shotgun is a Remington 1100, tricked and pimped out to look like something issued by the Klingon Empire. Reliable as sunrise with any and every shell I care to load it with. But as soon as I can afford it (as soon as prices return to normal) a Saiga 12 is on my short list. Just for fun, check out the zillion Saiga 12 videos on YouTube - see for yourself what that baby can do.

    All this talk about using this or that load for self defense is fine hypothetically. But if i have a shotgun dedicated to self defense, I don't want to have to worry about the load. I want it to fire reliably any shell of the proper gauge. You can overthink this stuff real fast. But to be realistic, a burgler or any bad guy breaking in in the middle of the night ain't gonna know the difference when you shoot him inside 5 yards (15 feet, or about the size of a normal living room) with buck shot or number eight shot. The main thing is that it goes boom every time you pull the trigger. As for recovery after a shot, there isn't enough difference between the recoil of a Semi and a pump to where practice won't get you on target. I still say, gimme a pump.

    Now for dove hunting, my other favorite sport, I like a SA better. It just gives me one less thing to remember to do when shooting it. And, if it jams, so what. Then I have another semi interesting story about the one that got away!!!

    :jester:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,462 Senior Member
    My 930 has shot anything I have put in it. Including low brass target loads. Never a malfunction ether.

    But beside my bed is an AR. Why you ask? Because Biden said to get a shotgun.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    My 930 has shot anything I have put in it. Including low brass target loads. Never a malfunction ether.

    But beside my bed is an AR. Why you ask? Because Biden said to get a shotgun.

    Well that sinched it for me then. The shotguns will stay in the safe!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 846 Senior Member
    I've yet to meet the pump shotgun I couldn't get to bind, mostly through holding the pump too tight towards the rear while in battery and then combined with a slight cant on the pump and 9/10 times I can lock one up. I know what I do wrong and have remedied these habits but in the adrenaline buzz of a SD situation I wouldn't want to have to worry about it. This goes for 870's and Mavericks right down to el cheapo chicom copies. I would love to be taught properly how to run a pump-action for SD, and while I love the idea of the reliability of a manually operated action, for myself I'd go with a semi or (perish the thought) any good SxS. I've yet to meet anyone else who has similar problems to mine with pumps though so I think I'm the problem in the equation :conehead:

    That said if I did use a gun for HD it would be my M1 carbine so the point is moot for me. For a defensive shotgun that could be used by a women though I love the idea of a 20 gauge Saiga loaded hot, with magnum shells I don't feel it loses much to a 12 gauge
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    waipapa13 wrote: »
    I've yet to meet the pump shotgun I couldn't get to bind, mostly through holding the pump too tight towards the rear while in battery and then combined with a slight cant on the pump and 9/10 times I can lock one up. I know what I do wrong and have remedied these habits but in the adrenaline buzz of a SD situation I wouldn't want to have to worry about it. This goes for 870's and Mavericks right down to el cheapo chicom copies. I would love to be taught properly how to run a pump-action for SD, and while I love the idea of the reliability of a manually operated action, for myself I'd go with a semi or (perish the thought) any good SxS. I've yet to meet anyone else who has similar problems to mine with pumps though so I think I'm the problem in the equation :conehead:

    That said if I did use a gun for HD it would be my M1 carbine so the point is moot for me. For a defensive shotgun that could be used by a women though I love the idea of a 20 gauge Saiga loaded hot, with magnum shells I don't feel it loses much to a 12 gauge

    I guess it boils down to learned habit. I was raised on a pump gun. My dad had a model 31 Remington, which was the forrunner to the 870. Remington quit making it because it got too expensive to make due to all the machining required. This was before the CNC lathes and such, back when there was one man, one lathe and each lathe needed the attention of a man to itself. And that man had better have been a skilled Machinist. Now days one man can probably manage half a shop full of lathes. But that's another story.

    As I said, I was raised with a pump shotgun and I never had one fail unless it had a broken or worn part, which any action gun can have.

    Once I was hunting geese with that old model 31, and about 5 birds got off the roost and glided across a wide creek where I was on the other side concealed by some quiesatch brush. I shot and downed one of that bunch. I pumped the gun ejecting the spent shell and about 50 more got up and glided right over me. I went to shoot and nothing. I tried to jack another shell in the chamber but no go. It wouldn't close. I stood up quite pissed off and saw a shiny sliver of metal fall into the grass. I tried to find it but to know avail. I knew it had to be part of the gun, but I didn't know which part. After that the gun would shoot, but you had to cant it to the right for the empty to fall out when you ejected it. I took this gun to a local gun smith, actually he was just a shooter that dabbled in gun smithing and not really a professional. He said he took it apart and cleaned it but couldn't find anything wrong. I knew better but couldn't pin point the problem without taking the gun apart. Well, about 10 years later I did just that. I found that the inside extractor had broken off and that was the shiny piece I saw fall in the grass and never could find that morning. I knew another gun smith that was said to be more knowledgeable. He had to make a new ejector, but it worked.

