Another thug finds street justice

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
Tonight (Friday 9/9), an off duty South Houston police officer chanced upon an armed robbery of a gas station. The robber was running from the store and opened fire on the officer. Wrong choice. The policeman returned fire, shooting and killing the robber. Unfortunately, before the policeman happened on scene, the robber had shot two patrons in the gas station. Both are in critical condition.

But at least we don't need to worry about early parole for the bad guy. Unlike some rare-practicing LEOs in other areas of the country, Houston (and most Texas) LEOs are fairly adept with their sidearms. The story:

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Officer-fatally-shoots-gas-station-robber-2163855.php

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

Replies

  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "Unlike some rare-practicing LEOs in other areas of the country, Houston (and most Texas) LEOs are fairly adept with their sidearms. The story:"

    That is up to the individual LEO, (extra training) back then some would hand Me their quota of practice ammo after a few rounds, others would seek Me for remedial training, I considered it an honor and privilege to help anyone in need of training, regardless of their ability to pay.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Unlike some rare-practicing LEOs in other areas of the country, Houston (and most Texas) LEOs are fairly adept with their sidearms.

    Can you qualify that? It's frankly insulting.

    A few days ago, a local deputy here shot and killed a man when a vehicle pursuit ended in the vehicle going in to a shallow section of river. The deputy ran up to the vehicle to aid in detaining the individual who had kidnapped his girlfriend in the vehicle and found the man actively stabbing the woman in the torso. He drew his side arm and neutralized the threat. The woman is still in the hospital and is expected to survive, despite being stabbed 31 times.

    Now for the retort...

    Unlike most other slow-responding deputies in other parts of the country, deputies in Florida prevent murders before they occur.

    Is my retort a bit course tongued and facetious? Yes it is. Keep your narrow-minded diatribe to yourself.

    And to the Houston officer who ended that suspect's reign of crime: good on ya, brother. RIP to the two victims.

    -Jason
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • HKChrisHKChris New Member Posts: 15 New Member
    NYP hit probability from 1990 - 2000 was 15%
    Metro dade county was 30% 1988-1994
    Los Angelas county was 51% 1998-2002

    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf



    I think there's work to be done in basic marksmanship for most police officers. I suspect many think of it as a "job" and only touch their gun when told they have to qualify and then their are others who enjoy shooting and realize that they need to be proficient with a firearm.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,353 Senior Member
    Jason

    Dashboard cameras tell the tale. Magazines expended without hits. Plus, some of us have worked for numerous agencies in our careers and we qualify with the average joe cop who really hates to shoot and when he is forced to, he does it poorly.

    The "average" hobby shooter, will in all likelihood, best the "average" police shooter because the hobbyist is doing it for fun and the cop is doing it as a mandate.

    Don't be insulted by the fact that most cops are consistently poor shooters, while about 5% of them are gun nuts who love to shoot. Just be proud of your own interest in firearms and going the extra mile.

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,262 Senior Member
    I can only imagine the pressure experienced by anyone, LEO or otherwise being involved in a real wild west type shoot out
    at a gas station & actually hitting the BG. Shooting at the range and shooting at a BG that's shooting at you is quite different.
    My hats off to the LEO, justice is served.
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,592 Senior Member
    The Police types that I've shot with are admittedly on the Topeka SWAT team, they shoot a lot and on their own dime. I for one shrink from being on the receiving end of their fire. The accurate fire rate under stress of combat is 2/1 - a 100% shooter becomes a 50% when he is being shot at and the ratio goes down from there. Casting all Police types as crappy shots is easy to do from your chair and not a fair comparison.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I qualified my remarks with "some" and didn't paint with a broad brush. No insult was intended to LEOs from other states, of course.

    We do see however that many jurisdictions -- emphasis on east coast big city liberal-controlled zones -- the police are not really encouraged to work hard to improve their marksmanship, are often required to carry one pistol (no backup) and find that range time is not seemed to be a plus on their records.

    It's not the individual police on the line, it's the brass who are so liberal-tainted that they'd take the guns away from their force if they had the chance.

    All I'm saying is that, in my personal experience, Texas LEOs are very enthusiastic about shooting, compared with Rust Belt big city liberal-pressured cops. Whereas many LEOs don't shoot a lot and only brush up for their annual qualifying, Texas cops practice all the time, own several nice handguns (the most desired is the 1911 followed by hi-cap 40s) and I've chatted with them often at the range, where they compare targets and take pride in their top quality sidearms.

    Florida LEOs are pretty good too, as are many Southern and Southwestern jurisdictions. Not so in the Eastern liberal-governed zones, where armed police are sneered at by many of their own leadership, sadly.

