Handloading the .44 Mag - Help/Recommendations

Zee

Alright, I have brass/dies/bullets/powder ready to go for the .44 Mag. Unfortunately, no primers yet. But, the brass is prepped and ready to go whenever I find some primers.

I've been putting off loading the .44 (hence not having primers & powder) because it just wasn't a priority or necessity at the time. Well, I've got nothing else to do, so I might as well start with the .44 Mag.

I am using the following:

H110
Remington Brass
Hornady 240gr XTP
RCBS Carbide Dies

I'll pretty much take what I can get when it comes to primers since there ain't none.

Questions:

- I didn't chamfer/debur/uniform the primer pocket of the brass. Should I? This is only a 100-150 yards hndgun. Is all that necessary?

- Do I follow book specs for seating depth? I wouldn't assume it is like rifles where you can seat bullets according to your chamber. Does one even PLAY with seating depth? Or, is it pretty much a fixed concept (fits in cylinder)?

- I have 3 handguns and 1 levergun. I don't want to load specifically for all three. I plan to stick pretty close to book specs and load using my Ruger 7.5" Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley, since it wears a 2x scope. I can expect a load worked up in the Bisley to be functional in another Super Blackhawk, a S&W Mountain Gun, and a Marlin 1894.......even if not ideal........right?

- Testing loads at 50yrds with a 2x scope......I desire reasonable accuracy and as much umph as I can get. I want stout loads but not dangerous. Do you accomplish this the same as a rifle?
*Start a grain and a half below max and load up in half grain increments with book seating depth. Or, do I use less charge weight spreads?
*Go to range and shoot lowest load for accuracy (3 round groups) at 50 yards. Then, shoot higher loads until max load is reached.
*Settle on load with most power and acceptable accuracy.

Is this the way, or is it different than a rifle and I need to be doing something else?

Help!!!!!!

timc

I don't put as much effort into my handgun brass like I do with rifle brass in prep work, I really don't think it helps that much on a 100 yard gun. I would suggest working up a load that works well for the mountain gun and then using that in the others. The Ruger will take high power loads better but should still work well with what ever the S&W likes and the rifle will probably like anything you feed it.

Billy Gun

Pretty much the same load I use. I like H110 with the xtp's. I would make sure all the brass is the same length. I seat the bullets to roughly center of the cannellure and crimp. I don't always clean the primer pockets, it depends on how they look. Use the book data and work up to max slowly. I'm happy with the loads about 2-3 grs below max. they grouped well at 50 yds and didn't seem to be over pressure. I don't have a scope so I'll never take longer shots. They knock over milk jugs consistently at around 100 yds though.

Zee

Tim,

The only problem I see with working loads with the Mountain gun is determining accuracy. It got pretty big sights and would have to shoot at 25 yards. Even at that, I don't know that I could reliably distinguish a difference in accuracy between loads unless it was drastic. At 25 yards with the defensive sights, the difference between a 1.5" load and a 2" load or even 2.5" could be hard to determine if it was the load or shooter error.

At least with the Ruger and 2x scope, I can be pretty sure of the accuracy of a given load.

jbohio

Trim your brass, helps with uniform crimping. You pretty much gotta seat to the cannelure, and crimp the check out of them. Much like rifles, I've found that big bores shoot best right at max.
Don't sweat the primer pockets.

Edit. My 454, 45Colt, and 44 all shoot cloverleafs with H110 and XTP's, at .2 under max

Jermanator

Get one of these...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/563825/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-44-special-44-remington-magnum
You will thank me later.

Zee

Jerm,

I have one for my .30-30 and .458 WM. haven't used the .458 yet. But, that's next.

I don't understand what it means by "sizes" and "crimps" at the same time. I thought sizing was in brass prep prior to seating a bullet. How do you size and crimp a case with a bullet in it.

Im obviously missing something.

Jermanator

It actually "resizes" it to make damn sure it will fit in your chamber. Basically, it is a collet that pushes everything back in place. Remember that you will have to bell out your handgun brass in order to stuff a bullet in there. That Lee die makes things idiot proof.

Zee

Ok, I've already belled all the cases. So, after I seat a bullet, the Lee die makes sure all the belled edges are properly back in place and then crimps?

Think I understand now.

Jermanator

Exactly. That die will save you all the frustration of setting up regular dies and getting the crimp just right. Your brass don't even need to be the same length.

Zee

Put that Lee die on my Midway "wish list" to get when I find primers.