    Another time, one of my uncles from East Texas was down on New Years and we got invited to go hunting on McCullouh oil tool's lease down at Indianola. I borrowed two guns, a Remington model 50 and a Stevens pump. My dad used the Remington and I used the Stevens and we let my uncle use the Model 31. The old Stevens pump I borrowed was well worn and I got one shot at a goose and it jammed. When I pulled back on the pump handle it let a shell out of the tube magazine that got caught under the bolt before it got far enough back to eject the spent shell. I had to push the unshot shell back into the magazine against the spring pressure. This took some time because of a lack of proper tools in the field. Bye that time the hunt was over. I was pissed again.

    But I have owned both an 870 and a Mossberg 500, and neither one ever let me down.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • PlinkingSamPlinkingSam New Member Posts: 14 New Member
    What does Joe Biden recommend? :)
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 902 Senior Member
    I used to have a Winchester 1200 Pump .12 ga. that was the slickest pump I ever shot. I used to hunt grouse, rabbits and pheasant with it and never had any malfunction. You could pump it fire it like a semi auto, the pump action was so smooth. Too bad that someone broke and stole it along with several other firearms, never to be recovered. I also has an old Winchester Mdl. 97 pump with exposed hammer that was a nice shotgun for hunting, but with a 30" bbl. too long for HD, it also was stolen in the break in. I bought a Winchester Defender .12 ga. with 18" bbl.and extended magazine that works fine for me with anything I want to load.

    My only semi-auto is a Benelli M-1 Field Mdl. w/22" bbl. that I am sure would also be good , if I wanted to use it for HD as it has been very reliable with all types of loads.

    In my location I do not see the need for a rifle vs. shotgun, but if that were the case I am sure I could find something that would suffice.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,958 Senior Member
    If it helps anyone, my wife and I settled on a 20 ga Mossy 500 for SD. My wife can handle the recoil, and either one of us can repeat shoot it FAST. I keep it loaded "cruiser ready" with #3 buck.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • temmitemmi Member Posts: 230 Member
    For a self-defense shotgun, a pump is the way to go. You can run ANY ammo through it without worrying about it having a stoppage due to not enough gas or recoil impulse (because you're hand cycling it.) In some ways the manual of arms for a pump is a little easier to run, and you can keep it with an empty chamber and loaded magazine and get it ready to go much easier.

    I believe this... with one exception

    The Benelli M4

    My son has this as his duity Shotgun and it will get the job done.

    but

    My Nova HD Shotgun will do most of the same stuff at 1/3 the price and atad slower

    T
  • cappy54cappy54 Member Posts: 269 Member
    mossberg 930spx will eat anythig you feed it we have shot up too 500 rounds of all kind thru it and it worked every time without a cleaning
  • steffen19ksteffen19k Member Posts: 255 Member
    orchidman wrote: »
    With a semi, you have to take your right hand off the trigger to pull the bolt back, with a pump, it is your left hand doing the work.

    Learn how to make your foregrip hand do all the work anyways, and your trigger finger never has to be that far from the trigger. I always use my fore grip hand to cycle weapons. ALWAYS. Of course, I shoot lefty to begin with. :usa:
    Here is everything I know about war: Someone wins, Someone loses, and nothing is ever the same again.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,386 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Reliability? I guarantee you there isn't a pump that can perform any more reliably than my old 1100. There is certainly nothing wrong with a pump, but don't try to tell me it's more reliable.

    The issue is not the firearms, but rather the HUGE variability of shotgun ammunition. One of the cool things about a shotgun shell is that it can be filled with any combination projectile, wad, and powder that will fit in the available space. As long as the round fits through the feeding apparatus and doesn't blow the gun up, any shotgun can FIRE it, but as the pressure and recoil can vary so greatly, whether or not a semi-auto can CYCLE it becomes the question.

    I tend to liken semi-auto shotguns to expensive sports cars - if you run them on high octane gas, synthetic motor oil, and very specific tires, you can cruise with top down and Ray Bans on and all will be right with the world. Make too big a departure from that and things can get questionable. The pump action shotgun is like the army deuce-and-a-half. While they may not be as fun to drive, you can run them indefinitely on hangover pee.

