Citizenship rights after a year?

agewonagewon Senior MemberPosts: 655 Senior Member
Before I rant, If like to state that both my parents were legal aliens. My father had fled Spain during the Franco period to Argentina, and after marrying my mother, they both emigrated, legally to the US. My father immediately gained citizenship but my mother lived in the states for 30 years before becoming a citizen.
Now for the rant; why does this DB not get treated as a enemy combatant? I understand he lived here for ten years, but he was only a citizen for less than a year. It saddens me to think that for all the vets and current who have served our country, because they love their country, have to now hope we can build a "case" against this person who obviously hates us so much that he aligns himself with the people or tactics used by terrorists.
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,115 Senior Member
    Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Eric Rudolph were born here, bombed stuff here, and were treated as criminals. When you consider that terrorist acts, be they foreign or domestic, are just as much (if not more) about a political statement as they are about hurting folks, treating them as an enemy combatant gives them some of the validity that they are actually craving. In my opinion, we're better off treating them as criminals and paying no heed to their ideology, at least not in a court of law.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,075 Senior Member
    Yep.....what he said. Whether he was a citizen for 6 months or 6 years...he's a citizen....and unless something goes VERY wrong, it won't keep a needle out of his arm....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Senior Member Posts: 2,725 Senior Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.

    The Miranda rights would do nothing more, in this case, than to delay catching possible accomplices. He was seen on tape with the bombs, had incriminating evidence at his house and on his persons, so it should be a slam dunk case. However I'm finding very hard to abide by the fact he is a citizen. One year ago he would have been considered a foreign terrorist and shipped to a base for interrogation, but instead, he passed a civil exam and received a piece of paper that entitled him to rights that He doesn't deserve considering what he has done.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Unfortunately, we can't deny him citizenship retroactively. He could have been declared an "enemy combatant" if the government hadn't lost its manhood and charged him in the federal court system. Once that was done, it became mandatory that he got mirandized. We can't have it both ways!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,075 Senior Member
    Just a note....this conversation is moot...14 hours into his interrogation by the FBI, a Federal Judge and two lawyers blew in and read him his rights... now he will bargain what he knows for his life.

    Actually, were I the prosecutor I'd tell him I didn't care what he knows and that no matter what he has to offer he's gonna die....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    :agree:
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,737 Senior Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.

    Richard Jewell. Everybody KNEW he was guilty. The FBI told us it was true. The press reported it over and over.

    Oh wait, they were wrong. He was innocent.

    THIS IS WHY WE HAVE DUE PROCESS!!!!
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Just a note....this conversation is moot...14 hours into his interrogation by the FBI, a Federal Judge and two lawyers blew in and read him his rights... now he will bargain what he knows for his life.

    Actually, were I the prosecutor I'd tell him I didn't care what he knows and that no matter what he has to offer he's gonna die....

    I don't get the whole hubbub of not reading him his rights. I seriously doubt he's never seen an episode of any procedural police drama and didn't know his rights. He was either going to talk or not talk. Not reading him his rights is just a federal power trip and sends a message that the rest of us should take heed of: "your rights only exist when we tell you they exist and we can revoke them at any time if we feel like it"
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Yep.....what he said. Whether he was a citizen for 6 months or 6 years...he's a citizen....and unless something goes VERY wrong, it won't keep a needle out of his arm....

    Jay, you can bet that with 3 appointed public defenders looking at this as a stepping stone...something probably will go wrong. He was just read his rights by the DOJ & a judge at bedside. Right after which, he stopped talking. Holder is screwing up this prosecution big-time.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.

    Woodsrunner, are you forgetting we have Eric Holder as Attorney General, and Barack Obummer as our...er....president? That sure ain't happening.
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.

    The Miranda rights would do nothing more, in this case, than to delay catching possible accomplices. He was seen on tape with the bombs, had incriminating evidence at his house and on his persons, so it should be a slam dunk case. However I'm finding very hard to abide by the fact he is a citizen. One year ago he would have been considered a foreign terrorist and shipped to a base for interrogation, but instead, he passed a civil exam and received a piece of paper that entitled him to rights that He doesn't deserve considering what he has done.
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Sorry for the repost.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,431 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Unfortunately, we can't deny him citizenship retroactively. He could have been declared an "enemy combatant" if the government hadn't lost its manhood and charged him in the federal court system. Once that was done, it became mandatory that he got mirandized. We can't have it both ways!
    Jerry

    It is not mandatory to be read the miranda. That is a falsehood. Of course, if you are not read them, nothing you say can (should) be used against you.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,115 Senior Member
    Yep. Something that was pointed out was that Miranda doesn't grant you rights, it just informs you of them. Rights are still your rights, whether informed of them or not. It's up to the State to recognize them.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • RimfireRimfire Senior Member Posts: 807 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Richard Jewell. Everybody KNEW he was guilty. The FBI told us it was true. The press reported it over and over.

    Oh wait, they were wrong. He was innocent.

    THIS IS WHY WE HAVE DUE PROCESS!!!!

    Excellent example.

    Guilty by Media works in the court of public opinion. This is the same Media that was putting the screws to us, wrongly, only the day before. Or do you all forget that easily.

    The guy is a citizen, let him have his day in court.
    G&A Forum Member since: October 2000; Life Member: GOA, IWLA, NRA, & Escapees.
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Unfortunately, we can't deny him citizenship retroactively. He could have been declared an "enemy combatant" if the government hadn't lost its manhood and charged him in the federal court system. Once that was done, it became mandatory that he got mirandized. We can't have it both ways!
    Jerry

    I was under the impression that citizens could not be declared enemy combatants.
    So why wasn't indefinite detention used? Is it because Of the overwhelming media coverage, that they were afraid it would cause further controversy?
    My point is that once he was Mirandized, he zipped his lip, and we are basically at his mercy for information.
  • damnthingdamnthing Member Posts: 32 Member
    I agree wholeheartedly that Subject #2's 5th Amendment Rights should be taken away. After all, it's not like he's a real Amurican, am I right?