Again, you're costing me money. "imoit:

Ranch13

Zee wrote: »

Alright, I have brass/dies/bullets/powder ready to go for the .44 Mag. Unfortunately, no primers yet. But, the brass is prepped and ready to go whenever I find some primers.

I've been putting off loading the .44 (hence not having primers & powder) because it just wasn't a priority or necessity at the time. Well, I've got nothing else to do, so I might as well start with the .44 Mag.

I am using the following:

H110
Remington Brass
Hornady 240gr XTP
RCBS Carbide Dies

I'll pretty much take what I can get when it comes to primers since there ain't none.

Questions:

- I didn't chamfer/debur/uniform the primer pocket of the brass. Should I? This is only a 100-150 yards hndgun. Is all that necessary?No

- Do I follow book specs for seating depth? I wouldn't assume it is like rifles where you can seat bullets according to your chamber. Does one even PLAY with seating depth? Or, is it pretty much a fixed concept (fits in cylinder)? You really can't mess with seating depth much with your choice of bullet and powder 110 needs a hard crimp to keep from squibbing and sticking a bullet just past the forcing cone, and the only good way to get that with a jacketed bullet is in the crimp groove

- I have 3 handguns and 1 levergun. I don't want to load specifically for all three. I plan to stick pretty close to book specs and load using my Ruger 7.5" Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley, since it wears a 2x scope. I can expect a load worked up in the Bisley to be functional in another Super Blackhawk, a S&W Mountain Gun, and a Marlin 1894.......even if not ideal........right? It's possible all 3 guns will digest the same load with accuracy

- Testing loads at 50yrds with a 2x scope......I desire reasonable accuracy and as much umph as I can get. I want stout loads but not dangerous. Do you accomplish this the same as a rifle? Won't be able to jazz up the rifle loads. Maximum pressure is just that. The good news is with your 110 powder the velocity from the rifle will best the handgun by around 300 fps.
*Start a grain and a half below max and load up in half grain increments with book seating depth. Or, do I use less charge weight spreads?
*Go to range and shoot lowest load for accuracy (3 round groups) at 50 yards. Then, shoot higher loads until max load is reached.
*Settle on load with most power and acceptable accuracy.

Is this the way, or is it different than a rifle and I need to be doing something else? There's only so much room in a 44 mag case, h110 uses all of it , rifle or pistol , doesn't matter.

Help!!!!!!

In the end about all you can hope for is all 3 guns will accept the same load. Sometimes that doesn't always work out ,especially with the 44 magnum.

Jermanator

Of all the primers out there, I have seen pistol primers the most. They should turn up soon. I got plenty to spare, but they are expensive to ship. If it comes down to it, you can send me your brass, I will prime them, and send them back. Primed brass doesn't need a hazmat.

Zee

Thanks Ranch. That helps a lot. Appreciate it.

Zee

Jermanator wrote: »

Of all the primers out there, I have seen pistol primers the most. They should turn up soon. I got plenty to spare, but they are expensive to ship. If it comes down to it, you can send me your brass, I will prime them, and send them back. Primed brass doesn't need a hazmat.

Nah, there is no rush. I just finally got around to my straight wall cases. Basically, ran out if excuses. There is no rush or worry. I'll find primers when I find them. I have plenty of factory ammo anyway for now.

Just figured I'd procrastinated long enough.

Big Chief

cpj wrote: »

Only thing I can add is, don't reduce the h110. I THINK (it's 1:30, I've been working since seven am yesterday. ) it's no more than 10% under max. But do not quote me.

And an odd thing is Winchester 296 is the same powder, but has no such warnings!

I used to use a lot of Winchester primers that say on the box, for magnum or standard loads.

A heavy crimp is recommended to prevent bullet jump in the adjacent loaded cylinder charge holes and you can adjust the amount of crimp even on Lee FCD's.

Blue Dot, H-110, 2400 and 296 are all good .44 mag powders. Plenty others will work fer target and medium loads. I have a One Caliber load book/pamphlet for the .44 Magnum, lots of load data with just about every bullet/powder combination you can think of, including Ruger/TC/Rifle loads.

Have fun :guns::guns:

BigDanS

What is the difference between large rifle and large pistol primers? I understand large pistol primers have a greater brisance? ( sp?) In a pinch with a .44 couldn't you use large rifle primers for it? I am sure you would have to work up a load... and chrony it.

