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Florida Nurse Terrorized by US Marshals in Warrantless Raid

Big ChiefBig Chief Senior MemberPosts: 32,995 Senior Member
This could have ended very badly. I'm glad the Marshal used "Restraint", but their reason for entering the apartment without a warrant on a "Tip" sounds flaky to me. I don't know if they shouted "US Marshal's" or not. They way police operate, she is lucky she wasn't shot while holding her .38 after they entered.

I also congratulate the police for arresting the pervert later in another part of town.


Do US Marsha'ls have carte blanche to do what they want? As I've said before, too many incidents like this occurring across the country.


http://www.infowars.com/florida-nurse-terrorized-by-us-marshals/
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!

Replies

  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    I grabbed this from the article:


    Wiggins claimed they had a tip that the suspect, Kyle Riley, was inside the apartment complex, but admitted they had no specific information that indicated he was inside Goldsberry’s apartment.

    Wiggins said when the people inside the apartment didn’t immediately open up, that gave them reason to believe they were harboring the alleged child rapist.



    They had no info that he was in a specific apartment, but when the lady sees a man outside her kitchen window pointing a gun at her and panics, that is 'reason' enough to assume that the guy they're looking for is in the apartment in question?!?

    In response to your question, Marshals have no more right to kick in your door than locals do. I do not fault ALL officers for things like this, but how could anyone not see how this affects how the public looks at them?

    I work on cars for a living. In all the years that I've done that, I have NEVER overcharged a customer for work performed, NEVER charged for work that wasn't performed at all, and I NEVER performed work that didn't need to be done without the customer first asking for that service. None of that mattered one bit whenever one of the news shows ran an expose on crooked mechanics or shops that did do those things. As the saying goes; One bad apple...
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    It's going to be necessary for a few of these government-sponsored thugs to die from a homeowner's gunfire before anything will be done to rein them in. Even if the end result is the wounding or death of the victim, until the average citizen shows a willingness to defend themselves against warrantless intimidation, the abuses will continue. One thing we should consider having handy is at least one defensive weapon that will penetrate body armor. Mine is a 7.62X25 CZ-52. (And several full-grown centerfire rifles)
    Jerry
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I grabbed this from the article:


    Wiggins claimed they had a tip that the suspect, Kyle Riley, was inside the apartment complex, but admitted they had no specific information that indicated he was inside Goldsberry’s apartment.

    Wiggins said when the people inside the apartment didn’t immediately open up, that gave them reason to believe they were harboring the alleged child rapist.



    They had no info that he was in a specific apartment, but when the lady sees a man outside her kitchen window pointing a gun at her and panics, that is 'reason' enough to assume that the guy they're looking for is in the apartment in question?!?

    In response to your question, Marshals have no more right to kick in your door than locals do. I do not fault ALL officers for things like this, but how could anyone not see how this affects how the public looks at them?

    I work on cars for a living. In all the years that I've done that, I have NEVER overcharged a customer for work performed, NEVER charged for work that wasn't performed at all, and I NEVER performed work that didn't need to be done without the customer first asking for that service. None of that mattered one bit whenever one of the news shows ran an expose on crooked mechanics or shops that did do those things. As the saying goes; One bad apple...

    I have a problem with this if this is indeed their "reason" for going in the house. But "terrorizing" this is not. Terrorizing her would require her to have been the focus of the action. But I digress. Exigent circumstances to enter a residence require a LOT more reason than no one answering the door. If big brother knocks on my door and I don't answer, am I harboring a fugitive?
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    Unfortunately Jerry's right. I've been looking for a CZ 52 for some time, I didn't know it could penetrate body armor.We are living in a police state.Someday it will blow up
    and it will be big.We are treated this way because we allow it. Time to dust off the pitchforks. QUOTE=Teach;255986]It's going to be necessary for a few of these government-sponsored thugs to die from a homeowner's gunfire before anything will be done to rein them in. Even if the end result is the wounding or death of the victim, until the average citizen shows a willingness to defend themselves against warrantless intimidation, the abuses will continue. One thing we should consider having handy is at least one defensive weapon that will penetrate body armor. Mine is a 7.62X25 CZ-52. (And several full-grown centerfire rifles)
    Jerry[/QUOTE]
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    US Marshal's Service (as a whole) apprehend a lot of criminals and do a great job of it and I salute them for their service to our country. But dang it, this incident is one of many in the news lately. All too frequently do these situations seem to develop.

    Maybe they need better leadership and additional training which may have prevented this in the first place. Bad military units get their leadership relieved and the soldiers retrained when they don't measure up.

    One observation is anytime you KNOW it's is definitely police...drop your gun, they don't know what the facts are yet and have to sort it out. You will lose by overwhelming firepower/force, get killed....sort it out later.

    I think a lot of these kinda things/incidents were on the news a while back about Bounty Hunters.

    I do appreciate the Marshal not shooting that nurse who was holding a .38, many may have and and been cleared (criminally) later on no matter how you look at it.

    I also know, there is always two sides to a coin.