    5th Amendment: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[1]

    On the other hand; How Dare Those Gun Control Libtards Try To Take Away Our 2nd Amendment Rights! Am I right?
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    Here is the thing- anything that they got without the Miranda warning cannot be used in court. Big whoop. They already have the evidence to give him the needle for the bombing, shooting two cops, running over his brother, etc... The Miranda warning means nothing to him being convicted at this point.

    HOWEVER, what the FBI was after was the evidence of a further conspiracy, a network of terrorists, future bombings. But that should not matter either since Big Sis Napolitano told us these guys are totally lone wolves... srsly. C'mon guys, there is no way there was a wider network of sleeper cells- don't you trust what the Obama admin tells us about national security?

    I mean, they knew within SECONDS that Benghazi was about some movie no one ever saw... and the guy that made the movie is still in jail.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    SECONDS that Benghazi was about some movie no one ever saw... and the guy that made the movie is still in jail.

    Is he really?!

    OK, surely this guy did SOMEthing.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    It doesn't matter whether he was or was not a citizen of the U.S. The 5th Amendment says 'person' twice with nary a peep about being a citizen. If you're a citizen of the U.S., or a visitor, or resident alien, or if you sneaked in the back door, the 5th applies equally. A right for some but not for all is no right at all. It's something we fought a war over a little over 230 years ago.

    It's already been said, there's enough evidence against him to take him to Fed Court, try, convict, and give him the needle. And there's the high probability that his lawyers will try to cut a deal to give up a lot of information to get the death penalty taken off the plate and life without parole substituted. Once he sees the probability of the needle, he may chicken out and squeal like a pig for the chance to live. And if the Fed prosecutors are worth spit, they will set that information bar very high.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,431 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Here is the thing- anything that they got without the Miranda warning cannot be used in court. Big whoop. They already have the evidence to give him the needle for the bombing, shooting two cops, running over his brother, etc... The Miranda warning means nothing to him being convicted at this point.

    Exactly. They had no obligation to read him the Miranda. He was fried before he opened his mouth.

    Because they had so much evidence against him already, they should have never read it to him. He clammed up after they did. They may not of been able to use his statements against him, but, if there had been others involved they could have pursued those leads and investigated/arrested further. If he doesn't talk for fear of incrimination, they get nothing.

    They dropped the ball reading him the Miranda.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Amazing how ardent we are about defending our second amendment rights, yet how quick we are to deny rights to other persons.

    All it takes is an unpopular group to get us all on board. Those of you who would take away rights, remember who it is you're granting this power to:

    The same damn government that we're all convinced is coming for our guns!!!

    Is my fellow citizen this stupid, this blind? Forbid it, Almighty God.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,115 Senior Member
    This guy's a suspected terrorist. He doesn't deserve any rights.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,658 Senior Member
    They could have legally held him without charging him for 30 days, during which time they could have questioned him daily, using normal, legal interrogation methods. After that, habeas corpus kicks in. That is the same treatment any citizen can expect, if he doesn't invoke his right to council. He would have likely continued to spill his guts for days if they hadn't Mirandized him. This is according to Lindsey Graham - not my favorite Republican, but a pretty good lawyer.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,431 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Amazing how ardent we are about defending our second amendment rights, yet how quick we are to deny rights to other persons.

    All it takes is an unpopular group to get us all on board. Those of you who would take away rights, remember who it is you're granting this power to:

    The same damn government that we're all convinced is coming for our guns!!!

    Is my fellow citizen this stupid, this blind? Forbid it, Almighty God.

    Not being read the Miranda has nothing to do with denying him his rights. It only makes his statements inadmissible during his trial to convict him.

    As I posted earlier, being read your Miranda rights is not mandatory.

    His statements are not needed during trial because there is already a crap ton of evidence against him.

    Just so you know.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    Not being read the Miranda has nothing to do with denying him his rights. It only makes his statements inadmissible during his trial to convict him.

    As I posted earlier, being read your Miranda rights is not mandatory.

    His statements are not needed during trial because there is already a crap ton of evidence against him.

    Just so you know.

    I'm talking about those who say he deserves NONE of the protections of our Constitution. I've heard "ship him to Gitmo" and "he's only been a citizen for a year" and "treat him as an enemy combatant".

    Not talking just about Miranda.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Is he really?!

    OK, surely this guy did SOMEthing.

    The guy who made the offensive movie was arrested for something completely unrelated. I don't remember what exactly it was, but he was a pretty shady character.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • GuardrailGuardrail New Member Posts: 26 New Member
    Let me point something out.......

    Treat this as a criminal, read him his Miranda Rights, and he shuts up immediately making it extremely difficult for the investigators to put the pieces of the puzzle togather. Treat him as a Terrorist, which he is, and run him down to Gitmo where a little waterboarding and sodium penathol will gleen everything he knows about the terrorists organization if, in fact, he knows anything.

    And you could be next.

    We don't want to give an inch on the 2nd amendment because of the slippery slope we start down. You can't pick and choose the parts of the constitution you want upheld. It's all or nothing.

    Guardrail
  • Lynx0849Lynx0849 New Member Posts: 17 New Member
    This is all interesting but he talked plenty the day after being charged. Now he is residing at a federal medical detention facility down the road a little from here.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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