Home Main Category Personal Defense

Never bring a knife to a gunfight, chapter 4,693

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
Yesterday (July 21) a woman was pumping gas at a station when she said a man approached her, harassing her. She told him to go away. He advanced on her with a knife. She retrieved a rifle from her vehicle and shot him dead.

Here's the story, short and sweet:

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Woman-fatally-shoots-man-with-knife-at-Houston-4678967.php?cmpid=hpfc
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    More like never be so far away from the other person that they can go into their truck and get the rifle.

    The 21 foot rule was developed in part for... people with knives attacking officers. Inside of about 21 feet or so, a man with a knife can kill a man with a gun if the man with the gun is not paying attention and stays planted. Heck, even if the man with the gun knows what's coming, they can be toast if they stay planted.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Good fer her if all is as it appears/she said it was.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    More like never be so far away from the other person that they can go into their truck and get the rifle.

    The 21 foot rule was developed in part for... people with knives attacking officers. Inside of about 21 feet or so, a man with a knife can kill a man with a gun if the man with the gun is not paying attention and stays planted. Heck, even if the man with the gun knows what's coming, they can be toast if they stay planted.

    I demonstrate and prove this very thing in my classes. Have yet to have the one with the gun NOT get stuck.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I demonstrate and prove this very thing in my classes. Have yet to have the one with the gun NOT get stuck.
    A friend who was a deputy sheriff had it shown with a plastic knife dipped in red paint. A person with a knife can flat out ruin a person with a gun's day, quickly, if they know what they're doing.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    In class I tell them, "Don't bring a gun to a knife fight." Then, wait for the funny looks. They've always heard it the other way around.

    Point being, inside arms length and a little further, someone with a knife and the know how will gut and quarter you before you can draw a gun.

    You have to make space or control the knife before presenting a gun. If the knife is out and they are inside your "personal space" you are officially engaged in a knife fight. Don't even try to bring a gun into play until you have space or control. The knife is your immediate threat and until delt with, you are behind the power curve.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Pretty much what I've been taught. Two good cuts, one to each arm, render your arms useless. Then you can either wait for them to bleed out, or speed up the process.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    Yep.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    In my self defense awareness classes I would tell students to make sure to control the weapon. Otherwise you are punching and he is punching except he is punching with a knife. I have heard tell of 3 experienced MMA fighters put into the hospital by one homeless guy because they forgot that rule.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    :thumbup:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Y'all are right, of course, but it's still nice to see when someone fights back and succeeds.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    Very true, Sam.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    In one of those training situations, I'd be tempted to "shoot" the instructor before he got his attack started. Same thing I'd do in a street encounter.
    Jerry
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    In one of those training situations, I'd be tempted to "shoot" the instructor before he got his attack started. Same thing I'd do in a street encounter.
    Jerry

    That's the lesson I'm trying to instill.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Incidentally, my self defense classes echoed what you guys are saying, that you've got to be prepared and vigilant or you'll end up dead with your gun still holstered.

    First rule is that you need to avoid even BEING in some places, such as high crime neighborhoods, especially after dark.

    If you can't, then keep your car doors locked and don't stop for "strange things" happening. When you stop at a red light, keep back far enough from the vehicle in front of you so you can see their tires, a good rule of thumb. That will give you space to swing around and get away, if necessary.

    A couple years ago, broad daylight, in a busy but not criminal area, girlfriend and I had stopped for gas, and as I was pumping I did, as always, watch all around me.

    This guy was walking along, and veered toward me where I stood. He was just at the edge of the gas station lot when I saw him, and soon as I did, I thought "trouble" so I slipped my pistol from my pocket holster and held it down alongside my leg.

    He came closer, headed for me, and I looked him in the eye, and said "Go away!" and turned my palm slightly to show him the gun. He instantly turned and went quickly off. I figured he was just a panhandling bum looking for a handout but I also didn't want to wait till he was arm's length to find out otherwise.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    In one of those training situations, I'd be tempted to "shoot" the instructor before he got his attack started. Same thing I'd do in a street encounter.
    Jerry

    Correctamundo, to quote a Latin phrase. If they get inside your "comfort zone" you may be too late.

    This is especially true for someone who's physically impaired (me) or simply lacking the muscle to fight hand-to-hand against an attacker (most women, plenty of guys).

