Know thy enemy, worthwile read on the growing gun control movement

alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior MemberPosts: 8,580 Senior Member
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113292/nras-end-real-gun-control-movement-has-arrived#

This article will probably make most of you want to puke, but it's worth trying to hold it down long enough to get through it. The general thesis which I unfortunately agree with (think is true, not like) is that post Sandy Hook there has been a major shift in the gun control movement. Prior to Sandy Hook I was convinced that for all intents and purposes we had pretty much won and that most gun control was DOA. Democratic politicians were scared of a repeat of '94 and so while they may give lip service to their base there wasn't much real risk. Post SH though there has been new life breathed into the gun control movement with lots of new and staunch supporters (mostly middle aged mothers) putting real pressure on politicians. Their primary strategy appears to be to convince politicians that it's ok to go against the NRA and gun owners and that it's not as dangerous as they had previously thought. Clearly we need to prove them wrong. My previous votes for Obama and other democrats were under the former paradigm where I did not believe there was much risk of anything getting passed. Under the new paradigm I believe the risks have increased significantly and I will have to place a much higher weighting to the 2A stance of politicians I vote for (for those who are getting excited by this statement, I have always tried to vote for the most libertarian leaning member of the major parties that was on the ballot, the problem is there hasn't been much to choose from in that regard for most of my voting life).
"Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
-DoctorWho

Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    Changing paradigms, huh. Gee, now it all makes sense.
  • wildgenewildgene Senior Member Posts: 1,036 Senior Member
    ...false hopes, wishful thinking, skewed data, outright lies, & unicorns don't make it so...

    ...gun ownership is @ an all-time high, w/ the fastest growing number of shooters being women, & support for "gun control" is falling steadily except in the liberal media, who are still "quoting numbers" like "90% & 70% & 40%" even after they've been shown time & again those "numbers" aren't real. Same kinda rhetoric in 1994, & look what that got the libs...
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    wildgene wrote: »
    ...false hopes, wishful thinking, skewed data, outright lies, & unicorns don't make it so...

    ...gun ownership is @ an all-time high, w/ the fastest growing number of shooters being women, & support for "gun control" is falling steadily except in the liberal media, who are still "quoting numbers" like "90% & 70% & 40%" even after they've been shown time & again those "numbers" aren't real. Same kinda rhetoric in 1994, & look what that got the libs...

    I hope you're right. However from my perspective interacting with a lot of liberals and non-gun owners I'm seeing things go both ways. There are those who are more curious and interested in guns and gun ownership but also those who didn't care much one way or another becoming much more staunchly in favor of at least some gun control. I'm thinking this background check thing could get passed at some point although I would say the odds of something like an AWB at a national level being relatively low.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    wildgene wrote: »
    ...gun ownership is @ an all-time high

    I'm not so sure about this. While gun purchases may be at an all time high, gun ownership is still relatively low and was declining up until a few years ago (does appear to be increasing thankfully). I'd be interested to see some stats on the number of people actually purchasing the guns though. My gut is that there are a ton more guns but they're held by fewer people than say in the 50's or 60's. I know most of the people here are in the double and even triple digits which is probably way more than our parents or grandparents. Unfortunately no matter how many guns we own we only each get one vote.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,047 Senior Member
    ........Unfortunately no matter how many guns we own we only each get one vote.
    Seems like a lot of Democrats get more than one.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • softwarejanitorsoftwarejanitor Member Posts: 241 Member
    I've been a single-issue 2nd Amendment voter for years. When it comes right down to it, if the 2nd falls there's just nothing left to hold up the rest.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    Under the new paradigm I believe the risks have increased significantly and I will have to place a much higher weighting to the 2A stance of politicians I vote for (for those who are getting excited by this statement, I have always tried to vote for the most libertarian leaning member of the major parties that was on the ballot, the problem is there hasn't been much to choose from in that regard for most of my voting life).