    Maybe a loudspeaker and an announcement the dwellers couldn't have not heard and clearly marked vests worn by the Marshal's could have prevented this. No ones life was thought to be in immediate danger and it was an apprehension, not a hostage situation.

    It's not like the apartment couldn't have been surrounded to where nobody could have escaped, so a few more minutes wouldn't have given the suspected fugitive inside a way to escape.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    I've been looking for a CZ 52 for some time, I didn't know it could penetrate body armor.

    The CZ-52 was designed to penetrate the heavy overcoats and other bulky garments worn by Russian soldiers in the post WW II era. The 7.62X25 is a beaned-up version of the .30 Mauser cartridge and the round runs at extremely high chamber pressures and muzzle velocities. There's a small custom ammo manufacturer that loads a pointy FMJ bullet and sort of pushes the envelope on chamber pressure to give the round the capability to defeat standard-issue body armor without a trauma plate. I think their advertised muzzle velocity for that round from the CZ 52 pistol is around 1700 FPS or so. Some of the handloads I put together have almost achieved that speed. A 110 grain Hornady spire point out of the 24" barreled NEF single shot rifle I built for that round is pushing the 2K FPS neighborhood, but it won't feed through the pistol magazine- - - -too long.
    Jerry
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    You kick my door unannounced and someone's going to get lead poisoning rather quickly. :guns: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I have a problem with this if this is indeed their "reason" for going in the house. But "terrorizing" this is not. Terrorizing her would require her to have been the focus of the action. But I digress. Exigent circumstances to enter a residence require a LOT more reason than no one answering the door. If big brother knocks on my door and I don't answer, am I harboring a fugitive?

    I'm glad we agree on the unit's reasoning (or lack thereof). But....

    Not to argue semantics, but if the purpose of terrorism is to induce terror and confusion in the subject, how could this NOT be considered such? I would say that confusion of the 'bad' guys is one of the main goals of SWAT types. in order to force them into surrender or a mistake...terror is merely an extension of that.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I'm glad we agree on the unit's reasoning (or lack thereof). But....

    Not to argue semantics, but if the purpose of terrorism is to induce terror and confusion in the subject, how could this NOT be considered such? I wouldA say that confusion of the 'bad' guys is one of the main goals of SWAT types. in order to force them into surrender or a mistake...terror is merely an extension of that.

    The definition of "terrorize" is, to create and maintain an extreme state of fear. That was not their intention, however misguided. SWAT teams do use elements of surprise and shock-and-awe, but it is temporary, momentary even, and not continuous. A moment of fear may be a result of the tactic, but fear of a debilitating and cynical nature is not the intent.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    So what of the fear you live with for the rest of your life that comes with a team of highly trained professionals kicking your door in and pointing a gun at you?
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    - - - - -a team of highly trained professionals- - - - -

    One thing they forgot to "highly train" was a proper respect for the Bill of Rights. The SWAT team members I've had the opportunity to interact with in an instructor/student relationship were a bunch of shaved apes who lost a lot of their native intelligence in the transition from simian to "human". The vast majority of them were obnoxious bullies with no respect whatsoever for the "civilians" they were supposedly sworn to serve. Maybe that's just an isolated situation in Nashville Tennessee but I kind of doubt it!
    Jerry
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,269 Senior Member
    Fat Billy wrote: »
    You kick my door unannounced and someone's going to get lead poisoning rather quickly. :guns: Later,


    What? A criminal kicking down the door can't yell, "Police!!"


    http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/1999/05/21/195838-police-intruders-posing-as-cops/
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    What? A criminal kicking down the door can't yell, "Police!!"


    http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/1999/05/21/195838-police-intruders-posing-as-cops/


    Hey, no problem, just dial 911! Got this from the article:

    If there is any doubt about whether a pending raid is legitimate, residents are urged to call 911.

    Of course, if it's not legit, the real cops should be there in due time while the bad guys have guns pointed at you. That assumes that the bad guys let you dial 911 to verify their intentions. If it is legit, then the real cops are already there and making sure that they 'go home that night'. Problem solved! :roll:

    Edited to add: If we civilians are to call to verify the legitimacy of a 'pending raid', can I assume that the raiding parties will be calling ahead of time to set up an acceptable time to carry the raid out?
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    I loved the comment frome the Marshall that he "had to go home tonight", too bad the same did not apply to the nurse. He sure wasn't concerned about her being safe at home.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Since they were doing warrantless searches and not in actual 'hot pursuit' of the guy, the people in that apartment complex should get together and do a federal lawsuit on the grounds of 4th Amendment violations by the US Marshalls AND the police taking part. Seems the only thing that gets the attention of these kind of Richard Craniums is sitting in the hot seat in Federal Court. That, and suing the devil out of them in civil court for whatever the lawyers can 'charge stack' against them.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    Douche canoe?!? :spittingcoffee:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    The definition of "terrorize" is, to create and maintain an extreme state of fear. That was not their intention, however misguided. SWAT teams do use elements of surprise and shock-and-awe, but it is temporary, momentary even, and not continuous. A moment of fear may be a result of the tactic, but fear of a debilitating and cynical nature is not the intent.