    The question you then need to ask yourself is whether or not that versatility of ammuntion is important to you. If you have a ready supply of stuff you know your autoloader will run on, and have no intention of shooting anything else, there is nothing wrong with them. OTOH, if you want the ability to shoot less lethal rounds, want to shoot whatever random ammo comes your way, or tend to run your guns with lighter loads to the point of getting REALLY dirty, a semi-auto WILL disappoint you eventually.

    My own experience with the Benelli M4 - SOME of them have trouble with SOME of the 1-ounce-at-1200 fps low recoil slugs, but somewhere between those loads and low recoil 9-pellet-(ounce-and-a-quarter)-at-1200fps 00 buck loads, the guns gets solidly between their "minimum" and "maximum" pressure points, the failures to cycle disappear, and the guns become unstoppable. My intention here is not to slight Benelli (who builds an awesome beast of a shotgun) or the ammunition manufacturers (who are trying to cater to the needs of different operators), but to illustrate the physics problems of trying to build an autoloader that can run on both super-light trap loads and magnum slugs suitable for hunting cape buffalo.

    The pump gun doesn't care.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    I prefer a pump for the simple reason it's what I grew up with. Hand me an auto and I'd shoot once then wonder what the problem was that the slide wouldn't rack. I've done it before.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • JLDickmonJLDickmon Senior Member Posts: 1,726 Senior Member
    Winchester 1300 NWTF
    stoked with #4 buckshot
    Never laugh at your wife's choices.
    You are one of them.
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    After seein so many Saigas FAIL on 3 gun matches, plain ones and heavily "improved" ones I personally stay he hell away from them and more for a defense gun, now we have to shoot 7-8 shot on 3 gun matches and folks say that with 00 and slugs they work fine so your mileage may vary.

    I shoot at the matches an FN SLP semiauto and it has jammed a couple of times on me but this has been my fault due to poor maintenance, still seems, most folks claim this at least, that a pump will not fail you...
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • GTX63GTX63 New Member Posts: 2 New Member
    What does Joe Biden recommend? :)

    The "Jed Clampett special".

    870 Remington is my choice but a Norinco 97 that you can slam fire is a hoot.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    JLDickmon wrote: »
    Winchester 1300 NWTF
    stoked with #4 buckshot

    Good choice. I would feel well defended with a 1300. Any chance of getting a pic of that one?
    Regarding the pumps being more reliable thing, When I introduced my wife to the 870, she had some real issues with short stroking and the empty hull didn't want to fully eject. She's gotten better with practice. That will never happen to me because, A) It never has and B) I've been shooting 870s for over 40 years
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • ArtemisArtemis Member Posts: 124 Member
    We have a 12G Mossberg 500 (on FAC). I prefer it to autoloaders because it is basic and reliable..and I can use it as a club when I run out of cartridges. Although self defence is not particularly relevant in my country.
    My experience of autoloaders is they can jam too easily, foul quickly and that is just embarrassing they are a PITA to keep clean and in my neanderthal hands, just feel too light and dainty.
    Even my wife who is not much over 5ft tall has mastered it for practical shooting; she hasn't the strength to shoulder it so she tucks it under her elbow to shoot. What I have noticed is that to reload she pushes the whole gun forward and keeps the slide stationary I never taught her this but she says it feels right and she can consistently hit the target even at 50yds.
    Who I am and What I do - artemissawfly.wordpress.com
    Where to find me - https://www.facebook.com/artemisengineering.uk
    What I'm doing right now on Indiegogo.com - Artemis Sawfly Sporting Rifle
  • BeeBeebrainBeeBeebrain New Member Posts: 9 New Member
    Razorbacker ASKS: ".... Any chance of getting a pic of that one?"


    Winchester website at http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/historic-detail.asp?family=012C&mid=512907

    We have the Winchester 1300 Defender with rear pistol grip for home protection. Quite a crowd gathered behind the Business Manager (aka -- wife) at the range while she unloaded several mags from the hip -- they were impressed by a 5'2" female keeping "on target!" We load the first two rounds with birdshot, followed by four rounds of 00-buckshot, and then two with slugs.


    Carry On!
    Gary
    ><>
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,543 Senior Member
    I have the same Winchester 1300; I added an AR-style grip & collapsible stock to it to increase maneuverability. Works great, never had an issue with anything I've put in it.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    My shotgun that stays upstairs is a Remington 870; the one I occasionally shoot skeet with is an H&R Excell auto (a Turkish Franchi copy) that was recommended to me by a former member here who is a good friend and whom I hold in high regard.

    Both have worked every time, but while I absolutely trust his opinion for a game gun, I'll stick with the tried & true pump for the homestead, thank you.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
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