    In for a penny, in for a pound, dude. The fact is that you have thrown your lot in with a crowd that will use any political vehicle they can find, create, invent, or otherwise deceive voters with, in an all-out effort to transform this representative republic into an oligarchy ruled by an elitist crowd of intellectuals which you intend to be a member of.

    You justify every sleazy thing they do by attempting to equate it with past transgressions by those who fundamentally oppose their attempts to dismantle the Constitution, citing anecdotal evidence as if it were the norm. Sure, you can say both sides do it, because, politicians being what they are, there are always people on both sides that will use any political trick to rule against the will of the people. The difference is one of degree, and that is where the deception comes in. We once had a more or less self-correcting system, because both sides believed in capitalism, property rights and individual freedom, and although the arguments were sometimes just as vicious as they are today, the people could always believe that the republic would remain intact, no matter which party won the major elections, because we all wanted that. That is not so, any more. You have aligned yourself with those radicals created by the civil unrest of the '60's who had a few examples they could use to somewhat justify their radicalism, but now have to mostly invent them with emotional appeals and lawyer tricks. You are one of them, trained from birth, or indoctrinated by professors with aspirations of entering that class of 'intellectuals' that they believe are suited to make all the rules for the unwashed masses.

    You can pretend to be a libertarian when your side appears to be on the ropes, but the bottom line is that you don't believe in the principles this country was founded on any more than the present administration does, and you prove it every time you have to choose between the Marx-based ideas of the left and the ideas of the 'founding fathers.'
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    I have to say one of your finest rants to date Bisley. You've clearly got it all figured out...except for the part about how the Republican party has long been the tool of the oligarchs and aren't a valid alternative. I found this part especially delicious since it sounds exactly like something that would be written on a sign at an OWS rally.
    bisley wrote: »
    The fact is that you have thrown your lot in with a crowd that will use any political vehicle they can find, create, invent, or otherwise deceive voters with, in an all-out effort to transform this representative republic into an oligarchy ruled by an elitist crowd of intellectuals which you intend to be a member of.

    As for becoming a member of the elitist intellectual crowd, absolutely! You play the game that's on the table, not the one you want to play. Sure I could quit my job and spend my days complaining about how the system is unfair or broken or decaying and make signs, march, and shake my fist in anger at the man while I'm starving collecting my food stamps and living on my parents couch, or I can suck it up, play the game, climb the ladder and collect my fat pay checks. Which sounds like a better way to go?

    The unfortunate truth is that our government has long been owned by the oligarchs and it has only gotten worse post citizens united which unleashed a flood of cash into our election cycles. Many have realized that the surest way to win is to fund both sides! While there have been movements and insurgencies on the wings of the parties, the establishment of both parties has long been dedicated in service to the cartels and I see very little hope of that changing anytime soon.

    It is true that I have downplayed some of the recent scandals, but that is mostly because I believe they are a misplacement of energy vs. what I see as Obama's more important failings:

    The national security scandal isn't Benghazi, but the fact that GITMO is still open and Obama has apparently created the authority to unilaterally assassinate US citizens

    The most important scandal at the justice department isn't fast and the furious but the fact that Holder hasn't prosecuted a single banker for the rampant fraud and abuse that nearly destroyed our entire economy from 2006-2008, furthermore Obama continues to balk on regulating the financial weapons of mass destruction known as derivatives or even make the slightest move to break up the too big to fail banks which represent a clear and present danger to our economy.

    The most important scandal in regards to privacy isn't that Obama obtained AP phone records, it's the continuous secret warrantless wire tapping program run by the NSA and the countless other programs authorized by the patriot act which show blatant disregard for the 4th amendment

    The scandal at the IRS isn't that some lower level public servants tried to do their job by weeding out political groups who were trying to get non-profit status, it's the fact we let non-profit organizations spend massive sums of money on elections in the first place and don't even force them to fully disclose their donors.

    Of course the reason none of the above things have been called out as scandals is that they all enjoy unanimous bipartisan support in Washington. What is your solution to this conundrum? Vote for Mitt Romney?