    That's what I was trying to say -- not to denigrate LEOs from other jurisdictions but to be sympathetic for their brothers who labor under more repressive supervision. I honestly didn't mean to offend other LEOs in other areas of the country, even though our Texas LEOs are the best, still.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "Florida LEOs are pretty good too, as are many Southern and Southwestern jurisdictions. Not so in the Eastern liberal-governed zones, where armed police are sneered at by many of their own leadership, sadly.

    Armed Police ??? sounds like the UK, England, and even there that is fast changing.

    You can't make subjective statements about training or the lack thereof like that, I participated in multi-agency training in My time, JTF and many LEO's wanted better training and actively sought it out, on their own dime as was pointed out, then there were those that felt they would never have to draw their sidearm and never did more than qualification, and even those would change their tune.

    Unless you were actively involved in Law Enforcement training, comparative blanket statements about proficiency tends to annoy most LEO's.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    Dan,

    I agree. I guess it is just the patriotic Floridian in me. You can love your state, his is Texas for example, without being conceited about it. I admire Texas and Alaska, the two states where rights still mean something, along with Florida. Florida is sort of the outcast southern state, but it has some of the most unrestrictive state gun laws compared to a few other "traditional" southern states.

    I will concede that many officers do not train as much as they should, not by a long shot. My department has an "open range day" coming up where you can get together and think up whatever move-shoot-reload thing you can imagine up and run it to monotony. I guarantee that I along with about 5 other people will show up and that will be it. Its frustrating for me and my fellow motivated individuals becasue I know when the needle points south, they will be less prepared than I to aid me in doing, well, anything.

    And yes, I know dash cams tell the tale of poor shot placement. Its all too true. I hope I can land the mark if I have to when the chips are down. I am the only of three officers in my department qualified with a AR15, Shotgun and the sidearm at once. I am also qualified with all of my personally owned handguns to use during out-of-uniform functions (schools, conferences, etc.)--no one else is. It sickens me a bit, the lack of motivation. The amount of paperwork invovled makes it feel like a secretarial job sometimes, but it is far from it.

    -Jason
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BullgatorBullgator Member Posts: 393 Member
    Jason

    The "average" hobby shooter, will in all likelihood, best the "average" police shooter because the hobbyist is doing it for fun and the cop is doing it as a mandate.

    Don't be insulted by the fact that most cops are consistently poor shooters, while about 5% of them are gun nuts who love to shoot. Just be proud of your own interest in firearms and going the extra mile.
    Dan

    How many "average hobby shooters" have had to shoot at anything other than targets? How many have shot at another person who is shooting back? If a cop is a poor marksman at the range that's one thing. But I'm not going to fault a guy for not shooting in a life and death situation as well as I shoot at paper.
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,740 Senior Member
    Sam thanks for your usual biased opinion
    I'll take it for what it is worth
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    Jason

    Dashboard cameras tell the tale. Magazines expended without hits. Plus, some of us have worked for numerous agencies in our careers and we qualify with the average joe cop who really hates to shoot and when he is forced to, he does it poorly.

    The "average" hobby shooter, will in all likelihood, best the "average" police shooter because the hobbyist is doing it for fun and the cop is doing it as a mandate.

    Don't be insulted by the fact that most cops are consistently poor shooters, while about 5% of them are gun nuts who love to shoot. Just be proud of your own interest in firearms and going the extra mile.

    Dan

    Sadly, Dan is right. I've watched many officers qualify many many times now, and *most* of them are only just slightly better than the required score, which btw, is NOT very demanding. Many of them only practice just before qualification each year, and some of them ONLY shoot when they qualify annually. I do think the % of police shooter firearm enthusiasts is a bit more than 5%, but probably not a LOT higher.

    I know for a fact that most of my friends who I shot with back when I was younger were better than the average police shooter. They might not have been a match for the top enthusiasts in most police departments, but they were DEFINITELY better than the *average* qualifier. Since most of the gun nuts I hang out with now are a bit older and more mature and have been shooting for many years, they're a LOT better than the average policeman/policewoman.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,353 Senior Member
    Bullgator wrote: »
    How many "average hobby shooters" have had to shoot at anything other than targets? How many have shot at another person who is shooting back? If a cop is a poor marksman at the range that's one thing. But I'm not going to fault a guy for not shooting in a life and death situation as well as I shoot at paper.

    Bullgator

    You're showing a tad lack of knowledge about the affairs of the world. Average citizens "KILL" several times more offenders annually than do the police. That of course is due to numbers, but when faced with the real deal, they seem to come through just fine. The "police" attitude that their superior training and qualifications make them better at determining when and how to use a firearm is nonsense! Pure and simple.

    Keep in mind, this is coming from one who wore three different badges over the course of nearly 30 years. I've seen cops of every size and shape and with few exceptions, only about 1 in 25 actually takes the time to really learn how to master their weapon.