    Jason, did you read the article? This woman refused to come out for quite a while after her partner first surrendered because she didn't believe they were cops. She was terrified. Whatever the "intent" of the azzwipe, she was terrorized and playing semantics with what were moronic and all too often repeated tactics on the part of a growing group of nazi wanabes is starting to demonstrate a change in both the attitude of the police and that of the public. There was a time when I had faith in my fellow cops that we'd stand with the people and not the government when it came time to resist the growing menace of absolute governmental control. I know now that this simply isn't true. After over 25 years behind the badge, I never felt it was us against them. Now I know after being retired and no longer a cop, it's them against us.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Local FOX affiliate ran this story today, and the anchors were somewhat mocking the woman for pointing a firearm at the police and because she said they "weren't acting like police." The anchors said that that's what police do when they raid a house.

    But if you've not done anything wrong and people in tac gear show up at your house to do a raid (still not sure if they announced themselves) would you expect it to be an actual raid? You've done nothing wrong, nothing to warrant the police raiding your house.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Plus the guy she saw wasn't wearing tac gear. He was in plain clothes with a vest. Raid vests often don't have a large LE display on the front, only the back. That's great when you have loaded guns behind you, but doesn't do the innocent person ahead of you one bit of good.

    Of course the new breed of cop believes that little badge thingy is all the official demonstration they need. It's fun to see them continually plug the target with the badge on the range coz they didn't see it. People see the gun...not the badge.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Thanks for the correction, Dan. Good point on the badge.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Local FOX affiliate ran this story today, and the anchors were somewhat mocking the woman for pointing a firearm at the police and because she said they "weren't acting like police." The anchors said that that's what police do when they raid a house.

    But if you've not done anything wrong and people in tac gear show up at your house to do a raid (still not sure if they announced themselves) would you expect it to be an actual raid? You've done nothing wrong, nothing to warrant the police raiding your house.

    One thing I figured out, the local FOX affiliates don't always see things in the same light as Fox News does. In other words local Fox is not necessarily a conservative outfit. It can vary.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    No, our local FOX affiliate just has idiots for anchors. That's the basic problem.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    It's going to be necessary for a few of these government-sponsored thugs to die from a homeowner's gunfire before anything will be done to rein them in. Even if the end result is the wounding or death of the victim, until the average citizen shows a willingness to defend themselves against warrantless intimidation, the abuses will continue. One thing we should consider having handy is at least one defensive weapon that will penetrate body armor. Mine is a 7.62X25 CZ-52. (And several full-grown centerfire rifles)
    Jerry

    Unfortunately, I'm afraid Jerry is right on here. If someone doesn't die, Joe Sixpack will never know what really happened. And the media will take the word of the cops and nothing will change. Lately it seems that a lot of LE thinks they are above the law when performing their job. This is because they are preached at to get the bad guy so much.

    My SIL is a Deputy here in the county. He's got that attitude. We had an argument several years back about Miranda rights. He claims they aren't the law. They are the law. I think in some ways Miranda Rights are overkill. But still the point is that they are the law and if the LEO doesn't do it according to the law, if the victim wants and has the means, he can fight it. "Has the means" is the key operative phrase here.

    When you hear people say Justice can be bought, this is where I think most of that belief comes from. It's the fact that a person of means can fight things where the average joe doesn't have the time and/or money to fight it. So people get the idea that "Money" in itself makes a difference. I know there are some corrupt departments around, but I think in most cases it's because they can afford to appeal bad decisions. This makes it appear that people with money can buy their way out. Well that's true in a certain way. it means they can afford a lawyer and have the time and money to fight it. Many times I don't think they have to actually fight it, the reason is often the threat to local LE and politicians that a person with money can and probably will fight a bad judicial or LEO decision or action and so those with that means usually will be treated more favorably because the local officials don't want to have to fight back and especially lose. Makes 'em look bad.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    One thing they forgot to "highly train" was a proper respect for the Bill of Rights. The SWAT team members I've had the opportunity to interact with in an instructor/student relationship were a bunch of shaved apes who lost a lot of their native intelligence in the transition from simian to "human". The vast majority of them were obnoxious bullies with no respect whatsoever for the "civilians" they were supposedly sworn to serve. Maybe that's just an isolated situation in Nashville Tennessee but I kind of doubt it!
    Jerry

    You are right on as usual, here in Oregon the fabulous locals wanted to question a parishoner of the church I am affiliated with.
    I am on the board of directors, and an ordained minister, those officers nicely fit the bill for shaved apes, bully rude etc....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "My SIL is a Deputy here in the county. He's got that attitude. We had an argument several years back about Miranda rights. He claims they aren't the law. They are the law. I think in some ways Miranda Rights are overkill. But still the point is that they are the law and if the LEO doesn't do it according to the law, if the victim wants and has the means, he can fight it. "Has the means" is the key operative phrase here."

    The Miranda decission sets a line or hedge for the LAW, and protects rights, so LE cannot ride rough on people.
    It is just as much a help to a Police Officer as it is for a suspect to have time to consider actions if those rights must be related in the performance of a LEO's duties.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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