    Anyone who's a Simpson's fan should get this:
    [video=youtube_share;zTJ0qYR6YFo]
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    I have to say one of your finest rants to date Bisley. You've clearly got it all figured out...except for the part about how the Republican party has long been the tool of the oligarchs and aren't a valid alternative. I found this part especially delicious since it sounds exactly like something that would be written on a sign at an OWS rally.

    As usual, you've got nothing but bait and switch. You have been defending these people for your entire time here, or just disappearing when they are ridiculously undefendable...only to pop back in when you think you have something juicy against their opponents.

    The proof is in the pudding, and you vote for them, every time, knowing full well that their goal is to dismantle the republic, so the 'smart' people can rebuild it and use its wealth to finally fully finance the experiments in socialism that have failed every time they've ever been tried.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    As usual, you've got nothing but bait and switch. You have been defending these people for your entire time here, or just disappearing when they are ridiculously undefendable...only to pop back in when you think you have something juicy against their opponents.

    The proof is in the pudding, and you vote for them, every time, knowing full well that their goal is to dismantle the republic, so the 'smart' people can rebuild it and use its wealth to finally fully finance the experiments in socialism that have failed every time they've ever been tried.

    Again who should I be voting for? The republican party is going to save us? If only I had voted for George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney life would be perfect and democracy restored?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,736 Senior Member
    A paradigm is a pair of dimes, or a $2 word for pattern that caught on around 30 years ago to replace the word pattern to make it sound more important. The elitist left tends to use it a lot because it sounds important. Kind of like dressing up a pig in a prom dress. It's still a pig, but in a prom dress.

    The loony left and the hypocrite right that is RHINO will keep pushing this mess and trying to gain total government control over everything until the time when the velvet covered handcuffs become too much. Then the gloves will come off. And those on that side will see what happens when they have kicked the hornet's nest one time too many. Kind of similar to the pogroms in Russia, but this time around it will be purging the elitist left and any followers too strident in their support to see the handwriting on the wall. And it will degenerate into a gawdawful bloody mess.

    Libertarian my shiny hiney! If Jefferson were still alive and read what you've supported, he'd die again from laughter, and then a massive heart attack from high blood pressure brought on by anger. Obama said at the start of his first term that he would 'fundamentally transform' America. That statement made the hair on the back of my neck stand at attention and a cold chill run up my spine. I knew what he meant after hearing him speak on the campaign trail. His 'share the wealth' is code speak directly from the Communist Manifesto.

    Obama has far exceeded the drone strikes of his predecessor. And you railed when Bush used them. He wants to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. He could repatriate all the prisoners there to their home countries if he wanted to, over the objections of their home countries; parachutes are cheap.

    Fast and Furious was a dual purpose plan cooked up by the Justice Department. Justice Department; now there's an oxymoron of very high magnitude. Filled with crooks and run by crooks with morals and ethics that make an alley cat blush. First purpose was as stated; to find how guns from the U.S. were making their way to Mexico; second unstated purpose was to push for his stated goal of draconian gun control in the U.S. It's been years and no one in the Justice Dept. or Treasury(BATFE) has been charged, much less prosecuted for this blatantly illegal program. A few have been promoted, though, just like they were after Waco.

    The Bengazi mess is laid firmly at the doorstep of Obama. I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that there were assets available to send in time to prevent the second attack and get those people out of there. General Ham and Admiral Gaouette were relieved of command for attempting to put those assets in motion and extricate those at the compound. To be 'fair and balanced' here's a link to a lefty and righty report of their being relieved.

    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-868910
    http://www.newswithviews.com/JBWilliams/williams247.htm

    Don't try to say that no assets were available to relieve the compound at Bengazi. They were available, but were told to stand down. And if you are truly interested in what transpired with General Ham and Admiral Gaouette that night, the truth is easy to find. The truth beats your spin.............every freakin' time.

    The IRS scandal is way deeper than your glossed over version of it. It's only the merest tip of the iceberg of the corruption and power mad degenerates running that branch of the government. Their list of sins against the people of the U.S. would stretch around the globe and leave enough to tie a nice pretty bow.