    Regards

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    It seems that I inadvertantly stepped on some toes here, and it was not intentional. All I said was that from reading accounts of police vs bad guy shootings, Texas cops seem to have a better track record compared with some other jurisdictions (and mostly I was thinking about "Rust Belt" and Eastcoast cops who work much of the time for anti-gun leaders who pressure them to avoid armed conflicts. It's not the cops themselves but they often get caught up in the "who cares" mindset and don't practice as often as they should.

    That was my point -- not trying to denigrate the LEOs themselves.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Wow I have been to the range when LAPD was there practicing. They must be a bunch of lucky guys because from what I saw, I wouldn't want them shooting at me.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Wow I have been to the range when LAPD was there practicing. They must be a bunch of lucky guys because from what I saw, I wouldn't want them shooting at me.

    LAPD has dramatically increased its firepower and ability since that awful bank robbery incident. Things have certainly changed for the better, and you're right -- I wouldn't want them shooting at me.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Out here in Oregon, our LEOs are at my gun club almost every week training. Great to see them there. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • olesniperolesniper Senior Member Posts: 3,738 Senior Member
    I wouldn't be too harsh on Sam. I can remember incidents like the one in DC, years ago. A BG on a bicycle, rolled up on 2 well dressed men, on a residential street, pulled a knife and demanded money. The 2 gentlemen were ATF agents, on their way to a court appearance. They drew their weapons and fired 20+ rounds, taking out the armed assailant.......the bicycle........a mail box.......and a house.
    I get frustrated when I watch "COPS" and see an officer struggle to clear a perp's gun. Usually a piece that most of us could field strip in our sleep.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
    I will fear no evil: For I carry a .308 and not a .270
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "That was my point -- not trying to denigrate the LEOs themselves."

    No, but you made an ill informed blanket statement, with little interest in learning the facts, and it is annoying to those of us that have actually served as LE officers and know differently, you also tend to dismiss folks that do not meet your unknown criteria too.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, Doc, I did say "some" less well trained and that's not a blanket statement, like "all Texas LEOs are better shots in real events than ALL other LEOs". And no I don't dismiss anything about "unknown" criteria. I thought my criteria were well known in this case: accurate shooting in a real "hot" situation. What was hidden about that? Or did I mess something.

    I already apologized if I stepped on anyone's toes. That having been done, what else would you want? Okay, how 'bout this? "In many cases, LEOs from non-Texas jurisdictions have also proven to be good shoots in actual tactical events." Or what?

    Here's what I cannot do: I cannot become 23 years old and join a police force and spend tons of years gaining on-street experience as a LEO. All I can do is process what I personally have seen, and I've seen many Texas-area LEOs take an enthusiastic and serious process into getting top quality sidearms (unlike many Eastern jurisdictions, Southern and Southwest cops can choose their own sidearm, within limits and can also carry backups, which some other jurisdictions forbid). And these Tx cops practice a lot at the range, take pride in their skills, and are, many of them, dedicated tactical shooters. This is what I know. The criteria are "known" and not "unknown" -- no ouija board, no tarot.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I can well attest that even in New York City, there was a mix of Police Officers from the various City, State and Federal agencies that either qualified once a year and called it good, and some were on various teams, and others that wanted even more training, and I used to assist with that.

    I enjoyed a really good reputation as an Instructor, and it was sometimes a bit of a shock and a privilege as far as who some of My students were.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,980 Senior Member
    Sam is just proud of the Houston PD and that cop in particular. I will say that most Texas cops I've seen have a "Don't Mess With Texas" look in their eyes and they mean business, especially the Highway Patrol, Deputy Sheriffs and the few Texas Rangers I've seen. Of course, I've seen the same persona projected by many a Florida cop too.

    Guess what, it's true around the world that some cops just shoot when they have to and their guns are just tools for their jobs. However, those who take the take the time and effort to better themselves, usually the gun enthusiasts really shine with their ability. In my 12 years stationed Germany, I knew many a cop (Polizei) from shooting houses/clubs that were expert marksmen, but they would laughingly show me the splintered wood by the target stands where the everyday non-gun cops had been trying to qualify for their jobs. True, they start with longer and more intense training requirements over there, closer to our FBI than our regular cops get here. But, usually after that (for most) it's get qualified for the job and no more.

    I'm sure Sam has the deepest respect for all LEOs and what they do to keep us safe. I have a general understanding with them too, I don't bother them and they don't bother me.:tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks, Big -- you said essentially what I was meaning to say in the first place, except you did it better. I am just proud of Texas LEOs and their generally no nonsense attitude.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    And you will find LEOs like that the world over.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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