D

breamfisher

Rifle primers generally have a cup of harder material, which means they usually need a heftier firing pin strike. A strike that a pistol/revolver hammer or striker might not be able to deliver. In other words, they might not go off when you pull the trigger.

Edited to add: disregard info. See here:
http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?15039-Handloading-the-44-Mag-Help-Recommendations&p=254564&viewfull=1#post254564

BigDanS

breamfisher wrote: »

Rifle primers generally have a cup of harder material, which means they usually need a heftier firing pin strike. A strike that a pistol/revolver hammer or striker might not be able to deliver. In other words, they might not go off when you pull the trigger.

Understood, but somehow the hammer strike from a Ruger seems like it would be plenty And surely the 1894 should have enough oooomf in the hammer to set of a rifle primer. Perhaps that is just my imagination. I could see the problem with a 3.5 or 5.5 lb Glock trigger on a G20 or G22, but I don't have any experience with it.

D

Ranch13

There's really not much if any difference in the hardness of the primer cups. The big diffence comes in the primer height. Large pistol primers are just a thousands or two shorter than a rifle primer, the primer pockets on pistol cases are suppose to be reamed to shallow to accept a rifle primer, but that isn't always the case.
It may be possible to use large rifle primers in a pistol case if the primer will seat deep enough to prevent it's hanging on the recoil shield when the cylinder rotates , or conversely having an AD when the bolt on the rifle closes.
I have used large rifle primers in 45 colt cases using +P loads in both the Ruger and the Winchester and had no problems with them.

Ranch13

Also when using h110/296 you will need to use a magnum primer along with a heavy crimp to get reliable ignition. That's one of the reasons I seldom use either of those powders, there are others that will deliver the same velocity and accuracy at a bit less pressure and don't need a magnum primer or excessive crimp.

breamfisher

Ranch13 wrote: »

There's really not much if any difference in the hardness of the primer cups. The big diffence comes in the primer height. Large pistol primers are just a thousands or two shorter than a rifle primer, the primer pockets on pistol cases are suppose to be reamed to shallow to accept a rifle primer, but that isn't always the case.
It may be possible to use large rifle primers in a pistol case if the primer will seat deep enough to prevent it's hanging on the recoil shield when the cylinder rotates , or conversely having an AD when the bolt on the rifle closes.
I have used large rifle primers in 45 colt cases using +P loads in both the Ruger and the Winchester and had no problems with them.

Thanks for the info. I've always read the opposite, but we know that the info we read (and pass on) isn't always true.

Weatherby

While your loading up 44 making up some target ammo with SWC's could be fun

Ok Ok I'll go back in the corner

Ranch13

Breamfisher always glad to help if I can.

Jay

I can't add anything that the others haven't already mentioned. It's a pretty straightforward process. You've already got the main part out of the way, which is resizing and flaring. I like to do that to all my clean brass and store it that way. That way whenever I want to load a batch, all I've gotta do is fire up the RCBS hand primer, prime however many I want, then throw powder, seat and crimp. My Redding 3BR measure will throw charges extremely consistenly, so once I have it set, I can run through a lot of powder quickly without having to check my charges all the time.

You pretty much can't go wron with the XTP bullets. Those bullets are to handgun loading what Amax's are to rifle loading. Very hard to beat for the price. I almost exclusively use those bullets and H110/W296 and Accurate No. 9 powders. I just haven't had the need to try anything else.

In my opinion, as far as accuracy with handgun rounds like this go, the most important things are consistent case length and consistent crimp. The two are generally related to each other. After that, charge weight consistency. Seating depth for me has never been something I mess with. I don't think it makes enough of a difference, except that it's consistent and the crimp groove pretty much determines seating depth anyway. I personally ususally start about mid way or so in the book powder charge range and work loads up in .5 grain increments up to book max. I load up enough to test, shooting 5-shot groups at 25 yards with iron sighted revolvers. For many of my revolvers, I'm not worried about much past 25 yards, so I look for sub 1.5" or so for 5 rounds at that range. When I started working with the 454 Casull and now the 460 Smith with a scope, I've started working on tightening that up and shooting groups out to 100 yards. That is a work in progress for me. I am the limiting factor in that equation, not my loads.

You will gernally also find two different sets of load data for a rounds like this. Regular load data and Thompson Center/Ruger only loads. Of course, the TC-Ruger loads are a bit stouter than other loads. While those loads are, of course, generally safe for a Blackhawk or whatever, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that those loads were safe for a lever action.