    My solution to the problem? Charge, put on trial, convict, and send the perpetrators to a new Super Max prison to be built especially to hold just them........................forever.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,662 Senior Member
    Again who should I be voting for? The republican party is going to save us? If only I had voted for George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney life would be perfect and democracy restored?

    Libertarian. If everyone that was sick of the two parties would vote their conscience, it would end this mess.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,736 Senior Member
    We're a representative republic, NOT a democracy. If ya don't know the difference, you're already lost out the gate. Sayin'.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Libertarian. If everyone that was sick of the two parties would vote their conscience, it would end this mess.

    Yeah my first ever vote for president was Harry Browne in 2000. I strongly considered pulling the lever for Michael Badnarik in 2004 before voting for Kerry as the lesser of two evils believing anything would be better than Bush. At the time I frequently attended monthly Libertarian Party of Ohio meetings which consisted of about 10 guys and one or two girls who were either gun nuts, pot heads, or both sitting around a bar complaining about stuff before realizing I was pretty much wasting my time. In 2008 and 2012 I registered republican so I could vote for Ron Paul in the primaries with similar results. At the end of the day there's only so much you can do, especially when so many people believe the answer is simply to elect the opposite party.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • conchokidconchokid Administrator Posts: 507 Senior Member
    Again who should I be voting for? The republican party is going to save us? If only I had voted for George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney life would be perfect and democracy restored?

    The GOP may not be perfect, but if McCain or Romney were in the White House and if the Republicans controlled both the House and Senate, it would be a better world.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    conchokid wrote: »
    The GOP may not be perfect, but if McCain or Romney were in the White House and if the Republicans controlled both the House and Senate, it would be a better world.

    Because 2000-2006 were the good'ol days? The dot com bust, 9/11, The patriot act, 2 unfunded wars, formation of homeland security, abu ghraib, NSA warrantless wiretapping program put in place, and a housing bubble?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • softwarejanitorsoftwarejanitor Member Posts: 241 Member
    Because 2000-2006 were the good'ol days? The dot com bust,

    The .com bust was a result of a bubble formed during the Clinton years. Even if Gore had been elected in 2000, the bubble would have burst, and I believe that the crater would have been far worse under Gore's presidency than it was under Bush.
    9/11,

    Again, 9/11 was more a result of Clinton's policies than Bush's, and chances are it would still have happened even if Gore had been elected. I've never been a Bush fan, but he was clearly the lesser evil compared to Gore or Kerry. And for that matter, Bush Sr. or Bob Dole would have been lesser evils than Clinton.
    The patriot act,

    I'm no fan of the Patriot Act but most of the Dems at the time voted for it, voted for extending it and have had their chances to dismantle it and have chosen not to. I think we would have ended up with something just as bad if not worse in the aftermath of 9/11 if Gore had been president.
    2 unfunded wars,

    I was not in favor of the wars or the fact that we didn't cut something like social spending to fund them if we did need to fight them. However I am not entirely convinced that we wouldn't have ended up involved in some kind of messy war even if Bush hadn't been in the Whitehouse.
    formation of homeland security,

    Again, if anything it has been expanded under Obama.
    abu ghraib,

    I'd feel a lot worse about that if I didn't think the people who were the "victims" there wouldn't do the same things or worse to people like me if they had a chance.
    NSA warrantless wiretapping program put in place,

    Again, Obama has had over 4 years now to turn it off.
    and a housing bubble?

    The housing bubble... Barney Frank and others who were pushing banks to serve the non-creditworthy were as responsible for it as Bush was.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,662 Senior Member
    Again, Obama has had over 4 years now to turn it off.