    "Shoot first, ask questions later" sounds good, as do most "macho-type" epithets, but it can, of course, get you into deep water legally.

    One critical aspect of a good armed self defense course is to ensure the students know the law and have a strong concept of when to "present", when to fire, and when it's not a good idea. It seems that you guys who have taught self defense are on the ball with this, too.

    Going around armed sounds keen to childish fools and sadly there are too many idiots out there with carry permits who haven't the slightest idea of what to do. But in fact, being an armed citizen is an immense responsibility and before you presume to carry, you should have very clear ideas about all the legal aspects, have good training, and practice practice practice.

    Most of you know that I'm a bit of a "special case" regarding firearms. I don't hunt anymore, don't shoot long guns, don't engage in long distance shooting, and I'm not a reloader or collector. My focus is primarily on self defense, and that means fairly close range shooting. That's just me.

    I'm therefore very well informed on Texas self defense and I regularly practice self defense type pistol shooting, less than 25 feet, quick fire, mostly with .45s.

    I think that knowledge of the self defense laws where you live is easily half of the battle, because it can prevent your getting into hot water if you shoot (or even threaten) someone "out of turn".

    And nothing, of course, replaces common sense.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    I'll probably catch grief for this but...

    If she could get a rifle out of her vehicle, why didn't she just get into the vehicle, lock the doors, and drive off?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I'll probably catch grief for this but...

    If she could get a rifle out of her vehicle, why didn't she just get into the vehicle, lock the doors, and drive off?

    And get arrested for driving off without paying fer da gas.........:tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I'll probably catch grief for this but...

    If she could get a rifle out of her vehicle, why didn't she just get into the vehicle, lock the doors, and drive off?

    Thankfully, this happened in Texas, not NuuYawk. Police say that the case will be referred to the grand jury without charges.**

    ** In Texas, all non-accidental killings, no matter how justified they appear, are required to be presented to the grand jury. What tips the scale is whether the county attorney proffers charges. In this case, no. So it's a walk.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    I think you miss my point. Again.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    I'll probably catch grief for this but...

    If she could get a rifle out of her vehicle, why didn't she just get into the vehicle, lock the doors, and drive off?
    The gas tank could have been on the passenger side where she reached in and grabbed it.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The gas tank could have been on the passenger side where she reached in and grabbed it.
    Plausible. We don't know what happened exactly, obviously. But if you had time to tell the guy to buzz off, then get the rifle out, maybe she had time to get in the car and just drive away. Maybe not. Not enough detail to really know what happened. I'm just offering up the "non-hammer" method of dealing with things.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    There are any number of reasons that could have prevented her from driving away as well as the same number reasons dictating she leave. Either way, when its time to leave, leave. When it's time to fight, fight.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Either way, when its time to leave, leave. When it's time to fight, fight.
    Agreed. I'm not saying she necessarily did wrong, unless her lack of attention in allowing the creep to get in close left her no alternative but to fight. THAT is a failure on her part, in my opinion.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,944 Senior Member
    The ability to decide fight or flight separates reactive and pro-active thinkers.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The gas tank could have been on the passenger side where she reached in and grabbed it.

    Or the nozzle still in her tank .............and kept pumping on her debit card after it was ripped off when she drove off, one bullet is cheaper than many gallons of gas:jester:

    Actually, Massad Ayoob wrote many an article about an attacker with a knife vs a victim with a holstered handgun. He proved in court as an expert witness for the defense (by demonstration with a rubber knife) how fast a knife attacker could close in and cut someone with a holstered gun. It does blow yer mind to thunk how much of a disadvantage you really are at when attacked by a knife welding assassin.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I think you miss my point. Again.

    Well, if you think Big Chief missed your point, then clarify it a bit.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Does Texas have a "Stand Yer Pump" law...........:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,187 Senior Member
    Please tell me it wasn't a 270.................
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    orchidman wrote: »
    Please tell me it wasn't a 270.................

    If it was it, would have blown him clear across the Red River into Oklahoma!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Well, if you think Big Chief missed your point, then clarify it a bit.
    I responded after you, so... guess who I was talking to? If I was responding to Big Chief, I'd have quoted him. Like I'm doing to you.
    Overkill is underrated.
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