Also, as far as working up loads in straight wall cases, I don't believe it's a good practice to pick a starting point and work up unitl you see whatever you're looking for. By the time you start to see signs of pressure in handgun rounds or straight wall cases in general, you've long ago past the safe pressure limit and you're probably getting ready to have a problem. With powders like H110, you generally won't have much room left in the case. But other powders, like AA 9, will easily allow an overcharge.

My $.02

Big Chief

The old target load was 8 grains of Unique under a hard cast 240 grain SWC, but 9 is better and I prefer 10 grains with enough womp to let you know you is shootin more than a special like load. It's a good general purpose load with the zest to take care of about any situation while out woods romping, but not punishing enough so that you get the flinches after a couple cylinder-fulls and shootin a box of 50 or more is still fun.

Zee

Thanks, guys. I will slowly digest this information and likely have more questions.

Zee

cpj wrote: »

Only thing I can add is, don't reduce the h110. I THINK (it's 1:30, I've been working since seven am yesterday. ) it's no more than 10% under max. But do not quote me.

Wasn't planning to reduce. I usually start 1.5gr below book max in rifles. Planned to do the same with the .44 unless its a bad idea.

Six-Gun

See my comments in bold below.

Zee wrote: »

...I am using the following:

H110
Remington Brass
Hornady 240gr XTP
RCBS Carbide Dies

I'll pretty much take what I can get when it comes to primers since there ain't none.

Questions:

- I didn't chamfer/debur/uniform the primer pocket of the brass. Should I? This is only a 100-150 yards hndgun. Is all that necessary?

I never - and never will - deburr the primer pockets on any handgun load, particularly not when I'm getting sub-1/2" groups at 25 yards with my .44 mag revolver as is. Just not worth the hassle in my book

- Do I follow book specs for seating depth? I wouldn't assume it is like rifles where you can seat bullets according to your chamber. Does one even PLAY with seating depth? Or, is it pretty much a fixed concept (fits in cylinder)?

I treat it as a fixed constant based on book-listed length. I use the book OAL as a guide and then tune the length to marry up the cannelure for a good, strong crimp. Follow the usual, safe steps for increasing powder charge from there.

- I have 3 handguns and 1 levergun. I don't want to load specifically for all three. I plan to stick pretty close to book specs and load using my Ruger 7.5" Super Blackhawk Hunter Bisley, since it wears a 2x scope. I can expect a load worked up in the Bisley to be functional in another Super Blackhawk, a S&W Mountain Gun, and a Marlin 1894.......even if not ideal........right?

Functional? almost certainly provided you safety check in all of them. Accurate enough for your tastes? Not likely. It could workout, but given the drastic differences in barrel length (particualrly levergun vs. handguns), chamber dimesnions, etc., I'd expect a pretty big performance gap from gun to gun.

- Testing loads at 50yrds with a 2x scope......I desire reasonable accuracy and as much umph as I can get. I want stout loads but not dangerous. Do you accomplish this the same as a rifle?
*Start a grain and a half below max and load up in half grain increments with book seating depth. Or, do I use less charge weight spreads?
*Go to range and shoot lowest load for accuracy (3 round groups) at 50 yards. Then, shoot higher loads until max load is reached.
*Settle on load with most power and acceptable accuracy.

Is this the way, or is it different than a rifle and I need to be doing something else?

That should work well. Most of my handguns do well when tested .5 grains apart between loads of the same powder, but of course, burn rates are what they are and can monkeywrench the best laid plans. Regardless, your second and third step process listed is exactly what I would do. When you get into a stout enough range for your comfort level in the distance class you plan to shoot with acceptable accuracy, call it a day.

Help!!!!!!

Zee

Well, I will wait until I find Large Pistol Magnum Primers. No reason to use something else instead. Not at desperate means.........yet.

Zee

knitepoet wrote: »

Something to keep in mind, your total charge weight.

1.5gr from a 45 gr charge is a LOT lower percentage than 1.5gr from a 20 gr charge. I normally move in smaller increments with handgun rounds than I do rifle. Something closer to 0.2 is "normal for me"

In the Hornady Manual, a starting load is 20.7gr and a max load is 24.8gr. I'll likely drop to 23.5 (mid-range load) and go to 25.0 in .5gr incriments. Once I find the most accurate of those 4 different loads, I might tweak .2gr if I'm not completely satisfied. But, I'm not going to waste powder starting that way.