    My father in law had first hand knowledge that the same warrant-less wiretapping was being under Carter.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,580 Senior Member
    SWJ the point isn't that Obama or dems are better the point is is that both sides suck and those who think we can solve our problems by just electing more of whichever of the political parties we happen to cheer for are deluding themselves. The two parties have developed a symbiotic duopoly that has allowed them to consolidate power and eliminate any real outside competition. It gives us the illusion of choice when in fact the two parties are merely two sides of the same coin, pandering to different groups, but ultimately ruling in a very similar manner. Then again perpetuating the illusion that they are vastly different is the key to their power. As long as they can convince the public if you just vote for the other guy next time around things will be better, they can keep us at eachother's throats, and we won't notice the fact that we're being conned.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,830 Senior Member
    I'm glad the paradigm has shifted for you.....for most of the rest of us, based on Obama's own speech, his past and the people he hangs out with, knew the administration was going to do this the FIRST time he was elected....assuming he was elected to a second term....If Sandy Hook and Aurora had never occurred we would STILL be right where we are now...Obama and his cronies have always been gun grabbers...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    SWJ the point isn't that Obama or dems are better the point is is that both sides suck and those who think we can solve our problems by just electing more of whichever of the political parties we happen to cheer for are deluding themselves. The two parties have developed a symbiotic duopoly that has allowed them to consolidate power and eliminate any real outside competition. It gives us the illusion of choice when in fact the two parties are merely two sides of the same coin, pandering to different groups, but ultimately ruling in a very similar manner. Then again perpetuating the illusion that they are vastly different is the key to their power. As long as they can convince the public if you just vote for the other guy next time around things will be better, they can keep us at eachother's throats, and we won't notice the fact that we're being conned.

    This is probably the most intelligent post you have ever made - it's not entirely correct, but it does contain a great deal of truth.

    The next step in this thought process is to figure out how to fix it, and the first step of that is to start thinking outside of government solutions. We are beyond the point where one great statesman could save us by passing or repealing a couple of huge sweeping laws, because the answer is not in government. What will save us is the collective spirit of millions of intelligent entrepreneurs and the work ethic of the one half of the country who want to enjoy the fruits of their labor without a government that tries to swat them down at every turn. When that begins to function again, we start moving the other half of the people back to the idea that they have to work if they want to have a decent standard of living, and make sure the economy will provide a job for them. Government jobs are not the economic solution - they are the political solution that benefits one party by punishing the taxpayer.

    Our economy is still surviving, against all odds, right now, because of entrepreneurship. There are people out there, right now, who are overcoming the restraints that this corrupt government (and previous ones) has put on them, and they would be creating millions of jobs, if they could just be sure that their government would not punish them for doing it. So, forget party loyalties and just vote for people who have proved, with the way they have lived their lives, that they believe in such a system. Stop voting for people who have done nothing fruitful with their lives - we don't need that many lawyers or government bureaucrats - we need people who know how to succeed at whatever they say they are going to do. There is no need for any more people in government who can only justify their candidacy by destroying their opponent.

    The bottom line: vote for people who have had some success doing the very things they say they intend to do, if those things will make producers out of consumers.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,978 Senior Member
    Well, if the Republicans don't blow it (Again), the current scandals and fallout surely to follow will probably result in more seats in Congress in the mid-term elections. That means in the short term gun control is on the back burner while Dems (most) make excuses for Hillary/Obammy/Holder and generally drag their feet because their boy's administration is in trouble and Republicans push for criminal investigations.

    Never let your guard down, the gun grabbers haven't changed their ultimate goal over the years which is total confiscation of all privately owned firearms. They have stooped to new lows to exploit every tragedy they can and parade grieving parents in front of the camera who lost children in that awful shooting to win support for their cause.

    They don't want armed guards/police/teachers in schools because that may prevent some of these shootings or cut them short and then they will have less ammunition ( sorry for lack of a better word) to spread their lies about "Saving The Children" and "Common Sense" gun control measures they say will make us all safer............................. the slippery slope of gun control is still slippery.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Well, if the Republicans don't blow it (Again), the current scandals and fallout surely to follow will probably result in more seats in Congress in the mid-term elections. That means in the short term gun control is on the back burner while Dems (most) make excuses for Hillary/Obammy/Holder and generally drag their feet because their boy's administration is in trouble and Republicans push for criminal investigations.

    Three things:

    1. The media will be back on the reservation before the run-up to mid-term elections. Obama will throw some people under the bus to give them an excuse to climb back onboard, and still be able to crow that they performed their 'watchdog duties.' I expect them to be back on the propaganda team and churning out hit pieces on targeted Republicans, right on their normal schedule. The Republicans have a history of 'resting on their laurels,' while their political enemies are relentlessly going about the business of winning/stealing elections, so they might still lose out.

    2. If the Republicans do win back the Senate and keep the house, this administration will probably implement some sort of 'Doomsday' plan to implement as many of their goals as possible with bureaucratic snafus, court cases, and executive orders in the dead of night that will of course be downplayed or ignored entirely by the media. In addition, Obama will veto anything they pass, saying that it will hurt children and starve poor people. Besides, Republicans will be too busy patting themselves on the back to accomplish anything for a year, anyway, and then it will be time to start campaigning again.

    3.The one good thing that is probably assured is that there will be no further gun legislation, and if one of the more conservative Supremes dies, they can reject the appointment of any new one that can't pass a 2nd Amendment 'litmus test.'
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    Damn Alph, I thought you were beginning to see just a little light, and maybe you are, but it looks like when people tell you like it is, you reach down and pick up those Rose Colored Glasses again that hide all the deceit and lies of the libtard crowd and you lose sight of the problem.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    The main reason that the Republicans blow it is there's not enough Ron Pauls', Ted Cruz's Or John Cornyn's ouit there. I like some things Lindsey Gram and even John McCain say and do now and then, but they get too wishy washy in the trenches. They're too much like Obama and the Dems where they test the wind before the act. Love him or hate him, Ron Paul never tested the wind other than the wind of what was right or wrong. And he may not have been right every time, but he was true to his self every time.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,736 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    My father in law had first hand knowledge that the same warrant-less wiretapping was being under Carter.

    That's true. Don't remember the name of the original program, but it has been expanded a LOT since then.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,978 Senior Member
    Most of the media don't give a hoot about the 2A, but oh my God step on their toes with the freedom of the press issue a little and they turn on you like a pack of rabid dogs.

    They never seem to get it, that is, the RKBA/2A is what keeps this country free. Without it who knows how far those weenies in DC would go to give themselves more and more power/control. Getting bad enough as it is.

    Time will tell about all our predictions, anything can happen. But it's fun to speculate about the political landscape of the future ain't it.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • softwarejanitorsoftwarejanitor Member Posts: 241 Member
    SWJ the point isn't that Obama or dems are better the point is is that both sides suck and those who think we can solve our problems by just electing more of whichever of the political parties we happen to cheer for are deluding themselves. The two parties have developed a symbiotic duopoly that has allowed them to consolidate power and eliminate any real outside competition. It gives us the illusion of choice when in fact the two parties are merely two sides of the same coin, pandering to different groups, but ultimately ruling in a very similar manner. Then again perpetuating the illusion that they are vastly different is the key to their power. As long as they can convince the public if you just vote for the other guy next time around things will be better, they can keep us at eachother's throats, and we won't notice the fact that we're being conned.

    My point is, we don't have any other viable choices unless/until enough people are willing to support a 3rd party. Until then the only reasonable course of action is to vote for the lesser evil where it matters and work to un-do the 2 party system where possible. And in my opinion as I've said, the lesser evil is clearly the Reps. I am pretty much a single issue 2nd Amendment voter, because that's ultimately the one that really counts. On other issues... Almost all of the things that I disagree with the Reps on, are things that are of lesser importance to me (some civil rights issues that don't affect me directly), or that they have little chance of changing (like abortion) or that I can mostly ignore (their cozying up with religious zealots). Too many of the things I disagree with the Dems on are things that are hard to avoid like their desire for ever higher taxes or to open the floodgates of unfettered immigration.
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